Ron Lipton: Q & A Thread

[Ron Lipton]

I was with Poison Junior Jones, Carlos Ortiz, Iran Barkley, Vinnie Maddalone, Carl The Truth Williams and Attilio Tondo today at my good buddy's gym in Monroe NY for a fund raiser.

It was great being with old friends. I was a 16 year old kid watching Rubin Carter spar with Attilio in Patterson back in 1962, and of course I was in Carlos Ortiz's training camp for his match with Elorde in MSG, having refereed Junior Jones v Orlando Canizalez, we all had a lot to reminisce about.

Iran Barkley and Carl the Truth Williams are such great guys it was so much fun to be with them. Great day today, man I love these guys.

Ron

[Dino1]

Ron, you've probably been asked this question before, but had you been reffing the second Ali-Liston fight. How would you have handled all the chaos in the ring? Off the top of my head, I would say that Walcott should have sent Ali to a neutral corner and he should have told Nat Fleischer to shut up as he had no official authority to tell Walcott what to do. Would you have stopped the fight the way Walcott did and give to to Ali because someone told him that Liston was down for 10 seconds? Any insight from a former referee like yourself would be great. Thanks much.

[GPater11093]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMrg-1fC4u4

This was my last fight Ron happened last night.

Was my first senior fight, guy i was fighting was 21. Be interested, and appreciative, as always, to hear your thoughts (and anybody elses for that matter) on my performance.

I am in blue.

I think you will agree my strength and power have improved.

[Ron Lipton]

Ron, you've probably been asked this question before, but had you been reffing the second Ali-Liston fight. How would you have handled all the chaos in the ring? Off the top of my head, I would say that Walcott should have sent Ali to a neutral corner and he should have told Nat Fleischer to shut up as he had no official authority to tell Walcott what to do. Would you have stopped the fight the way Walcott did and give to to Ali because someone told him that Liston was down for 10 seconds? Any insight from a former referee like yourself would be great. Thanks much.

R: I show this film to my boxing class every single year for the past 10 years.
I was very privileged to have known Jersey Joe and have picture of us together in 1988. I talked to him at length about this and about many of his fights too.

I would have never took direction from anyone at ringside let alone Nat Fleisher or any of his pals, Sam Taub, him or anyone else alive or dead. I would have made Ali go to a neutral corner, stopped the count and direct the alternate referee if there was one to be quiet until I decided to resume the count in front of Liston's face so he could hear my voice and see my visual "Finger count" too.

He could have stayed down longer than Douglas in the Tyson fight or Dempsey in the second Tunney fight if they wished, but until Ali went to that neutral corner as explained IN THE DRESSING ROOM, by me, time would Twilight Zone stand still.

Turning your back on two battling boxers is a faux pas that is inexcusable also. A referee has to take control. This was up there with Abraham v Miranda I with a legion of people including the crowd dictating to the referee what should happen.

It is not as bad or ridiculous as Cotto V Foreman but it is close. Making boxers fight with broken jaws, dislocated knees, or the Editor of Ring Magazine calling the shots is the fault of one person only.

THE HEAD OF THE RESPECTIVE NY AND NJ COMMISSION who appoints and forgives over and over again the same people whether it be a Mercante JUNIOR, Randy Neuman, a Tony Perez or even a great boxer like Jersey Joe who NEVER should have been there to begin with.

It is all politics, like in Texas with Cole, or NJ with the same bumbling mistakes over and over again, it is about guys who sell insurance, quid pro quo, " Politically correct" bumbling appointments so embarrassing that refs make a guy stand there and give him a mandatory 8 count once the bell rings and the round is over and the boxer gets up before 8, instead of just sending him back to his corner like Earl Brown did in that Victor Ortiz bout.

No one cares, BECAUSE no one on the Commission knows what the fuck is going on, hell man, Ralph Petrillo of the NYSAC and Melvina Latan said Mercante Junnior did a good job in Cotto v Foreman after everyone on fucking earth said he did a shit job and was nucking futs in that fight including every writer and editor of The Ring magazine.

Boxing is run by people who NEVER HAD a glove on, and use the worst political hack officials and have no balls to get rid of them forever.

[gregbeyer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMrg-1fC4u4

This was my last fight Ron happened last night.

Was my first senior fight, guy i was fighting was 21. Be interested, and appreciative, as always, to hear your thoughts (and anybody elses for that matter) on my performance.

