Holmes' Jab vs. Liston's Jab

[Rafael]

I wonder what the consensus is here about who had the better jab between Sonny and Larry. My take is that Liston's jab was probably stronger and more thudding than Larry's, but, on the other hand, I believe that Larry's was a little faster and utilized more consistently and efficiently than Sonny's. Larry pretty much generated all of his offense off the jab, whereas Sonny sometimes did a lot of chasing trying to land a big punch and forgot about his formidable jab. What's your take?

[hawk5ins]

I always broke it down this way:

Ali had the fastest Jab
Liston had the hardest Jab

Holmes, combined both aspects and while not quite as fast as Muhammad's or quite as hard as Liston's, it was a more balanced, amd IMO a perfect jab.

I'm a "Holmser" as it is. I'll go with Larry's.

Hawk

[timayres]

The way you describe it, Holmes does sound like the best of both worlds.

[walshb]

But more importantly, what would you rather get hit with?


I say Holmes overall was better, more accurate too

[Petey]

Somebody once timed Larry's jab at 110 MPH...

[Rafael]

Somebody once timed Larry's jab at 110 MPH...

So during the Mercer fight it was like a car going at that speed hitting a tree stump....

[wolgast]

I would not want to get hit by Liston under any circumstances!

[PeteLeo]

Can I say Paris Hilton? PeteLeo.

[Rafael]

I would not want to get hit by Liston under any circumstances!

Speaking of this, I finally watched that Liston-Besmanoff fight and was shocked by the amount of flush shots Besmanoff took from Sonny w/o even wobbling. Did that man have a chin or what? And it's not like he was a cutesy guy slipping and sliding away from Sonny's shots. He was standing right there taking the punches!

[HE Grant]

It's no contest as Holmes jab was much faster. You talk jabs you talk Larry Holmes first and foremost.

[rocky111]

Got to disagree!!!!!!!!!! No one had a jab better than Sonny Listons. Combine that with his reach and you have a monster. I rate Alis jab in that class also because of his speed and what he could bring behind it, along with his movement. Foreman when he used it had a great jab also and I think had he used it more,its possible no one would have beaten him in his prime. Holmes had a good jab and he could throw it all nite and of the modern heavies Id rank it about forth behind those three. But I dont think anyone had the jab of Liston, no one in history. You could get through the jabs of Ali or Holmes but no one walks through Sonnys jab.

[HE Grant]

You could not walk through it but faster fighters could avoid it as Ali and Machen did.

Larry's was significantly better than Ali's which often lacked snap.

[hawk5ins]

Not sure who is arguing that you "couldn't walk through Listons jab". It had unbleivable power and THUD to it.

But it could be avoided by fast guys as Evan just said.

Liston's reach was accentuated by his wide shoulders as well. From Armpit to Finger tip, which was not measured in the 50's and 60's only wingspan was, I would think that Holmes', Ali's and Liston's are all in about the same ball park. Slight edge maybe to Sonny.

If wre are discussing a jab that has all the qualities wrapped up into one, I would make the case for Holmes' becuase it WAS harder than Ali;s and WAS faster than Liston's.

Just my opinion.

Hawk

[hawk5ins]

had an excellent jab, but he never really dominated with it. It certainly was an effective weapon for him though. One he under utilized.

But when you were fighting the way he was when he reached the championship level in his first career, the jab almost was a waste of time.

I guess the diefinition of what is "better" needs to be clearly defined here.

And I echo the point about Joiner, if he did make that comment. Let's remeber this was Holmes before the Williams bout. In the Willimas bout, Holmes broke his right and was shelved for months. During this time when Lar could not use his right while training, Larry honed and further developed the jab and it became a much bigger part of his arsenal.

Holmes' Jab Post-Williams, was a Much better weapon.

Let's ALSO realize that Holmes' jab AND his right gained more "oomph" to them when Eddie Futch came aboard. Eddie had Larry Plant more when firing both weapons and it added to the impact each tool had. Not that Giachetti's teachings were INEFFECTIVE, but he was pushing speed more with Larry. Eddie balanced the offense out more, sacrificing a bit of that speed for more power.

I appreciated both approaches personally.

Hawk

[hagler04]

I go with Liston. Eddie avoided it? Machen lost that fight b/c he basically had to worry about Liston's left in his face all night . . .Liston's jab neutralized a guy's offence b/c of it's hardness and accuracy. Holmes had a great jab as well but it didn't stop lesser guys (Weaver, Shavers) from attempting to just storm through it to get on the inside. A pain in the ass but it wasn't hard enough that it could just stop a guy in his tracks. Liston's jab, while not as fast, was literally impossibble to walk through, even for a granite jawed guy with courage.

As I always maintained, Foreman would have beaten Ali if he'd built his gameplan around the left jab. He still showed it in the Norton fight but after beating both Frazier and Norton, he fell in love with his power even more than he had previously and vs Ali he just flailed away like an amatuer. A great hard weapon. Not as accurate as Liston, but possibly even harder.

