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Ron, I just wanted to share this link with some of our members who may not have seen this KO before. Absolutely brutal and devestating. Rubin was a monster in this fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0LQ5...e=channel_page
OMG, That was one hell of a punch.
I was in camp with him for the fight.
I was almost 17 and a young animal. We ran 4 1/2 to 6 1/2 miles a day.
We did sets of 100 pushups between a ring stool and then a 100 situp like crunches in sets of 100 until we hit 1000.
I knew boxing history then so help me God as well as I know it now except for what has passed on. I knew as he did everything about Fernandez.
There was deadly serious respect for his left hook in camp and his overall body strength. He was vulnerable for a flash fast right hand because his hook was wide, and Rube's right hand and short left hook combo was a finisher. Carter was hungry, ready and knew how to do it.
He was as mean as a fucking snake in camp which was good and radiated malevolent anger at the slightest provocation of ANYTHING going wrong, missing a beat on the jump rope would result in the rope being smashed into the wall.
It was beautiful as far as a barometer of crankiness for the fight or as Steve Irwin used to say, God rest his soul, The cobra, Lion, Jaguar, rattlesnake was not a killer ready to put you under but he was "Grumpy."
Grumpy almost tore his head off in the ring. Watch Carmine Tedeschi try and touch and hug Rubin, and is immediately not only brushed off but Carter starts doing what I used to do. I hated anyone touching me when my power juices were flowing, he starts shaking his "Touch" right off of him.
No hugs wanted, no nothing, why, because he still was ready to keep delivering the mayham, was not sated yet.
I understand and remember. Fernandez was a force in that ring, one of the strongest ever in my opinion. The way he handled Chegui Torres, God rest his soul, was beyond belief, same as his bout with Fullmer.
Carter was at his zenith. Then ruined it to a degree with cigarettes, booze and a varitey of tensions. If he kept his focus there would be no 12 losses on his record except for Dick Tiger, who had his number like no other.
Ron truly impressive that you trained with Rubin while you were really just a kid. I have a 16 year old son and I can't imagine him in the ring against a force like Carter or anywhere near him for that matter.
Did Rubin treat you any different because you were still a teenager?
Like my trainer NJ Hall of Famer George Branch told me as Tommy Parks his partner was training Rubin and in my corner for about 20 of my fights,
"Don't go near him he hates white guys."
I said, yeah ok.
I wait until Carter comes into the gym, wait until he is done saying hello to everyone and Branch brings him over to me to introduce him, as we both had Panthers on the back of our robes and I felt I was the only Panther.
I say, "Hey man, I hear you're looking for another white boy to beat up on, and I need the job, hire me for pay as your sparring partner."
Everyone in the gym almost shits on themselves because he had a hair trigger temper. He stared me down for a second searching my eyes and he saw I meant it and up comes this deep rumbling laughter and he puts his arm around me and says you got the job.
He of course tried to knock my dick in the dirt and one day a former high school buddy of mine comes up to watch the daily mayhem. I am doing pretty good with Rube up until this time after a few fights.
Dominick Scaglione who late goes on to retire from the F.B.I. where I give a speech at the NY Long Island Crab House honoring Joe Spinelli the Inspector General for the State of NY with F.B.I. Director Louis Freegh sitting in the front row as Spinelli was Scag's parnter. I make them both look great in the speech. Now the young Scagllione is sitting in the bleachers at Ehasan's training camp formerly Madame Bey's a famous whore house.
Carter gets in the ring warmed up, vicious and dangerous. He dumps to the canvas Wild Bill Hardney 6'1" former 3 time NJ GG champ who fought Bob Foster twice and who sparred with me everyday, the big mother.
He is laying there blood oozing out of his headgear dead to the world. JImmy Wilde the trainer loves it but they get Hardney out of there. In comes Clay Thomas with 20" arms who fought Ernie Terrell and others and gets the lliving dog shit knocked out of him with no mercy pilly to post by the 157lbs fistic machine Carter.
Now up comes his favorite wiseguy whiteboy with the big mouth who is faster than him, faster hands, faster legs and probably more crazy at the time. The Dr. says I'm much better now (Smile).
I know Dominick is watching and I want to look good. I am really timing him, and I am landing good, drew blood form his nose with jabs. The resisn dust from the shitty ring canvas and loose floor boards are providing a concerto to his maniacal pursuit of me, I time him and nail him with one of those Ron Lipton right hands you will see on You Tube in the near future.
I know he faltered and time stood still as his wiry and thick goatee was pressed down on his chest so a tennis ball could not slip out so it hits him full force in his hard mouth area and drives his chin into his chest more rocking him back.
