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Thread: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

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    The Greatest Fighter of All-Time



    The question is often asked, “Who’s the greatest fighter of all-time?” Is it Muhammad Ali? No. Is it Joe Louis? No. The answer to that question is Sugar Ray Robinson.

    The man we know as Sugar Ray Robinson, was born Walker Smith, Jr. on May 3, 1921 in Ailey, Georgia. He got into boxing at the age of twelve when he moved to Harlem, New York. It was at Harlem Gym, where he trained. Two years later, he entered a tournament, but was told that he needed an AAU Card. Smith then borrowed a card from a friend, whose name was Ray Robinson. When people saw Robinson box at that time, they commented that his style was “sweet as sugar.” After that he became known Sugar Ray Robinson.

    By 1940, Robinson had an amateur record 84-1, which includes winning the New York Golden Gloves Championship. His only lost was to Billy Graham. One of his wins even includes the legendary Willie Pep. Later that year, he turned professional. By 1943, Robinson was undefeated with a 40-0 record. Unfortunately, Robinson suffered his first defeat against Jake LaMatta in a rematch of a 1942 fight, which Robinson won by decision. In this rematch, not only did Robinson lose by decision, but was also put down for the first time in his career in the 8th round. By 1946, Robinson had a record of 73-1-1. It was later that year that Robinson received a shot at the Welterweight Championship of the World, against then champion Tommy Bell. Robinson won the fight by receiving a 15 round decision. Robinson’s last defense of the welterweight belt came against Charley Fusari. Robinson won the fight by decision. After winning that fight, Robinson vacated the welterweight belt, to move up a weightclass, the Middleweight Division.

    By 1951, Robinson had a very impressive record of 120-1-2. On February 14 on that same year, Robinson and Jake LaMatta had their sixth fight, but this time for the Middleweight Championship of the World. Robinson won that fight, by TKO in the 13th round. This was the final fight between the two, a fight known as the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre. The rivalry ended with Robinson winning five out of six fights. After winning the middleweight belt, Robinson went on a European tour. During one of his fights in London, he lost the middleweight title to Randy Turpin. However, Robinson won the title back when knocked out Turpin in 10 rounds, three months later. In 1952, Robinson moved up another weightclass to take on Light-Heavyweight Champion Joey Maxim. The fight took place at Yankee Stadium in 104 degree weather. Robinson was way ahead on the scorecards. However, before the start of the 13th round, Robinson collapsed, and was unable to answer the bell. This was the first and only knockout loss of his career. After that fight, Robinson retired with a 131-3-1, and decided to go into show business. While in show business, he sang and tap danced. However, after a few years, things weren’t going well for him, and he had no choice, but to get back in the ring. He made his in-ring return in 1955. It was during that year, that Robinson won his third middleweight title, by defeating Bobo Olson. In 1957, Robinson lost the belt to Gene Fullmer. However, later that year, Robinson won the rematch by KO in the 5th round, by a picture perfect left hook. This fight made him a four time middleweight champion. During the remainder of the year and early 1958, Robinson had a few fights against Carmen Basilio. Basilio won the first fight, and the middleweight belt. Robinson won the rematch and the middleweight belt for the fifth time.

    By the 1960’s Robinson was fighting some unknown guys, he even fought Fullmer for the forth time, trying to get his sixth middleweight championship, but was unsuccessful. Robinson’s final fight was in 1965 against Joey Archer, which Archer won by decision. After this fight Robinson retired for good, with a 173-19-6 (108 KO’s) record, having 200 fights. A month after his last fight, Robinson was honored in New York’s Madison Square Garden, with a trophy. The crowd gave him a stand ovation.

    For the remainder of his life, Robinson was diagnosed with diabetes. He also suffered from drug addiction. During Robinson’s final years, he was diagnosed with alzheimer’s disease. Robinson died on April 12, 1989 at age 67.

