I will answer on both his and my thread and I have always admired Jimmy Young's courage and skill, I just did not like his tactics in the Ali bout.
I will answer on both his and my thread and I have always admired Jimmy Young's courage and skill, I just did not like his tactics in the Ali bout.
Does anyone know how I can get a variety of great DVD footage I have of me training fighters, TV interviews, training footage, onto You Tube. How is this done, tell the old Neanderthal. I also have some nice stuff with me, Angelo Dundee, Carlos Ortiz, Carter, Randy Gordon and others on film which I would like to get up on a link onto Cyberboxingzone. How should this be done?
I had a question before that I wasn't sure if it was worth asking you. It was how do you develope mental toughness in your fighters?
I've thought that alot of it had to do with starting out the fighter right, and knowing how hard to push them in order for them to bring out their best efforts. Emile Griffith from what I heard was a tough taskmaster as well as a good trainer. Other ex-fighters turned trainers such as Mike McCallum push their fighters to where it really takes toughness and serious commitment to continue to push on through. Sparring with a higher level of competition takes toughness knowing that they have an edge on you and will be take advantage of your weaknesses and openings. As the fighter improves, so will his workload increase as well as their opponents.
I guess ththat a lot of this has to do with a "fighter's mentality", a professional mindset to do what you gotta do, to always keep your composure and constantly improve no matter what.
On a similar vein I found a lot of truth in some of the words by Arnold Schwarzenegger.
"Experiencing this pain in my muscles and aching and going on and on is my challenge. The last three or four reps is what makes the muscles grow. This area of pain divides a champion from someone who is not a champion. That's what most people lack, having the guts to go on and just say they'll go through the pain no matter what happens. I have no fear of fainting. I do squats until I fall over and pass out. So what? It's not going to kill me. I wake up five minutes later and I'm OK. A lot of other athletes are afraid of this. So they don't pass out. They don't go on."
It's not strange that many other great athletes and champs share a similar viewpoint. From Marciano going the extra mile, to Lance Armstrong fighting through the burning pain in his legs, and many others. One interesting philosophy that I picked up from an in-flight magazine was from an interview with world skating champion, Apolo Ohno. Some powerful words that added more fire to his strong willpower was from the words of a greek writer by the name Nikkos Kazantzakis (sp?). Here's pretty much what he said, "We should not be concerned with either winning or losing, rather what is really important is to carry on the struggle. It's a chilling truth that touches my soul and one that I've used when I needed it. Now I don't think about the words, yet the effect is with me when I grit my teeth and do what I set out to do.
Anyways at the risk of turning your tread into something that looks even more like a training montage I'm posting a picture of myself from a few weeks back which will also serve as my new "before" picture.
I'm the guy on the right.
I mentioned before that I have some training ideas that I'd like to share. One idea is by pacing your workout according to heart rate, an idea I took from training for running. This is also goes with a modified circuit training approach geared towards improving your endurance, speed, and of course strength. You'll be among the first to know when it's all put together.
By the way, I wish that I could help you with getting your stuff out on Youtube, but the truth is that it'd be just as much of a learning curve for me as it is for you.
All the best,
This is one of my favorite posts of all time.
You look like you are in fantastic shape too. Very good dedication and understanding of the necessity of aerobic health and conditioning.
What a great question laced with diamonds of examples.
My sincere deep beliefs in creating a mental path to successful fighting fury, sustained punching power under fire, conquering negative anxiety either induced by a Pandora's box release of demons or feeling physically unprepared at a given moment can be overcome by my methods of triggering deadly focus and fury. Seconds count and believe me I have spent a lifetime of delivering the goods in megaton doses.
Whatever the momentary lack of foucs causing self doubt while dealing with confrontation, aggressive opponents in life or in the ring is based on a lack of mental control and tappiing into your personal power. My mehtods are steeped in a real not feigned mental attitude. It can only in my opinion be attained in several ways.
You have seen many male specimens of confidence walking through life, some bullies, some true warriors. each man has a well of fury and a scratch line drawn within his soul that no one can step over.