I am in blue.

I think you will agree my strength and power have improved.

hey greg,

well done. you look a lot taller all of a sudden.... also noticed the jab has really stiffened. good combination punching.... great performance.

congrats,

greg

[Theo Netherland]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMrg-1fC4u4

This was my last fight Ron happened last night.

Was my first senior fight, guy i was fighting was 21. Be interested, and appreciative, as always, to hear your thoughts (and anybody elses for that matter) on my performance.

I am in blue.

I think you will agree my strength and power have improved.

From a fans point of view you fought a very good fight. Lots of action. Well done!

[GPater11093]

Thanks guys.

The guy I fought was a bit shorter than me so I look disportionatly tall.

[Ron Lipton]

Greg,
you fought a good fight, and have improved. My suggestion would be not to wait until the 2nd round to put the hurt on your opponent but put more power, speed, torque, snap, muscle and body force into your shots by being fully warmed up and stay warmed up prior to that bell ringing. He was a tough kid to be sure and you protected your ribs well and your jab had better timing and snap to it this time out.

You displayed great heart once again, just do not RUSH straight in after a standing 8 count is given to your opponent but come in behind some hard jabs and move your head while you are looking to finish him off.

I like that second round where after his aggressive attacks you started punching more like a Bob Foster using your height and snapping those shots off, just throw that hook and right hand with more body behind them and put a kick on the end of each shot.

I would like to see you do some intelligent bodybuilding techniques for boxers to give you more powerful biceps, triceps, delts, and back to have functional muscle to put into your punches. You have all the tools, heart, experience, ring savvy, but do NOT take too many punches for a trophy, have fun but remember you are not getting paid, and that is a lot of punishment in these rough bouts just for a trophy and the crowd's enjoyment.

I don't like to think of you in all these rough fights now with your whole life ahead of you. The accumulate effect of too many head shots on anyone in the world no matter how tough, is not a good thing.

Great fight and these opponents out there are tough and willing boxers too.
best,
Ron

[GPater11093]

Greg,
you fought a good fight, and have improved. My suggestion would be not to wait until the 2nd round to put the hurt on your opponent but put more power, speed, torque, snap, muscle and body force into your shots by being fully warmed up and stay warmed up prior to that bell ringing. He was a tough kid to be sure and you protected your ribs well and your jab had better timing and snap to it this time out.

Mr Lipton, I started the bout feeling very nervous as my opponent was a senior and looked to be very strong. I went in thinking I was going to be bullied around like a wee baby, but when I went in there I seen I had the strength advantage after the first round, so in the second I altered my tactics to accommodate that.

But good advice. Thanks.

You displayed great heart once again, just do not RUSH straight in after a standing 8 count is given to your opponent but come in behind some hard jabs and move your head while you are looking to finish him off

.

Bit careless off me. You have seen a few of my fights, I do get drawn in too easily.

I like that second round where after his aggressive attacks you started punching more like a Bob Foster using your height and snapping those shots off, just throw that hook and right hand with more body behind them and put a kick on the end of each shot.

Good advice.

I would like to see you do some intelligent bodybuilding techniques for boxers to give you more powerful biceps, triceps, delts, and back to have functional muscle to put into your punches. You have all the tools, heart, experience, ring savvy, but do NOT take too many punches for a trophy, have fun but remember you are not getting paid, and that is a lot of punishment in these rough bouts just for a trophy and the crowd's enjoyment.

Thanks Mr Lipton. I will bear it in my mind. I try to have a good defence but when I get in there, I box the way I do naturally and it is in a wa that I ship some shots myself.

I don't like to think of you in all these rough fights now with your whole life ahead of you. The accumulate effect of too many head shots on anyone in the world no matter how tough, is not a good thing.

Indeed. I'll try to sharpen my defence.

Great fight and these opponents out there are tough and willing boxers too.
best,
Ron

Thanks Mr Lipton. I have a fight on this Friday also so I will try and put it up here also. Again it is a senior bout.

[GPater11093]

Mr Lipton, had another fight 2 days ago.