    In conclusion, there were many boxers to grace their presences in the squared circle, but Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest of them all. He was truly the perfect boxer, having speed, power, etc. He was a One-Time Welterweight Champion, and a Five-Time Middleweight Champion. He is considered by many as the greatest, including Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali, who stated, “I’m the greatest heavyweight of all time, but Robinson is pound for pound, the greatest.” Sugar Ray Robinson is truly the greatest of all time. Sugar Ray Robinson: R.I.P.: 1921-1989…..you are truly the greatest and will be sourly missed.

    by: Chris E.

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    Great Article....

    Summary

    Had a great amateur record....then great pro record....defended many times, had many belts in different divisions,,,beat great fighters....even rematches...had all the skills, speed, strenght, chin, heart....

    I guess that sumz up why he is the greatest of all time.

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    I always thought that Robbie was undefeated in the amateurs, like Ezzard Charles and Ricardo Lopez. Well, live and learn. PeteLeo.

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo
    I always thought that Robbie was undefeated in the amateurs, like Ezzard Charles and Ricardo Lopez. Well, live and learn. PeteLeo.
    NEW YORK GOLDEN GLOVES (Represented Salem-Crescent A.C.)

    1938
    118-lb. junior

    Jan 29 Thomas Polizzi Good Sheherd A. C. W KO 2
    Feb 4 Bobby Ruffin Bennet A.C. W PTS 3
    Feb 16 Pasquale Pesca St. Nicholas Arena L PTS 3

    Apr 11 Ed Cappelli New York W KO 1
    (Metropolitan AAU Boxing Championship)

    1939
    126-lb. open

    Feb 13 Alfredo Guido 92nd Street YMCA W PTS 3
    Feb 22 Patrick Brady Columbus Council Hall W KO 1
    Feb 28 Frank Arcidiacano Hippodrome W PTS 3
    Mar 6 Louis Valentine Madison Square Garden W PTS 3

    126-lb open Eastern Regionals

    Mar 13 Armann Dascenza Madison Square Garden W KO 1
    Mar 13 Edward Dowell Madison Square Garden W PTS 3
    Mar 14 Bob Fisher Madison Square Garden W KO 1
    Mar 14 Mario Centi Madison Square Garden W PTS 3

    126-lb open Inter-City

    Mar 29 Tony Ancona Chicago Stadium W PTS 3

    1940
    135-LB OPEN

    Jan 25 Woodrow Tolliver Oddfellows Hall W KO 2
    Jan 30 Drew a bye Oddfellows Hall
    Feb 2 Michael Solicito St. Anslem's Church W KO 2
    Feb 7 William Wolfe Ridgewood Grove W KO 1
    Feb 14 Bellesandro Carubia Bronx Coliseum W KO 3
    Feb 19 Andrew Nonella Madison Square Garden W KO 1

    135-lb open Eastern Regionals

    Mar 4 Joe Vidulich Bronx Coliseum W KO 1
    Mar 5 Howard Hettrich Bronx Coliseum W KO 1
    Mar 6 Steve Kukol Madison Square Garden W PTS 3
    Mar 6 Jimmy Butler Madison Square Garden W KO 1

    135-lb open Inter-City

    Mar 18 Tony Ancona Madison Square Garden W KO 3

    Apr 15 Frank (Smokey) Robinson Rochester, NY W PTS 5
    Sep 5 Joseph Smalls New York, NY W KO 1

    COMPILED BY JOHN GRASSO (Former Director of IBRO).
    http://www.ibroresearch.com/Boxing%2...binson_ray.htm

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    Pete

    I'm right there with you.

    I know I had read, and always beleived it to be accurate, that Robby as an amateur was something absurd like 85-0-0 with 69 ko's, 40 of them in the first round.

    Now we see that there is a loss in that amatuer resume.

    Interesting indeed.

    Hawk

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    thanks, dan 1213.

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    Robbie, the greatest Welter/middle of all time. But NO way the greatest fighter. That belongs to the greatest Heavyweight, which I think was Ali.

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    Why

    Do we have to do this agian?

    Walsh, there are folks on this site who BELEIVE that pound for pound is an applicable term that can be used to determine what fighter is better than others regardless of weight class.