He ACTUALLY snorted like a gored bull and all I remember to this day is the pain in my leg from being smashed to the canvas totally out for about 4 seconds they said. He countered with a right hand left hook and the right hand made my chin feel like it was coming out of the back of my neck.
The only think that saved me was Gil Clancy sending me to Old Doc Brown about a month before in the Bronx to make me up the EXACT duplicate of Emile Griffith's mouthpiece as I was boxing with Jose Monon Gonzalez at the time too. I got up and I was full of hate and wanted to killl him for knocking me down in front of Dom.
Jimmy Wilde called me out of there and I said Fuck You, and Carter LOVED IT,
in all honesty I do remember him looking at me and nodding approval of respect but he did continue to beat my ass to the body and my face was a mess.
What happened later that night is another story and will be in my book,
"Angels In My Corner."
A small sample of how the teenager I was thought I was hot shit and got educated with Dirty Harry's Law of "A Man Has Got to Know His Limitations."
Sorry for the atrocious spelling mistakes.
My beloved dog was on my lap watching me type and kept nuzzling my hand to pet her.
I re read this and thought an Orangutan typed it.
Minus 20 for spelling errors.
Sounds like my Jack Russell always sitting at my feet when I'm typing looking up at me and crying while waiting for her nightly walk.
Thanks for the detailed response Ron. Great story about the Rubin sparring session. Sort of a "welcome to the big show kid...have a seat!"
True eough as well about Rubin not wanting to be hugged by Carmine Tedeschi. I saw Ray Leonard do the same thing after his brutal knockout of Donny Lalonde. After keeping his arms down at his side when the first cornerman embraces him, he physically pushes away the next guy that tries to get close and embrace him.
Looking forward to your book as well.
Peace as always,
Bill
Someone told me here, I forget, to send them a DVD and they could put it up on YouTube for me. I think it was Brendan? I have one that I tried to have put up there and it was made for watching as a regular DVD format.
People are having a problem getting it up there and I need to send it to someone who has the software to do it for me.
Please E-mail me at Rlipt8@aol.com
Thanks,
Ron
September 16, 1946
Thats my video that a friend of mine uploaded on you tube for me.Originally Posted by 10-8
Mr Lipton
Howard Davis hitting the heavybag today!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WC788jRRCU
I saw the video and I thank you for letting me know.
I don't consider those punches though. They are pumping ones hands like taking a fly swatter and flicking your wrist as fast as you can while the fly swatter flaps through the air. He pumps his hands very fast to be sure.
I refereed Howard v Joaquim Valasquez in NJ for 10 rounds. He is a nice man and he had some great ring accomplishments. His hands are fast.
I boxed with Ismael Laguna once in NY and Luis Rodriguez in Miami, they were like lightning. When Luis Rodriquez went to the body, he would really punch fast and they would HURT.
There are demonstrations and there are real punches with speed and power.
Two fast hard strikes are worth more than 30 candy store flurries that no one would stand still for.
It was fast for what it was though. Thanks KOJOE
best,
Ron
I would add that I would equate that demo more like a drum roll than a punching demonstration.
Wonder where Howard Davis Jr would be today? The prime Howard I mean...Always seemed to me like he had a tendancy to shoot himself in the foot as a pro and displayed a lot less power than was needed in those days...
Howard had the skills, intelligence, height, hand speed, but lack of power due to a tendency to always be on the move. A nice man, devoid of viciousness,
needing a killer instinct and punching power. He had a very impressive career that I respect, and I was very proud to have refereed him and traveled with him to the Rocky Marciano Foundation Dinner for children.
I always wish him the best. It is a brutal business that demands professional and effective brutality which I teach to my pros. We leave it to the "Good" referees to stop it.
Ron
Hi mister Lipton. I’m Theo, I’m Dutch, 47, and all my life I’ve been a boxing fan. Especially a fan of Ali and Holmes. I enjoyed reading this thread of Q&A with you very much. You’re talented writer!
Since about 1975 I have a certain interest in the Hurricane case. It is thing that once and a while kept me busy. In the 70ties there were here in Holland some documentaries about this innocent man sitting like Buddha in a ten foot cell. Felt sorry for the guy. Even though I was never convinced of his innocent. Just became a doubter. I just felt that if so many people of standing support Carter they must know what they’re doing. The first Bob Dylan record I ever bought was because of Hurricane. Loved the song. Great lyrics! All this shaped my opinion.
But times have chanced.