Here it is. I am in Blue. I lost a majority decision by 1 point and have a rematch on Friday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ynviiRVdT4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCl7QNX3Mvc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYHX2lKuzrc

[Dino1]

I know that due to injureis, some of you can no longer do shoulder presses and instead are doing lateral raises. This is how the late Vince Gironda recommended doing them. I cut and pasted this from an earler writing of his:
Start the Lateral Raise touching dumbbells in front of the thighs with all four bells touching; elbows slightly bent and raise to the side, keeping the weights in front of the body all the way up to ear level (no higher). Now for the most important part of the movement: The Front Bell must be lower than the Rear Bell. If the Front Bell is higher you are working the overworked Front Deltoid again. Remember, all bench presses and dumbbells work with the dumbbells held with palms facing the lower body are 90 degree Front Deltoid. Another aspect of Laterals is to round your shoulders forward and also use your elbows as a concentration point. In other words, lead with your elbows - and last, but not least - keep your knees slightly bent during the exercise. And always work in front of a mirror to catch any flaws in your performance.

[10-8]

Start the Lateral Raise touching dumbbells in front of the thighs with all four bells touching; elbows slightly bent and raise to the side, keeping the weights in front of the body all the way up to ear level (no higher). Now for the most important part of the movement: The Front Bell must be lower than the Rear Bell. If the Front Bell is higher you are working the overworked Front Deltoid again. Remember, all bench presses and dumbbells work with the dumbbells held with palms facing the lower body are 90 degree Front Deltoid. Another aspect of Laterals is to round your shoulders forward and also use your elbows as a concentration point. In other words, lead with your elbows - and last, but not least - keep your knees slightly bent during the exercise. And always work in front of a mirror to catch any flaws in your performance.

Another way of wording that is at the top of the movement, rotate your hands so the thumbs are pointing downwards (imagine pouring a teapot in each hand while your arms are extended out away from the body). You'll get a better medial head contraction that way.

The same type of principle applies when you train biceps with dumbells. By rotating your hands (thumbs) outwards in the peak contraction position you'll better bring into play the brachialis, the muscle which lies underneath the biceps and thus get a more intense contraction.

[Dino1]

Ron, I just watched the first Foreman-Frazier fight and I don't mean to second guess the third man in the ring who I know is right up there seeing things that I can't see, but I think Mercante let it go a bit too long. I don't want to sound like a little old lady in tennis shoes who is afraid of a bloody nose, but those were really brain jarring blows Joe was being hit with. I know his corner could have jumped in and stopped it the Victor Valle jumped in for Cooney against Holmes, but it is really the ref's job. What is your opinion on the reffing of this fight? Do you think it was stopped at the right time? Am I off on this?

[Adeyinka]

Ron,

You've probably answered this at some point over the years.

What is your view about isometric exercise? To what degree do you incorporate such exercises in your training regime?

Ali, Bruce Lee and Arnold supposedly utilised this form of training and attested to its benefits.

I've just rediscoved my old but still functioning Bullworker X5 which I first purchased in the 1980s, and recall using it on a regular basis while totally eschewing -for quite a while- the use of weights.

I'm particularly looking forward to finding out how effective the abdominal-focused exercises will be in my 40s compared to when I was in my 20s. (I have never taken to sit-ups etc)

Cheers,

ADE

[Ron Lipton]

I know that due to injureis, some of you can no longer do shoulder presses and instead are doing lateral raises. This is how the late Vince Gironda recommended doing them. I cut and pasted this from an earler writing of his:
Start the Lateral Raise touching dumbbells in front of the thighs with all four bells touching; elbows slightly bent and raise to the side, keeping the weights in front of the body all the way up to ear level (no higher). Now for the most important part of the movement: The Front Bell must be lower than the Rear Bell. If the Front Bell is higher you are working the overworked Front Deltoid again. Remember, all bench presses and dumbbells work with the dumbbells held with palms facing the lower body are 90 degree Front Deltoid. Another aspect of Laterals is to round your shoulders forward and also use your elbows as a concentration point. In other words, lead with your elbows - and last, but not least - keep your knees slightly bent during the exercise. And always work in front of a mirror to catch any flaws in your performance.

Ron: I remember his teachings well and have absorbed them long ago. It is good to see this again, and it has merit. Thanks buddy.

[Ron Lipton]

Another way of wording that is at the top of the movement, rotate your hands so the thumbs are pointing downwards (imagine pouring a teapot in each hand while your arms are extended out away from the body). You'll get a better medial head contraction that way.

The same type of principle applies when you train biceps with dumbells. By rotating your hands (thumbs) outwards in the peak contraction position you'll better bring into play the brachialis, the muscle which lies underneath the biceps and thus get a more intense contraction.