Some male creatures are baked in an oven of confusion since childhood, victims of abuse, anger, chemical imbalance or just always having their way as a big strong healthy athlete or powerful male creature.
In combat sports like MMA and boxing, they all are tough, all want to fight and whether it be the Golden Gloves or a street fight, all opponents of a warrior will bring wildness, verve and energy into the frey once they decide to fight.
Long ago I have mastered a thing I call taking them over the line. Whatever your crazy thing is, jailhouse punk, roundhouse swinging biker, steroid freak powerlifter in a bar, or seasoned pro fighter, I train my guys to break them with sustained and anatomically correct punching power that never stops until they are laying senseless at your feet.
I have to get to know each of my fighters deeply and understand them once I get them into fighting shape. Then I know what buttons to push. I never have to say "Think of this guy raping your wife," to make them want to destroy. Thats bush league to a man like me who studied Judo so long.
I talk to them like a Demon whispering to them in their ear after a long and arduous training regimen together. I give them a well of confidence based on real conditioning and living a life of integrity. I make them believe in their punching power and hand speed. We never give up, and until that bell rings ending things we will be trying to rip your head clean off and stove your ribs in.
It is that simple, I make them love to fight, believe in the honor of doing their best, and dealing with the pain and going for the glory. I have become according to my guys a master at bringing that out and I always try to improve it.
If I had DLH for example he would have KO's PBF, but he would work like he never did before and in training he would be no Golden Boy to me, but a machine of destruction I would be preparing.
I don't play when it comes to training and I train shoulder to shoulder with my guys including diet and sacrifice. It is all mental to me but that comes from training hard, and creating a well of confidence from just that.
"I AM STRONGER THAN YOU, FASTER THAN YOU, MEANER THAN YOU AND I AM TRAINING WHILE YOU ARE SLEEPING."
When it is all over we will shake hands. My guys can hardly hear the referee speak we are so deeply in foucs of what we are going to do. That is how I train them to keep staying frosty, focused and most importantly EXECUTE WHAT WE DID IN THE GYM, we memorize all angles, all possible positions to punch and it never has failed me, not once.
I make their hands hard, abs like rock, and I am very big on hand speed and adapting to anything. It is all mental and hard work. I talk to them constantly planting examples, ideas, and techinique and ways to focus on delivery while in pain and tired.
Before I get to that, the examples you gave of Arnold are very accurate and I remember vividly him saying that. I was lucky to have spent some time with him alone back in the 1970's when I was an Investigator with the Prosecutor's Office in Jersey City NJ and he would visit Joe Weider in Union City part of my jurisdiction, at his warehouse. God almighty he was something back then.
Join Date: Jun 2006 Re: Q & A for Randy Gordon
Randy, I asked Ron about this a little while ago. Here was his take:
Originally Posted by 10-8
I rewatched the Muhammad Ali Jimmy Young fight the other day and while it was a sloppy performance by an out of shape Ali I was wondering how as a referee you would have handled Jimmy's annoying and multiple "stick my head through the ropes so Ali won't hit me" tactics. To me it's almost an act of surrender, like taking a knee to avoid punishment, although Young was never hurt.
I always thought that Jimmy may have deserved a warning for the first time but what about each subsequent time. I think if the referee had have deducted a point after one warning Young would have stopped the annoying tactic.
What would you have done as the third man?
Reply: April 30, 76 I was there, and that was the time Rubin Carter was acused of beating Carlolyn Kelly, the head of his defense campaign while out on bail. Never forget that night in and out of the ring.
I would have warned Young with several hard warnings maybe 2-3, then deducted a point for failing to obey the referee's warnings. I would have said if you keep turning your back and hiding outside the ropes you will be disqualified. If it kept up he would have been DQ'd. Jimmy rest his soul did some job on Lyle and Foreman and was very clever in his fights with Norton and others. That hiding outside the ropes is not acceptable in a pro fight.
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06-28-2008, 10:25 PM #465
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York Re: Q & A for Randy Gordon
I guess me and my old boss are still on the same page on the way we believe a fight should be handled. I remember you asking me long ago 10-8, and Randy's and my answers turned out to be the same
Thanks for writing 10-8, I am surprised you remembered that one.
