Marciano's Brutal KO of hard punching Rex layne

[Elmer Ray]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP3UManJNsw

Brutal delayed reaction knockout! SuzieQ finds its mark


Marciano KO 6 Rex layne


marciano knocks out 34-1 young contender rex layne. remember this was the layne who had taken bob satterfields best punches and one marciano right hand knocked layne out cold

[Dan1213]

[kikibalt]

[HE Grant]

and Rex Layne's accomplishments as a world class heavyweight were ...

seperate note: very nice photo.

[greek1237]

Rex Layne were beating Ezzard Charles. knocking out Bob Shatterfiled and a win over Walcott.

[bodyblow]

the win over charles was a robbery

[greek1237]

Well Robbery or no, It these are his accomplishments at the world class level. Of the top of my head of couse, I not going to look up his record lol.

[Dan1213]

Marciano 35-0-0 (30) vs Layne 34-1-2 (23)

[Elmer Ray]

and Rex Layne's accomplishments as a world class heavyweight were ...

seperate note: very nice photo.

ahh he was 34-1 and top ranked contender when he fought marciano. coming into the marciano fight....Layne won a clear unanimous decision over jersey joe walcott in a huge upset( i have film) and layne had climbed off the canvas and taken his best punches to knockout huge punching bob satterfield with one huge right hand(i have the film) in one of the best slugouts of the 1950s.....and layne had beaten turkey thompson and cesar brion.


6'1 195lb rex Layne had a powerful right hand, decent jab, great stamina, very strong and physical, solid chin entering the marciano fight and he was picked as the favorite to beat marciano. he made up for his poor defense and crude skills with sheer power and strength.


overall rex layne beat two linear HW champions jersey joe walcott and ezzard charles. not bad.


i dont think too much of rex layne but at his peak he was a pretty dangerous contender. he was too crude to be a world beater though, he didnt have time to develop defense because he was being thrown in vs the wolves

[Elmer Ray]

"

"Throw out the record book on Layne, he was a rugged brawler with a quick, very heavy right. As he got shopworn and discouraged, more and more, he got outworked and beaten down.

But, when he first raged out of Utah -- full of piss and vinegar -- he'd have been a handful for anybody. He could crack with that right." - John Garfield

[Elmer Ray]

In the October, 1950 issue of Ring, Nat Fleischer had this to say about Layne:
“Layne looms as the outstanding prospect west of the Mississippi. He is a hard hitter...Layne has what it takes to be developed into the next world heavyweight king. He can hit and has an abundance of courage.”

[HE Grant]

Does Layne's wins over Walcott and Charles say more about Layne or Marciano?

[kikibalt]

In the October, 1950 issue of Ring, Nat Fleischer had this to say about Layne:
“Layne looms as the outstanding prospect west of the Mississippi. He is a hard hitter...Layne has what it takes to be developed into the next world heavyweight king. He can hit and has an abundance of courage.”

But he had very little skills, see the way he carried his hands, LOW! LOW!, we used to call that carrying you hands in your pockets. no wonder he got ko a few time.

[Elmer Ray]

oh i agree frank. layne was quite crude and had pittiful defense

[Elmer Ray]

Does Layne's wins over Walcott and Charles say more about Layne or Marciano?

why should i even bother replying? you never have anything good to say about marciano, we know you dont think much of the man at all.


you even said archie moore gave marciano a close fight, when marciano knocked moore down 5 times, and won 6 out of the 8 rounds, yet moore gave marciano trouble?

[Elmer Ray]

but if u want my honest opinion.........charles was robbed vs layne, and walcott showed up overconfident and out of shape vs layne as a 5-1 favorite(much like charles did against valdez in 53) and layne outworked him. good preformance by layne though, i have the fight on film.

[hawk5ins]

issue of the RIng, Nat Fleischer ALSO had this to say about Rocky Marciano:

"If greatness, an attribute every Pugilist aims to acquire. is measured by what we know Rocky possesses, then he must be classed as a great fighter. But if the TRUE qualities of greatness are considered, he is outranked by many of his predecessors. What are such qualities?

1-Ability to out box boxers to out punch punchers.
2-Ring, generalship.
3-Durability

Marciano cannot outbox anyone. He must rely on durability to outlast smarter and frailer opponents. He;s easy to hit, too easy to cut.