Ron: Understood and I train this way also especially to warm up.

[Ron Lipton]

[QUOTE=Dino1]Ron, I just watched the first Foreman-Frazier fight and I don't mean to second guess the third man in the ring who I know is right up there seeing things that I can't see,

R: That is ok, I will for you. It was a horrible job as many of his fights were.
He was Always too far away, too archaic in his beliefs as to what a ref should do, always slapping them hard on the back, always like his kid barking commands for the camera, always posing while guys got the living crap knocked out of them while he allowed too many punches to land after a man was helpless and always but always profiling for the camera.



but I think Mercante let it go a bit too long. I don't want to sound like a little old lady in tennis shoes who is afraid of a bloody nose, but those were really brain jarring blows Joe was being hit with.

R. Horrible job.



I know his corner could have jumped in and stopped it the Victor Valle jumped in for Cooney against Holmes, but it is really the ref's job. What is your opinion on the reffing of this fight? Do you think it was stopped at the right time? Am I off on this?[/QUOTE

R Frazier is lucky to be alive because like the Junior, the Senior loved to be on camera for as long as possible and if a boxer dared to interfere with that agenda, he was destined to be made to fight so more TV time could be given to that ultra conservative Republican family whether the boxer had a torn out knee like Yuri Foreman, a brain injury like Scotland, or was bounced up and down with concussive shots like Frazier, their lives meant NOTHING as long as King Arthur was on camera. If anyone doubts that ask Randy Gordon.

[Ron Lipton]

I would add that they BOTH could do anything they wanted for decades due to the symbiotic relationship they both enjoyed with politicians, Athletic Commission political hacks, and sports writers and FIGHT MANAGERS via a quid pro quo relationship. No one had the balls, the intelligence or the eye sight to ever question the endless parade of mistakes they made, nor did anyone ever even care.

[Ron Lipton]

Ron,

You've probably answered this at some point over the years.

What is your view about isometric exercise? To what degree do you incorporate such exercises in your training regime?

R. If I was in a hospital, or a 24 hour solitary confinement situation and was recovering from a post surgery situation and could do no other exercise but push my hands together, it would be better than nothing at all, while driving a truck or trapped in a mine in Chile. Other than that , I would have to find a way to ease my way into more movement, stretching, yoga, pilates, and weight training easing my way into it.

Ali, Bruce Lee and Arnold supposedly utilised this form of training and attested to its benefits.

R. YES, YES AND YES AGAIN, but as a supplement not a substitute as a panacea for looking good, maintaining core health, lean muscular body mass, and flexibility.

I've just rediscoved my old but still functioning Bullworker X5 which I first purchased in the 1980s, and recall using it on a regular basis while totally eschewing -for quite a while- the use of weights.

R. It is a good thing to be sure and a fire starter log so to speak for igniting a segue into more substantial training. I saw all your pictures and you were in absolutely fantastic and enviable shape which can be reached again very quickly.

I'm particularly looking forward to finding out how effective the abdominal-focused exercises will be in my 40s compared to when I was in my 20s. (I have never taken to sit-ups etc)

R. My ab routine is superb and if done slowly along with warm ups, stretching, and daily use along with the right diet will produce the most beautiful waist area you could want.

It is my business and I am working on creating an E-book for sale using myself at my age as an example of how much my methods work.

Maintaining the abdominal area is so important, it just makes a person feel and look so much better without starving, yet one must want it and then commit daily to working at it. You always looked to be in superb shape Ade and I know how hard you have been working on those two fabulous book projects.



Cheers,

ADE

best,
Ron

[doomeddisciple]

Ron -

I know you're writing a book like a memoir of your life and times in the boxing game, but there's two other books I'd love to read by you.

One a boxing fitness and instruction/video type book.

The other on refereeing boxing matches.

[Theo Netherland]

Have you seen this Ron?

What's my Line? Dick Tiger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyZwj9UurN0

[Ron Lipton]

Have you seen this Ron?

What's my Line? Dick Tiger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyZwj9UurN0

RL: A great gift Theo, thank you so much.

I have passed this on to his daughter tonight. I recently produced a homage to him which was shown as part of a DVD to Nigerian dignitaries at the Dick Tiger Foundation opening in Nigeria from which his daughter just returned.

Thank you once again,

Ron

[Ron Lipton]

Ron -

I know you're writing a book like a memoir of your life and times in the boxing game, but there's two other books I'd love to read by you.