I like your thinking. I always get a confidence boost out of being of the few willing to push themselves ad-nauseum. I gotta say that being able to do more than the other guy, picking the best exercises and doing them right makes me feel in a league of my own. Yet when it comes to boxing I'm not far away from square one.
Lately, I've getting myself into shape so that I'll be closer to getting in fighting shape when that day comes. As for boxing, I've just been practicing how to throw my punches correctly in coordination with my feet. I'd like to compete when I'm ready, and I'd like to hook up with a trainer that'll help guide me as well a devil that whispers in my ear when I need it.
I've moved back to Michigan last month and I plan on going to college in Detroit. I remember reading a year ago that Bill Miller is teaching boxing in Royal Oak which just a short drive away from Detroit. Bill Miller did good work with James Toney to the point that his guy thought that he born that way. On the flipside, there's Joe Byrd's gym which isn't along the way, but he's done well getting his guys ready for the Golden Gloves, and his son Chris despite lacking the big guns was a champ. Until then I want to get myself in terrific shape, with the fundamentals under my belt so I can truely make the most of it when I step into the gym. I just wish that your gym was in my backyard so that I could go there everyday.
On a different note, I was wondering if there's any additional homework that you would advise your fighters to do. I think that tape watching should be part of a training regimen anyone that wants to compete. I'm starting out so I'm not ready to accumulate a big bag of tricks until I get a good foundation on everything else. I'd like to improve my punching, and two fighters that come to mind is Joe Louis and Rubin Carter. I'm just a little unsure how I should go about it.
Anyways, I found a piece of software that's supposed to help convert DVD's to something that Youtube can swallow. I'll test it out, and if all goes well I can email it to you later today.
Good hearing from you and please let me know how you are doing.Originally Posted by Chris Nagel
I've been busy today, so I haven't been able to test out that software that I mentioned, but I'll get on it tomorrow morning since everything is closed on July 4th.
I had a very good training session today. I believe that everyone needs a few exercises that they can do very well, and one of mine so happens to be the dips. I was able to do 3 sets of 40 which is a new B-all for me, I was surprised because just a month ago, 3 sets of 25 was all that I could handle.
I've been doing well with my aerobic conditioning but I'm always looking for more ways to improve. I weigh about 148 lbs, but I'd really like to get at 148 lbs ripped to the bone. Tomorrow I plan on closely monitoring my food intake, I've been eating a good clean diet, but I know I'm eating enough that I'm not going to be losing much fat at this rate.
Another idea that I have to help is walking about 30 minutes twice a day if I can. I was thinking about Marciano, who ontop of his long stretches of roadwork, and spartan like conditioning would walk everywhere. A book that I started reading called "Lean for Life" by a guy named Clarence Bass advocates the three pronged approach of diet, weightlifting, and aerobics. He also has a lot of good advice which includes walking. He says that a 154-lb person burns about 90 calories. If you just walk 1.5 miles twice a day, you burn 270 calories. Doing that everyday ontop of everything else helps.
Anyways I'd love to go over the Carter/Benton fight. From what I remember, I think that if Rubin went against today's Floyd Jr, that he'd demolish him.
I gotta get up in 6 hours so I'll pick this up tomorrow. It's always my pleasure talking with you.
thanks again Chris,Originally Posted by Chris Nagel
I am so sorry for him and his family, he would E-mail me quite a bit at home, and keep asking me to continue writing him back. This is a total shock for everyone. R.I.P. great warrior.
I'm back with some more big questions for you, and to start this off I'll begin with the biggest first. From a fighter's perspective, how do you watch a fight?
I've come to realize that there are a lot of ways to about it, and each trainer and fighter has their own take when it comes to watching a fight. I'm told that how you watch a fight is the way you'll watch and figure out an opponent. As for an important reference point that a good fighter said to me, "What you do = what your opponent will do."
This can be seen on different levels. A lot of fighters do well with good reactions cut and pasted from training, while on a higher level some fighters seemlessly navigate through their opponent's plans and actions while making them fight their fight. This can be as broad as a general strategy to gain the upperhand, setting up your shots, to dictating what your opponent's actions.