His arms are too short for him to be a boxer. He knows nothing about the art of feinting and counter-punching, assets possessed to a high degree by such masters as Johnson, Tunney and Loughran.

He has faced very few real punchers during his career. The two best, Walcott and Moore, both thirty eight years old at the time-had Rocky on the canvas. Joe Louis is NOT to be included since when he met Rocky, the Brown Bomber had long since lost ins once devastating punch.

THe calibre of opponents is most important in evaluating greatness.

A Billy Graham or a Lulu Perez looked like great boxers agianst lesser opponents but pitted agianst the top men of their class, their short comings in other assets were shown up and their boxing ability alone was offset by the abilities other better opponents of theirs possesed.

Is Rocky Marciano a great fighter who can take his place as one of the ten ranking heavyweights of all time?

Based on the above analysis, the answer is no. He's one of the greatest since Corbett defeated Sullivan in hitting power only. Beyond that he lacks the essentials that add up to greatness."

If we are quoting Nat about the worth of Rex Layne, the I suppose we need to also quote him about his evaluation of Marciano, JUST following the Archie Moore bout as well.

Hawk

[kikibalt]

Hawk

Elmer is not going to like that.

[Dan1213]

issue of the RIng, Nat Fleischer ALSO had this to say about Rocky Marciano:

"If greatness, an attribute every Pugilist aims to acquire. is measured by what we know Rocky possesses, then he must be classed as a great fighter. But if the TRUE qualities of greatness are considered, he is outranked by many of his predecessors. What are such qualities?

1-Ability to out box boxers to out punch punchers.
2-Ring, generalship.
3-Durability

Marciano cannot outbox anyone. He must rely on durability to outlast smarter and frailer opponents. He;s easy to hit, too easy to cut.

His arms are too short for him to be a boxer. He knows nothing about the art of feinting and counter-punching, assets possessed to a high degree by such masters as Johnson, Tunney and Loughran.

He has faced very few real punchers during his career. The two best, Walcott and Moore, both thirty eight years old at the time-had Rocky on the canvas. Joe Louis is NOT to be included since when he met Rocky, the Brown Bomber had long since lost ins once devastating punch.

THe calibre of opponents is most important in evaluating greatness.

A Billy Graham or a Lulu Perez looked like great boxers agianst lesser opponents but pitted agianst the top men of their class, their short comings in other assets were shown up and their boxing ability alone was offset by the abilities other better opponents of their peers possesed.

Is Rocky Marciano a great fighter who can take his place as one of the ten ranking heavyweights of all time?

Based on the above analysis, the answer is no. He's one of the greatest since Corbett defeated Sullivan in hitting power only. Beyond that he lacks the essentials that add up to greatness."

If we are quoting Nat about the worth of Rex Layne, the I suppose we need to also quote him about his evaluation of Marciano, JUST following the Archie Moore bout as well.

Hawk

Hawk, Nat must have lost it in 1958 when he put out his all-time list of top 10fighters by weight class. How did Marciano make his top 10?

HEAVYWEIGHTS
1. Jack Johnson
2. James J. Jeffries
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Jack Dempsey
5. James J. Corbett
6. Joe Louis
7. Sam Langford
8. Gene Tunney
9. Max Schmeling
10. Rocky Marciano

LIGHT HAEAVYWEIGHTS
1. Kid McCoy
2. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
3. Jack Dillon
4. Tommy Loughran
5. Jack Root
6. Battling Levinsky
7. Georges Carpentier
8. Tommy Gibbons
9. Jack Delaney
10. Paul Berlenbach

MIDDLEWEIGHTS
1. Stanley Ketchel
2. Tommy Ryan
3. Harry Greb
4. Mickey Walker
5. Ray Robinson
6. Frank Klaus
7. Billy Papke
8. Les Darcy
9. Mike Gibbons
10. Jeff Smith

WELTERWEIGHTS
1. Joe Walcott
2. Mysterious Billy Smith
3. Jack Britton
4. Ted (Kid) Lewis
5. Dixie Kid
6. Harry Lewis
7. Willie Lewis
8. Henry Armstrong
9. Barney Ross
10. Jimmy McLarnin