A few years back I discovered http://www.graphicwitness.com/carter/, a site you have already mentioned here. Although 'they don’t proof Carter is guilty, they don’t have to, they proof to me at least he is a liar. And that lying goes to an extent that I feel he is not so innocent as he says…
I think to have found a lie of Rubin Carter to. In the video below he says at about 2.50 that the highest he ever weighted was 157 pounds. That’s to get the sympathy David against Goliath gets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhKew1z2UcY
But these days even Joe Sixpack can check Carters claim, there is boxrec: http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php...1387&cat=boxer
From this statistics you can learn Carter fought 40 times and weighted at least 21 times 157 pounds or more! So this is in full contradiction with his speech were he says that 157 was his heaviest! It seems to me that Carter is even lying when he doesn’t have to. Or boxrec is wrong… And you are wrong... I also wonder about the rest of his speech. Does he tell the truth in general and specific about him and Sonny Liston?
I’ don’t think boxing is Carters only talent…
What’s your opinion?
Regards Theo
Last edited by Theo Netherland; 05-11-2009 at 06:01 PM.
[QUOTE=Theo Netherland]Hi mister Lipton. I’m Theo, I’m Dutch, 47, and all my life I’ve been a boxing fan. Especially a fan of Ali and Holmes. I enjoyed reading this thread of Q&A with you very much. You’re talented writer!
R. Thank you Theo, much appreciated.
Since about 1975 I have a certain interest in the Hurricane case. It is thing that once and a while kept me busy. In the 70ties there were here in Holland some documentaries about this innocent man sitting like Buddha in a ten foot cell. Felt sorry for the guy. Even though I was never convinced of his innocent. Just became a doubter. I just felt that if so many people of standing support Carter they must know what they’re doing. The first Bob Dylan record I ever bought was because of Hurricane. Loved the song. Great lyrics! All this shaped my opinion.
But times have chanced.
A few years back I discovered http://www.graphicwitness.com/carter/, a site you have already mentioned here. Although 'they don’t proof Carter is guilty, they don’t have to, they proof to me at least he is a liar. And that lying goes to an extent that I feel he is not so innocent as he says…
R. It is a site with evidence involving the case that is disturbing at times to me, although I pray he is innocent after all the help I have given.
I think to have found a lie of Rubin Carter to. In the video below he says at about 2.50 that the highest he ever weighted was 157 pounds. That’s to get the sympathy David against Goliath gets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhKew1z2UcY
But these days even Joe Sixpack can check Carters claim, there is boxrec: http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php...1387&cat=boxer
From this statistics you can learn Carter fought 40 times and weighted at least 21 times 157 pounds or more! So this is in full contradiction with his speech were he says that 157 was his heaviest! It seems to me that Carter is even lying when he doesn’t have to. Or boxrec is wrong…
R. No boxing record is not wrong. But the truth Theo is that he was a natural middleweight who in camp with me truly never had to hydrate to over 160lbs at all. He is not a liar about that but stating the basic truth about that issue as it stands by itself. As he puts it, soaking wet with a rock in each hand he was ALWAYS between 155-160lbs. He was a tremendous physical specimen who even in his fight againt the great Dick Tiger, after absorbing 3 DEVASTATING CRUNCHING KNOCKDOWNS, came back to fight Tiger in the 7th round with all his might and stagger the great Nigerian champion shaking him up. Tiger won but could not completely subdue Carter after stopping Fernandez, Fullmer, and the rough Jose Monon Gonzalez.
Rubin has his many detractors as he used to evoke the worst fears in men who are not built like him and are very jealous of his attributes, their inner impotent self pulls for him to be crushed based on his personality, his strengths, and the muscular build he has which mirrors their own inferiority.
He was a guy who pissed off many including me, but at his best he was amazing.
You have guys today who point out his paper record of 12 losses, which is Rubin's fault and no one elses, for smoking, drinking and not being focused.
Yet his skills against Mims, Benton and Giardello, were amazing to ME, and so were his devastating victories over Griffith and Fernandez.
His personality, and the rift between us is another thing, but I do respect him as a great fighter, and the guys who criticize his record only have to look at some of his films and thank God they weren't in there with him.
And you are wrong... I also wonder about the rest of his speech. Does he tell the truth in general and specific about him and Sonny Liston?
R. Yes, that did happen and it is a fact.
I’ don’t think boxing is Carters only talent…
What’s your opinion?
R. Rubin has his problems like all of us, and as far as his case, while he lives, I have nothing to say. We were thrown together in a mix and mileau that no other time in history can match. I will say this. The way he was portrayed in that bullshit movie, was a total misconception as to the way he really was.
He remains a very articulate, intelligent, complex man, who I went through a lot with personally. He was very dangerous, explosive and like many of us has two distinct parts, the dark side and the good side.
Can't say anymore in this forum.
best to you,
Ron
Thanks for your quick reply and answer.
My pleasure.
Ron, I've posted this question here for the benefit of the CBZ members.