Even while keeping this is mind it's difficult for me to see what going on when watching a fight. I often find myself rewinding everytime a nice counter or finisher lands just to see what lead up to it. Sometimes it's simple, but usually I have trouble when there some sort of set up takes place. In that regard, how do train yourself to see things in a more predictable way?
Dempsey would say look at the distance in between the fighters, which gets confusing at the amount of things going on all at once. The approach of putting yourself in one of the fighter's shoes is the one that I like because then I'm able to get a feel for what's going on more than just seeing what's happening. What my grandfather said which was told to me by my dad was look at how they are standing and where they are trying to move. This boils down to reading a guy's intentions. I see how that can help when trying to figure out what one guy is thinking, but to me I'm still having trouble seeing exactly how things are enfolding, and the reasons if any are behind them.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this because it's a fascinating subject for me. I feel that much of this represents a big chunk of what makes a good thinking fighter. One day I'd like to step into the ring and be able to think on my feet myself.
In regards to training I have another thing that I've been thinking about lately. I've seen amazing examples of people demonstrating muscular control particularly in their abs. You're familiar with Joe Weider's isometric idea on flexing a muscle right? If practicing different flexing exercises allows for more muscular control, wouldn't that be benificial for you in taking a punch on the stomach should your opponent penentrate your guard. It couldn't hurt, it can be done as a supplement to your regular abdominal exercises. I was thinking about adding stomach vacuums, and perhaps some other exercises that I can draw from some of the old-time strongmen.
That's all for now, I have a lot of other interesting ideas I'd like to talk to you about soon.
The old timers would use a medicine ball for toughening up the abs in order to withstand punches.
I don't know if that still is the norm.
Hey Mike that reminds me of the time Angelo Dundee was watching Willie Reddish throwing a medicine ball at Sonny Liston's mid section during training for the up-coming Ali fight.
Angie reportedly said, "They should be throwing that at his head, since that's where my guy's gonna be hitting him."
Some fighters today still do it.Originally Posted by Mike DeLisa
Another old exercise that I've heard of on a similar thread is lying prone, stomach down with a medicine ball placed underneath your midsection. You keep your abs tight and your back straight as you roll over the ball. It's not as extreme as other methods, but it's easier on your insides.
My Pleasure,Originally Posted by Chris Nagel
Ron, I was fascinated by your praise of the greatly underrated Luis Rodriguez on the 'Sugar Ramos' thread.
Luis was indeed a wonder - thanks for doing him justice. By God, mate, you read these guys so well. But then I guess you fought nearly all of 'em!
My dad sends his very best to you, champ - he was greatly moved by the support you gave to our old pal, Emile Griffith.
Take good care,
Most kind of you Mike and thank you.Originally Posted by mike casey
It has been my privilege to have remained friends with Emile since we were kids in the gym, both of us NY City guys for a long time. Luis Rodriquez's boxing record makes him quite superior to most of the welterweight champions in history outside of the immortals. Even the fight Doctor said Luis had the best pair of legs he ever saw, that one could make use of in that boxing ring.
I never had the chance to box with some of Angelo's other guys like Gomeo Brennan, Pastrano and Florentino Fernandez. I saw Fernandez hit the heavy bag and his left hook was like a bomb exploding, one of the hardest I ever saw on anyone under 200lbs. I saw Floro box in the gym with Luis Rodriguez and Luis was absolutely dazzling and handled him with ease.
Luis actually knocked out rugged Jose Monon Gonzalez with such fast combinations. How many times can a man go to the well to draw reserves from? Luis fought and beat everyone in two divisions. Nino Benvenuti's ko over him to this day is something that is hard for me to believe, a fight I will never forget because it was so sad and Luis was not fighting like his usual self although ahead. What a left hook though, out of nowhere and amazing.
Ali really had great admiration for Luis Rodriquez. When Luis died he was on a kidney machine and he had balooned up to 250lbs prior to that. Florentino Fernandez was always so powerful he kept his teenage looks and build up until 1994 and from then I don't know.
The 1960's were my favorite for boxing stars.