LIGHTWEIGHTS
1. Joe Gans
2. Benny Leonard
3. Owen Moran
4. Freddie Welsh
5. Battling Nelson
6. George (Kid) Lavigne
7. Tony Canzoneri
8. Willie Ritchie
9. Lew Tendler
10. Charley White

FEATHERWEIGHTS
1. Terry McGovern
2. Jim Driscoll
3. Abe Attell
4. Johnny Dundee
5. Johnny Kilbane
6. Kid Chocolate
7. Willie Pep
8. Young Griffo
9. George (KO) Chaney
10. Louis (Kid) Kaplan

BANTAMWEIGHTS
1. George Dixon
2. Pete Herman
3. Kid Williams
4. Joe Lynch
5. Charles (Bud) Taylor
6. Johnny Coulon
7. Memphis Pal Moore
8. Frankie Burns
9. Eddie Campi
10. Panama Al Brown

FLYWEIGHTS
1. Jimmy Wilde
2. Pancho Villa
3. Frankie Genaro
4. Fidel LaBarba
5. Benny Lynch
6. Elky Clark
7. Johnny Buff
8. Midget Wolgast
9. Peter Kane
10. Pascual Perez

[Dan1213]

Here is Charlie Rose's list from 1968.

HEAVYWEIGHTS
1. Sam Langford
2. Jack Johnson
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Joe Louis
5. James J. Jeffries
6. Gene Tunney
7. Sam McVey
8. Rocky Marciano
9. James J. Corbett
10. Max Baer

LIGHT HAEAVYWEIGHTS
1. Bob Fitzsimmons
2. Jack Dillon
3. Philaelphia Jack O'Brien
4. Tommy Loughran
5. Tommy Gibbons
6. Paul Berlenbach
7. Archie Moore
8. Georges Carpentier
9. Jack Root
10. Mike McTigue

MIDDLEWEIGHTS
1. Stanley Ketchel
2. Harry Greb
3. Mickey Walker
4. Mike Gibbons
5. Tiger Flowers
6. Eddie McGoorty
7. Jeff Smith
8. Dick Tiger
9. Frank Klaus
10. Billy Papke

WELTERWEIGHTS
1. Joe Walcott
2. Ray Robinson
3. Jack Britton
4. Ted (Kid) Lewis
5. Jimmy McLarnin
6. Henry Armstrong
7. Jimmy Clabby
8. Packey McFarland
9. Barney Ross
10. Matt Wells

LIGHTWEIGHTS
1. Benny Leonard
2. Joe Gans
3. Jack Blackburn
4. Willie Ritchie
5. Freddie Welsh
6. Tony Canzoneri
7. Mexican Joe Rivers
8. Battling Nelson
9. Ad Wolgast
10. Leach Cross

FEATHERWEIGHTS
1. Abe Attell
2. Johnny Dundee
3. Jim Driscoll
4. Kid Chocolate
5. Owen Moran
6. Eugene Criqui
7. Johnny Kilbane
8. Young Corbett
9. Frankie Neil
10. Willie Pep

BANTAMWEIGHTS
1. Terry McGovern
2. George Dixon
3. Pete Herman
4. Kid Williams
5. Abe Goldstein
6. Charley (Phil) Rosenberg
7. Johnny Coulon
8. Panama Al Brown
9. Charles (Bud) Taylor
10. Harry Harris

FLYWEIGHTS
1. Jimmy Wilde
2. Pancho Villa
3. Fidel LaBarba
4. Frankie Genaro
5. Corp. Izzy Schwartz
6. Johnny Rosner
7. Johnny Buff
8. Baby Arizmendi
9. Frankie Mason
10. Young Zulu Kid

[hawk5ins]

And given that Rocky had no bouts with which to reevaluate his position, it makes even less sense.

His early depeiction of Layne, I could see him making future retractions on his comments as he was able to see that Layne really wasn;t all that and a bag of chips.

But the change of heart about Marciano, I agree, with no subsequent fights to take into consideration, makes very little sense.

So either, we do NOT hold Fleischer's word as gospel and thus not put a whole lot of stock into what comments he did make about a Rex Layne or we DO hold him to his word and then wrestle with his inconsistant changing of his mind.

Years later, following FRAZIER ALI I, he stated that Ali/Clay would never make his top 10 heavyweight list, as no way could Ali beat Marciano. But as YOU very astutely pointed out, Nat DOES change his mind. ANd he doesn't need any bouts with which to do so!