[rocky111]

Eddie Machen didnt fight at all. He was there to survive and I dont blame him. The Ali Liston fights I wont comment on because I dont think Sonny was fighting at all. But Ali if he felt like it had a blockbuster jab. He really hammered it in there against Joe Frazier in their first bout. I was impressed by it. It did a number on frazier again and again although Joe was so determained and he prevailed. Earnie Terrell had a good jab also and I rate it with Larry Holmes jab, although Larry brought much more to the table than Earnie offensively. But Earnie had a good jab.

[hawk5ins]

Eddie Futch's finishing touches he put on Larry when he came aboard re the power of Holmes' jab. And his right hand for that matter.

Holmes agianst Weaver, was CERTAINLY not fighting up to par that night. No need to go down that road agian. More than just Larry's jab was off that night.

And Holmes's jab was carving Shavers up in BOTH bouts. The fact that Shavers' dropped Larry in the 7th, has nothing to do with the ineffectiveness of Holmes' jab.

Agian, I think a clearer definition of what is meant by what is a better jab, would be helpful.

Hawk

[10-8]

IAs I always maintained, Foreman would have beaten Ali if he'd built his gameplan around the left jab. He still showed it in the Norton fight but after beating both Frazier and Norton, he fell in love with his power even more than he had previously and vs Ali he just flailed away like an amatuer. A great hard weapon. Not as accurate as Liston, but possibly even harder.

Foreman visibly hurt Frazier with a jab moments prior to the first KD in their first fight.

Foreman had a great jab when he chose to use it.

[PD99]

I agree that a clearer definition of "better" is required.

The single jabs of two fighters could be measured against one another. Fighter A might be found to possess a jab that it is faster, straighter, harder and more accurate than Fighter B. However, Fighter B might use his jab more often and more prudently (to pile the points, set up further shots etc.) than Fighter A and therefore (if optimal utilisation of the jab is included in the definition of "better"), it might be said that Jab B is better than Jab A in overall terms.

Imo, for quality in it's own right, Ali's jab at best was comparable to Holmes but Larry put far more emphasis on the use of his jab and therefore dominated more with the jab than did Ali. Certainly, if you average Ali's jab over his two careers, Holmes' was clearly better overall IMO.

Prime Ali's jab however was plenty hard, even for a guy on the move and it was that much harder when he sat down on it. On the move, see Williams, flat footed see Folley. I also think that Ali was more prone to opening up with a variety of other shots whenever his jab set him up for same. Perhaps Ali's best quality effort with the jab might've been against Liston in Fight I (for speed, power, accuracy and consistency) but even then Ali was not content to sit primarily on his jab for too long into the fight.

Foreman had a great jab (harder than Liston's?). It certainly almost dissappeared by the time of Zaire but made an impressive comeback in the second Frazier fight IMO.

Re Liston's reach. I oftened wondered the true extent of same. The commentator for either Liston Williams I or II noted that Williams had the longer reach. I don't know if he presumed same or if the TOTP suggested so. Liston's hanging arms certainly looked long in relation to his height but Williams was 2" taller and looked pretty well reached himself. For the build up of a potential Ali v Wilt Chamberlain bout, Dundee and Bundini measured Ali's reach on television and they came up with 78". Can't quite remember Chamberlain's reach, something like a ridiculous 94" or so.

[Roberto Aqui]

Wlad has a better jab than either. Easily as hard as Liston and as fast as Holmes if not Ali himself. Ali probably has the best jab ever because of the way he employed it with footwork and unpredictability, but strictly as a point A to point B asset, Wlad's is the best I've seen overall.

[hawk5ins]

"Wlad has a better jab than either. Easily as hard as Liston and as fast as Holmes if not Ali himself. Ali probably has the best jab ever because of the way he employed it with footwork and unpredictability, but strictly as a point A to point B asset, Wlad's is the best I've seen overall."

Not really sure what to say here.

So I won't say anything.

Hawk

[TKO11]

Come on Hawk, you have to admit that when Wladimir Sidorenko throws his jab, it's quick and at least as heavy (by comparison) as his other punches. He just doesn't use it that often.

Wait a minute.... you don't mean Klitschko, do you?

Nah....

[hawk5ins]

I thought we were discussing Wilmer Valderrama from That 70's Show.

Hence my confusion.

Hawk

[HE Grant]

Wlad does have a hell of a jab but come on ... by the way, so did Lennox Lewis. He really developed as his career moved on ...

[hawk5ins]

Carl WIlliams threw a heck of a jab as well.

But Like you said...cmon now.

Hawk

[TDKO]

Vlad's jab is every bit as fast as Ali's is.............................................


Nowadays

[mrbig1]

Cast another vote for Holmes.

[walshb]

I see Ali is sort of being included in this debate. If so, I say he had the hardest and fastest jab of the three. Definitely had the most ZIP behind it and was also the best disguised.....

[hawk5ins]

It took me 4 reads for me to get your Joke.

Nice.

Though sad on my part.

Hawk

[raylawpc]

Among the old timers, Jeffries reportedly had the best jab.