    You don't.

    We get that. AGAIN.

    What is the point in trying to inject your opinion on the validity of the term every time a thread is started as it pertains to who's better, who's best pound for pound?

    Your point has been made. Multiple times. Is it necessary to repeat it everytime someone wants to have this discussion and in every thread?

    Sheesh.

    Hawk

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    Re: Pete

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    I'm right there with you.

    I know I had read, and always beleived it to be accurate, that Robby as an amateur was something absurd like 85-0-0 with 69 ko's, 40 of them in the first round.

    Now we see that there is a loss in that amatuer resume.

    Interesting indeed.

    Hawk
    Interesting that the article references a loss to Billy Graham and the record supplied by Dan notes a loss to Pasquale Pesca. Maybe there were two losses?

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    Re: Pete

    Quote Originally Posted by raylawpc
    Interesting that the article references a loss to Billy Graham and the record supplied by Dan notes a loss to Pasquale Pesca. Maybe there were two losses?
    When Ray was 13, he engaged in a number of fights for Benny Booksinger who ran boxing shows for the Police Athletic League. During one of the shows in Greenwich at the Greenwich House he lost a three-round decision to Billy Graham. He fought under his real name - Walker Smith, Jr.

    At age 15 he went to the Salem-Crescent Athletic Club where he met George Gainford. In order to fight in amateur shows you had to be age 16 and have an AAU card. Walker Smith convinced Gainford he could handle himself because of his experience in the PAL. One night Gainford needed a flyweight and Smith convinced him to give him a chance. Gainford pulled out the AAU card of one of his inactive flyweights (Ray Robinson) and the rest is history.
    Last edited by Dan1213; 04-30-2007 at 01:03 PM.

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    Thanks, Dan, for the clarification!

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    Re: Why

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    Do we have to do this agian?


    Your point has been made. Multiple times. Is it necessary to repeat it everytime someone wants to have this discussion and in every thread?

    Sheesh.

    Hawk
    Yes every time. I gotta' nail it home. Some folks just gotta be told!!!!

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    And for the record. I never once mentioned p4p in my reply. I just don't think Robbie was the G.O.A.T!!!!

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    Robbie was the best ----He beat LaMotta 4 times when he was outweighed by Jake He fought and beat a lot of Middleweights when he was a welter and gave up size. I actually have the weights for him and his opponents and it is amazing that he won so many in row like that. In my opinion, he is the best of the best.

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    From what I have seen he is the most complete and versatile fighter ever. He had more skills and attributes than any other fighter I've seen. I loved his ability to throw punches with such ease from all angles, looped and straight, uppercuts. All together with great power and speed. Chin of steel, stamina unreal and one hell of a heart.

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    Sigh

    "Robbie, the greatest Welter/middle of all time. But NO way the greatest fighter. That belongs to the greatest Heavyweight, which I think was Ali."

    "And for the record. I never once mentioned p4p in my reply. I just don't think Robbie was the G.O.A.T!!!!"

    If pound for pound has NOTHING to do with this "point" of yours, then why make the statement that Only a Heavyweight could be considered the fighter of all time?

    You feel the need to "nail it home. And some folks gotta be told"?

    No one is exactly unclear what your viewpoint is. I guess I don;t see the need to mention this opinion of yours evertime someone would like to have a discussion about the best fighter(s).

    No one here needs to be "told" anything.

    This isn't a class and I'm affraid you lack the qualifications of a teacher. Specifically in this subject.

    No offense meant.

    Hawk

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    Quote Originally Posted by walshb
    From what I have seen he is the most complete and versatile fighter ever. He had more skills and attributes than any other fighter I've seen. I loved his ability to throw punches with such ease from all angles, looped and straight, uppercuts. All together with great power and speed. Chin of steel, stamina unreal and one hell of a heart.
    If you favor Ali, why do you describe Robinson in such glowing terms (I ask tongue firmly planted in cheek)? You discount Robinson yet everything you write here applies equally to him.
    Last edited by raylawpc; 05-01-2007 at 11:27 AM.