The 1960's (and '50s) were my favorite for boxing stars as well, though I loved the '70s for heavies and the '80s for welters..
Originally Posted by tedsares
Reply: Can't agrue with that good call, Ted "The Bull."
Did you get something in the mail, mate?
I wondered did you happen to see or read about the Williams fiasco from his
bout with Konstantin Airich from Spain a couple of months back, What a fiasco!
It's on youtube I think
Did you see the Toney / Rahman fiasco? and what are your thoughts on the
It seemed VERY Bogus and suspicious, come on, Accidental headbut, blood dripping in his eye, and only three rounds completed, doctor stops the fight,
(even though Rahman complained he couldn't see clearly from that eye).
TKO victory for Toney????????
Hi buddy,Originally Posted by TDKO
I did not see it but I saw the pictures of them and how fat they both looked even at 226 for Toney or thereabouts. When a cut is caused by an unintentional clash of heads and is ruled so, if 4 rounds have not been completed and the bout has to be stopped due to that cut, it is not ruled a tko but a no contest or a technical draw.
Very strange ruling. Even if a cut caused by an accidental head butt is then exacerbated by legal punches causing a later stoppage they must go to the score cards instead of a tko as the initial injury was ruled an unintentional head butt.
Decisive actions by professional referees is always helps in preventing controversy. I hear the referee in the Delvin Rodriquez bout let a bout go on much to long as did the stricken fighter's corner.
Some people should not be in charge of other person's lives, they are too stupid, selfish or unprofessional.
I still cannot fathom how Cortez was given the bout overseas after what he did in Vegas leaving a fighter lying on the canvas bleeding and alone.
A powerful new broom should come in and sweep boxing clean like Hercules flooding the Aegean stables in Mythology.
Originally Posted by walshb
I will definitely check it out and get back to you.
thank you Sir,
I hope you get to see the fight sometime,
no doubt it will get your blood pressure up......
I saw it and it was disgraceful.
Where did this fight take place and what moron appointed this clown of a referee?
They were throwing some hard hits in there too.
Fights handled like that absolutely demand justice and this referee being sat down forever. What a total Schmuck!
Ron, I have a question regarding psychological techniques and methods of training and motivating boxers for peak performance.
Years ago I read a study (I was very interested in sports psychology and read whatever I could) that pointed out that there were basically two types of motivation that leaders deployed:
1) Negative reinforcement which was basically punishment for poor performance and
2) Positive reinforcement which was basically being praised and rewarded for good performance
The study showed that both methods had major shortcomings, mainly that the leader's reponse was predictable. As a result it was determined that the most effective way to motivate and consistently get the best performance from an individual was to reward and praise at unexpected times and to be critical and hard at unexpected times.
I coached hockey for the better part of 25 years and found that this method often worked (I used to call it pulling a mind-fuck). In other words sometimes a poor performance was met with a verbal lashing or other times emphasizing the positive things that I saw. Ditto for an excellent performance which could be received with high praise from me or instead acting unsatisfied by highlighting the negatives of that particular performance. The idea was to keep the athlete on his toes and not know what to expect from me. Sometimes after a great performance I would drill the shit out of the players and be very hard on them next practice, or after a poor performance I might take a step back and lighten it up the next practice session.
Since we are all motivated by praise and reward, I found this method to be effective in that the athlete was always reaching for that praise and reward because they were never quite sure when or where it was going to come.
Now I realize a team dynamic with so many different personalities is going to differ greatly from training an individual in a sport such as boxing (you live and die on your own in that ring). I was curious then if you deploy any particular psychological games/tricks on you athletes to push them towards their maximum performance and what some of those techniques might be.
Last edited by 10-8; 07-19-2008 at 03:46 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by 10-8
Hi Bill and thank you for asking me my opinion on such an important issue which impacts so deeply on the relationship between a boxing trainer and his charge.
I seemed to be blessed at least seem to be by what my fighters-students over the years tell me, unless they have been bullshitting me for 40 years.
We seem to hit it off right away and only the real headcases and there have been many who have crossed my lifepath in boxing, are shaken out of their focus by outside forces once I get my boxing talons into them.