Had Nat NOT died in 72 and seen Ali's wins over Foreman to regain the title, does he change his mind on ALI?

WHO Knows? I try to take Nat's word with a whole dash of salt personally.

Hawk

[Elmer Ray]

great points hawk. i dont think much of fleischer, hes extremley biased. i thought i would just share that rex layne quote simply because there are alot of fleischer supporters out there.


but in a way i wont hold that fleischers quote about layne that much. john garfields quote about layne means much more, do u agree?

[Elmer Ray]

i put a whole lot of stock about wut john garfield put about layne though

[hawk5ins]

The pith or the vinegar?

Hawk

[raylawpc]

When it comes to boxing, its not just a woman's right to change her mind.

For years, I assumed that Mickey Walker would have defeated Benny Leonard had they met as scheduled in 1924. After our thread, and my more detailed research that accompanied all the responses, I think Benny would have outpointed Mickey.

[Elmer Ray]

so what does everyone think of the KO

[Dan1213]

And given that Rocky had no bouts with which to reevaluate his position, it makes even less sense.

His early depeiction of Layne, I could see him making future retractions on his comments as he was able to see that Layne really wasn;t all that and a bag of chips.

But the change of heart about Marciano, I agree, with no subsequent fights to take into consideration, makes very little sense.

So either, we do NOT hold Fleischer's word as gospel and thus not put a whole lot of stock into what comments he did make about a Rex Layne or we DO hold him to his word and then wrestle with his inconsistant changing of his mind.

Years later, following FRAZIER ALI I, he stated that Ali/Clay would never make his top 10 heavyweight list, as no way could Ali beat Marciano. But as YOU very astutely pointed out, Nat DOES change his mind. ANd he doesn't need any bouts with which to do so!

Had Nat NOT died in 72 and seen Ali's wins over Foreman to regain the title, does he change his mind on ALI?

WHO Knows? I try to take Nat's word with a whole dash of salt personally.

Hawk

Hawk, its interesting that Marciano was elected into The Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1959. Possibly Fleischer put his all-time list together in 1958 as part of his evaluation, of not only Marciano, but all retired fighters in the eight traditional weight classes. Maybe that explains his complete turn-around regarding Marciano's status as an all-time great. Food for thought!

[Dan1213]

I received a private message asking me to list The Ring's Hall of Fame selections. Here they are.

[hawk5ins]

I have NO issue with anyone changing thier minds.

My point of bringing out this article was two fold: A-If you are going to quote Fleischer as if to illustrate what the value of his word means, then you need to be able to value everything. And B-Nat's propensity to change his mind as well. What he thinks one year, is not something that can be bottled throughout time.

I thank Dan for doing my next step whihc was to trot out Nat's rankings of the heavyweight division from 1958. I was in the process of pulling out Fleischer's book 50 Years at Ringside, when Dan posted the rankings.

The point of my doing that was to show that indeed What Nat says in year XXXX is not necessarily going to be the case in year YYYY.

I've always found it funny that critics of Muhammad Ali will point to the article by Nat in which he says following Ali's loss to Frazier that Ali would never be among the top 10 heavyweights, becuase he could never beat Marciano.

Given that Nat died a year after that article was published and the fact that he never saw Ali go on to beat Foreman, we don;t know if he ever would have changed his mind. The arguement that Nat saw Ali at his best (the 60's) so why would he change his mind if he saw the Foreman bout, is essentially my point about his view of Marciano in 1955 and then in 1958. Rocky had NO bouts over that time frame and he went from a seemingly very firm position that Marciano was NOT worthy of being a top 10 heavyweight or an All time great, to just that, three years and zero bouts later.

So who KNOWS if Nat changes his mind if he lives a few more years.

Maybe he does and maybe he doesn;t. But history has shown us that he is very prone to do just that: change his mind. No matter how solid his previous position was.

Hawk

[raylawpc]

so what does everyone think of the KO

Ha! That was the original topic wasn't it? (We sure do it sidetracked, don't we! )

But what can you say about it? Regardless of what one thinks of Marciano, that was one devastating punch! But it wasn't the first in that fight. One newspaper report says that a Marciano punch in an earlier round shattered Layne's bridgework!