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    Quote Originally Posted by walshb
    I just don't think Robbie was the G.O.A.T!!!!
    Horses on the other thread and goats on this one. Geez, I think this message board is going to the dogs . . .

    (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

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    Ray

    Do NOT expect me to laugh at that line Ray. I don;t care how funny it is.

    My "straight from the horses mouth" got nearly zero recognition or appreciation.

    So don't expect me to reciprocate!

    Now if you don't mind, I have some more pouting to do.

    Hawk

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    Why so crabby? Stubborn as a mule. Makes me think you're some kind of snake. Crocodile tears.

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    Oh yeah

    You are just a Troll...which really makes no sense.

    Unless a troll is part man and part animal.

    In whihc case, I'd put you on ESPN's list.

    At around the 30 spot. Which puts you ahead of Dempsey, Horses and some non heavyweights on their list.

    Hawk

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    I am not a troll. I am an Ogre. Which is humanoid.... does that get me on the list?

    I'd'a had Dempsey for breakfast. And Secretariat for lunch (and since I ate lunch today at Burger King, I may well have already had Secretariat for lunch....).

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Cornwell
    Walker "The Goat" Smith
    I can see why he changed kept the name. Sugar Ray Robinson sounds ever so much better!!

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    Quote Originally Posted by raylawpc
    If you favor Ali, why do you describe Robinson in such glowing terms (I ask tongue firmly planted in cheek)? You discount Robinson yet everything you write here applies equally to him.
    I favor Ali in the sense that I think he was the greatest fighter that ever lived and in a one off fight situation, peak V peak, I do not see any man in history beating him. Regarding Robbie, I think he was the greatest Welter/middle I have ever witnessed as well as the most complete all round talent I have ever seen. Do I think he was a greater fighter than Ali, NO.
    I don't believe I have to say he was a greater fighter than Ali or Louis or Marciano etc just because I feel he had more boxing qualities than these guys. As far as perfection goes in a fighter, Robbie is the closest I have seen to being perfect. He possessed the greatest attributes and skills of any fighter I have seen. I don't think I could be more complimentary of the guy.
    Still rate him behind Ali, Louis and all the other great heavyweight champions.

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    Re: Sigh

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    "Robbie, the greatest Welter/middle of all time. But NO way the greatest fighter. That belongs to the greatest Heavyweight, which I think was Ali."

    "And for the record. I never once mentioned p4p in my reply. I just don't think Robbie was the G.O.A.T!!!!"

    If pound for pound has NOTHING to do with this "point" of yours, then why make the statement that Only a Heavyweight could be considered the fighter of all time?

    You feel the need to "nail it home. And some folks gotta be told"?

    No one is exactly unclear what your viewpoint is. I guess I don;t see the need to mention this opinion of yours evertime someone would like to have a discussion about the best fighter(s).

    No one here needs to be "told" anything.

    This isn't a class and I'm affraid you lack the qualifications of a teacher. Specifically in this subject.

    No offense meant.

    Hawk
    None taken Hawk. Again I was having the banter. No offense meant.
    This topic is GREATEST FIGHTER EVER, not p4p best. I happen to think Robbie was NOT the greatest and p4p has zero to do with my choice. p4p is a whole different topic and as you pointed out, everyone knows my views on p4p.

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    No matter how many times you try and explain you stance it doesn't make sense. You rate the great heavyweights above Robinson simply beacause they would beat him. Well then what about the non great heavyweights, where do you rate them? Because there are plenty of them that would surely beat Robinson too.

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    You Know Walsh

    THe Thread's purpose was about who was the best fighter REGARDLESS of weight class, which implies Pound for Pound. You know that. Don;t act ignorant or oblivious to the fact.

    And if you don't believe that was the intent, then here is a quote from the orginal Post: "He is considered by many as the greatest, including Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali, who stated, “I’m the greatest heavyweight of all time, but Robinson is pound for pound, the greatest.” Sugar Ray Robinson is truly the greatest of all time."