Have you ever used one of these 'torso' bags? (see picture) I tried one a few years and liked it. The head shots simulate a real head pretty good and the torso on these things are rock solid for body shots. Thanx in advance.
Peace,
Bill
Last edited by 10-8; 05-18-2009 at 07:47 PM.
R. I have but I don't like it. Although "Critical Bill" Treat William's character in "Things To Do In Denver When You're Dead," had a smiliar idea at old man Carloti's funeral parlor banging away at some "MammyRammer" on a meat hook, I prefer sparring and the heavy bags.Ron, I've posted this question here for the benefit of the CBZ members.
Have you ever used one of these 'torso' bags? (see picture) I tried one a few years and liked it. The head shots simulate a real head pretty good and the torso on these things are rock solid for body shots. Thanx in advance.
Peace,
Bill
If it was bigger, more realistic and moved his head, tried to slip shots and groaned when you ripped body shots into him I would dig it more.
Ron
Hi Ron, I’ve got another question for you. It’s about Sonny Liston. You knew him. There are some documentaries on him on youtube. I love them so I’ve seen them quit a few times. In one of these documentaries is said that Sonny Liston was one person to someone, and anthoter person to another. That’s why no one knows who Sonny Liston really was.
Ron can you tell what kind of person, as you see him, Liston was? Let me put it this way. What did he do like most of us? And what do most of us that he didn’t do? And what did he do that most of us don’t do? What was typical Sonny Liston? Was he as fearful, a brute, as we are made to believe?
To me a guy like Liston is eh... I would support Patterson. On the other hand this guy is one of the most enigmatic and intriguing sportsman ever. What a life story! The questions never stop.
Regards Theo
Last edited by Theo Netherland; 05-20-2009 at 07:37 PM.
Best,
Ron
Now there's a recipe for the Ron Lipton Slam Man bag. I can hear the add in my head:
"Rudimentary movment based on motion activiation and realistic sounds when good shots land to the liver, sternum or other major organs - and the bag will drop when the right pressure and shot is landed to the jaw with difficulty settings based on real fighters chin: Beginers can practice on the Zab Judah setting whilst the Joe Grim setting will test the punching resolve of even a prime Earnie Shavers.
Cuts to Ron:
"Buy my bag and follow my system and you'll be a panther in no time!"
10/8 - Brother Bill, Jeff Fenech had his own "slam man" that came with lights built into him that sort of acted as a cross between the torso bag and the Teddy Atlas heavy bag Everlast put out that has the numbers on it so you can practice certain kinds of punches in routines.
I want one more for the novelty.
There are a few questions about Liston’s life and career that probably never be solved. His second fight with Ali is suspected. Maybe their first fight as well... But suspected of what? In both fights Liston seems to give it away.
Also there is a cloud of mystery surrounding his death. Did he take an overdose heroin even though he had a phobia for needles? According to the police there were only small traces of heroine found in his body. Too small to be lethal. So this keeps you wondering why if a person planted this he didn’t give him a real deathly shot. Ron, what’s your opinion on his fights with Ali and on the way he died?
Regards Theo
Doomed, I'm thinking buy up a few and stick them in the audience for your next gig...viola, another packed house. Torso man has a good heavy metal scowl on his face and a skin head to boot...should fit right in! LOL.
Seriously, I might pick one up. I hear Ron's point clearly but I'm thinking a little variety ain't such a bad thing, as long as the brunt of the real work is done on the big bag.
Hitting that thing in the head feels closest to the real thing.
Mate the next shows for us are actually over in New Zealand so given the sparse population there and the fact that its us playing, I may well need to get an order over there stat!
My favourite boxing exercise is the floor to ceiling bag as I find that is the one that helps me understand timing and improves the crispness of my punches, and improve the accuracy and timing of hooks too.
I couldn't imagine my garage without a floor to ceiling and a heavy bag as well, but I reckon I might JUST squeeze one in there too...
Ron - I'm loving your instructions on the website, I would really love it if you could put a few routines for heavy bag or other aparatus just to mix up my training a bit more.
Ron: Good stuff buddy, LOL.
R: First fight, Ali did the job on him, no question in my mind.
Second fight, all time tank job by Liston.
Liston's death: Exacerbated by constant heroin and cocaine abuse even in the company of Joe Louis. Gained weight, weakened his heart and beyond being given a lethal dose by whomever, who knows. The last book on him was quite interestering. I have a copy here somewhere, very many red flags raised. I met him, liked him, and had a few belts with him and he was ok people, despite his sordid background. Everyone changes and mellows.
At his zenith, a DESTROYER AND A FORCE.
R. I will I promise, as soon as I break free from some aggravating situations, including a broken rib from one fighter missing the mitts. Good shot though.
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