In all good humor meant there are those who believe we are all hairless talking apes who have evolved with such messed up Mommy and Daddy patterns, multidimensional sexuality, a bottomless abyss of fire and ice motivations fueled by life experiences, that by the time some brave crazy bastard has chosen the ring of sport to unleash his fury and aspirations in, that individual with his body of youth is moldable clay in the hands of a boxing Michaelangelo.
Griffith needed a strong paternal figure in Clancy with a slap in the corner frin "His favorite Irishman." Tyson's misguided spirit needed the stern and caring father figure of Cus and the honesty and pillar of strength of Jimmy Jacobs. Loyalty, unison, bonding in sincerity and care between a Kelly Pavlik and his trainer, Roy Jones Jr and his Coach etc.
I am somewhat different and somewhat the same. With me it is more like a Marciano with Allie Comumbo training shoulderto shoulder with my guys. They see the old man doing most everything they do and punching harder than them most of the time. The ab work that I have them do, I do, the exercises and boxing too. They know I am for real. I never lie to them or use psychology on them. I always tell them the brutal truth and when my praise comes you can build a house on it because it is real.
I have a boy now named Marcus Randle, an amateur from England who is about 5'7" 126lbs. The bravest, most dedicated kid I have ever seen in my entire life. When I tell him something he does it like Griffith said once, "If Clancy tell me to jump out of the ring, I will do it."
If he does something wrong I tell him, if he looks at me while he is hitting the bag and I say don't fucking look at me, stay in character and keep punching, he does it. If in a 6 punch combination his right hand is too high, I tell him.
We have an agreement written in blood and stone. Tell me if you are in pain and separate that pain from muscle fatigue and injury. If it is injury tell me immediately.
Do not fight to impress me, or you will lose focus. Fight and train to have FUN WITH THIS. Lets go for the brass ring, lets do the best we can, lets break through the pain barrier, stick with me and I will show you how to punch so much harder, faster and I will pass on the secrets of the greatest fighters I have worked with and watched up close.
They all trust me, and when they stray outside the gym, with head problems, girl problems, legal problems, booze problems, family problems it shows up in the gym with me very quickly.
I never bother with too much psychology, I get them so ready to fight, that to keep up with me, they develope sincere, deep and powerful confidence which comes from being in shape and knowing we are the best. We study films like Archer V Mims, Carter V Benton, and all the present day fights too.
We pick them apart frame by frame, we study our opponents, we have plan A, plan B and then some.
If I had a Ricky Hatton or DLH I would add to them not change them.
I criticize and compliment only with the truth. I am too set in my ways as the worst nasty old war dog to humor, placate or tweak another males ego.
I know how to do it like the best whore you could buy in Vegas, BUT I will not curry for favor even if it means putting salve on another man's fragile ego.
It goes against my inherent grain. Like Angelo Dundee did once which is cool, he said he could never tell Ali what to do, so to get him to throw more to the body, he would say, "What a great body shot that was," Ali would say, "Yeah," and then throw a few more which he rarely did.
Thats cool and I am with that 100%. My thing is I train them to death, let them know I truly care and love them and when we go into battle my spirit is with them. They know I love and care for them, and am vicious with them in training. The truth takes care of the rest.
Damn, sorry for the spelling errors, my post looked like Clyde from Every Which Way But Loose typed it with his foot. Struggle through great Ape spelling class 101 and you get the gist of it.
Thanks Ron for that great in-depth resonse as usual.
As expected, the intimacy and closeness of working one on one with an athlete is certainly a different dynamic from working with a group of 20 different individuals who respond differently, not to mention being able to spot the charcter traits which you require to work with. The right clay to mold the finished product which you envision. Under that environment you really get to know that athlete close-up and read him like a book, and know how to make him tick.
I think in the case of Dundee working with Ali, he had a headstrong and stubborn guy who needed to believe he was the boss. In that situation Angie tugged the right strings on a complex guy like Ali. We know that when Archie Moore tried working with a young Cassius Clay the dynamic didn't pan out with Moore in the role of taskmaster.
I will be remembering the name Marcus Randle and look forward to seeing this young man in the ring.