    Actual Ignorance often outweighs "pretend" Ignorance.

    So I think it would be appreciated if you knock it off with the whole "irrationalization" that you continually do whenever this type of discussion comes up. Again. We GET your position. No need to jam it down everyone's throat agian and agian.

    Some posters might actually enjoy such a thread without your constant hijacking of it to "Yes every time. I gotta' nail it home. Some folks just gotta be told!!!!" Your words. Not mine.

    Hawk

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    No Gazot, I rate the great heavyweights as the greatest fighters because I personally prefer watching a 15-16 stone man perform the art of boxing with such skill, strength and beauty and I believe that this talent is greater than the talents of men at 11 and 12 and 9 and 8 stone. It's really that simple.

    Hawk, for once forget p4p and weight class and all that and listen or should I say read. You are the very one who knocks others for not reading posts. Now you are all of a sudden a mind reader and believe I'm being deliberately ignorant. Again the thread is 'greatest fighter ever'. You say Robbie. I say Ali.
    Show a little dignity and class and try accept that though my choice is possibly in the minority, it'[s still worthy of a thought. After all he wasn't three times heavyweight champion of the world in the heavyweight division in it's toughest decades for nothing. That alone elevates him IMO.
    And to keep you happy Hawk, I will rate Robbie as the finest example of perfection in the art of boxing there has ever been. Call it p4p or whatever you like.

    And finally, lighten the hell up and don't take every comment so seriously.
    You are such a bloody crank. At times I will say things that almost everyone can ascertain it's a bit of banter, but not you, you take it literally. You are the only POSTER that does this. I think you will find we will all get along better. I enjoy reading your posts as they are extremely knowledgeable, but tone down on the constant correcting and the need to continuously point out my or others mistakes or 'poor judgement' or lack of factual information.
    The CBZ is not just a boxing forum. It's an educational site also. I'm learning anyway and that's from engaging with others in topics on the sport I love.

    So that's it. Ali is my choice as the greatest fighter ever. Nothing more and nothing less and ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with weight classes or p4p!!!
    Last edited by walshb; 05-02-2007 at 08:00 AM.

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    Re: The Greatest Fighter of All-Time

    Oh, by the way. I have no problem being corrected or told I'm wrong Hawk.
    But there's a way to show someone the errors of their way. Don't rub it in so much.

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    THe mental image

    Of a "bloody crank", doesn't sit well with me.

    One would think that with all the time I spend with my sarcasm and (obviously ineffective) levity, that It would be clear I'm not that wound up.

    Walsh, You knew what the thread was about. And you made it clear that you feel the need to "nail it home. Some folks just gotta be told"

    So this isn't about not having your opinion rescpected. It's about YOU wanting to Ram your opinion down everyone's throat.

    If you had never aired you POSITION about "pound for pound being complete bs" as you put it and merely stated that you beleive that Ali was the best ever, I may not agree, but I COULD respect your postion. There ARE historians who hold the same belief.

    The problem Is and always has been, that you state that NO fighter below Heavyweight could be the best ever, for the simple reason that they are NOT heavyweights. That position, is IMO absurd.

    Walsh, read YOUR OWN posts. Out of one side of your mouth, you say the following: "Hawk, for once forget p4p and weight class and all that and listen or should I say read.......Ali is my choice as the greatest fighter ever. Nothing more and nothing less and ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with weight classes or p4p!!!"

    Well that would be fine, if it were true and your position had NOTHING to do with weight class.

    But then you say the following, IN THE SAME FLIPPING POST: "I rate the great heavyweights as the greatest fighters because I personally prefer watching a 15-16 stone man perform the art of boxing with such skill, strength and beauty and I believe that this talent is greater than the talents of men at 11 and 12 and 9 and 8 stone. It's really that simple."

    Walsh. Are you getting where I'm coming from here? Do I REALLY need to connect the dots for you?

    I AM reading what you wrote. I personally don't believe you are Reading what YOU wrote.

    Hawk

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