One a boxing fitness and instruction/video type book.

The other on refereeing boxing matches.

RL: I appreciate your interest very much and will produce those asap, The book which I am still working on will be powerful.

I recently made our oral arguments for the restoration of my referee license in Supreme court and await the decision. after very powerful submissions by my side. I will get all those years back so wrongly taken from me and those responsible will not have their lawyers paid for, I assure you.

[Theo Netherland]

Hi Ron, I have a few questions about Sonny Liston. According to some sources he had 24 brothers and sisters. So this makes me wonder if you have ever met anyone of them? Or maybe an other relative?

And then there is Liston’s mysterious death. Somewhere on this forum is an article that says it isn’t true that Ali changed his glove during his first Cooper fight. It’s a hoax that has become common believe. I’ve a little bit a feeling that something similar with Liston’s death is going on. I wonder what’s so mysterious about it. As you can see, and I’m sure you know, in the part of the documentary below, his death is official ruled as of natural causes. That means Liston isn’t murdered. If there was the slightest doubt the officials would, or at least should, have left that option open and come up with something else then natural causes. What's your idea?

Sonny Liston - The Mysterious Life and Death of a Champion - (6/6)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTOneaD9wYY

Regards Theo

[Ron Lipton]

Hi Theo,

Several people have written about this in depth along with HBO's documentary on the subject. I read Nich Tosches, "The Devil and Sonny Liston," and have heard and seen everything there is to see and then some.

I knew him and met him through Rubin Carter who was quite tight with Sonny and we had some drinks on occasion. I saw him in training up close and personal and used to talk to Willie Reddish about him on the side.

Lets put it this way, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas and if you fuck with the bull you get the horn. Mob guys are not afraid of fighters or anyone else believe me, its the punks that will kill you not an athletic warrior and they never run out of guys who will do anything for a rep one way or another.

Remember the hit mob, "The Ice Man," in NJ Kuklinksy, he killed so many people in so many ways the TV expose on him was horrifying.

If they want to kill you they find a way. They knew Sonny liked to party so who knows for sure whether he OD'd or they gave him a hot shot or dirty dope.

No one is talking, they never do.

[Theo Netherland]

Thanks for your answer Ron. The way you said it it meant that you never heard anything about a Sonny Liston relative if I’m correct. Well I’m just curious about them. They sure could tell a whole lot of interesting stories that no one knows. And if they die no one ever will know. They must be in their eighties or nineties now. Or worse. My idea is that the journalist that catches them, and their stories, could make a hell of an award winning documentary. I hope that I’d bring some one on an idea. That’s all.

Regards Theo

[GPater11093]

Mr Lipton why was you stripped of your referee license?

Every fight I have seen of you, you have done a superb job.

[Dino1]

Ron, this is going to seem like a really off-the-wall question for a boxing forum, but do you favor the death sentence? I know it is not boxing related, but perhaps you could share your feelings on this emotional issue.

[Ron Lipton]

Mr Lipton why was you stripped of your referee license?

Every fight I have seen of you, you have done a superb job.

R. No Greg, never "Stripped," I had formerly reported and complained about a variety of issues including the tampering with my assignment to referee Delahoya v Leija by former and then present officials, and the subsequent harassment from it, which branched off into other areas which so far has resulted in 4 Federal Civil rights suit wins by me including punitive damages in tangential issues with the biggest one still to come.

Certain members of the NYSAC past and present were involved and I recently presented a powerful submission to a Supreme Court Judge via an article 78 Petition and am awaiting a decision. The evidence of using the worst officials possible who caused ring death and injuries was strong and indefensible, and the more foul ups they caused the more they used them.

When I get it all into Federal court, there will be no more places for them to hide anymore and no one will pay for their lawyers but them as they will be sued individually for the years I have lost and their complicity in it.

[Ron Lipton]

Ron, this is going to seem like a really off-the-wall question for a boxing forum, but do you favor the death sentence? I know it is not boxing related, but perhaps you could share your feelings on this emotional issue.

R. In the case of the Connecticut family murdered by those two pieces of human garbage, the death penalty by lethal injection is too good for them both.
I would love 5 minutes with both of them together all of us unarmed, if that answers your question.

In the case of a home invasion against a totally innocent family just picked for a robbery which resulted in their torture and death, words just fail me.