Sorry for the spelling errors, was typing at the speed of light.
Sorry for the spelling errors, was typing at the speed of light.
Ron, I wonder if you ever watch MMA and if so, what you think of the refereeing.
I, for one, find it to be incredibly good, consistently far better than I see in boxing (present company excluded!).
In the UFC in particular, Big John McCarthy and the other refs are NEVER questioned or criticized, and rightly so. Watching them dive to the floor to instantly get in between a KO'd fighter and his opponent is something; the refs are quite dynamic and are usually martial artists themselves. Usually muscular guys and not senior citizens. (This is in contrast to the ref(s) in the very first UFC!)
In fact, the UFC judges rarely get it wrong and are rarely criticized.
Ron, if you have viewed MMA to any extent, what do YOU think of the refs? Thanks.
And yes, I could not only live without that put-on gruff voice of McCarthy's, but the copying of Mills Lane's words is wrong. I wasn't quite going there in my questions as much as simply addressing the job they do controlling the action, but you are right on 100% about the wrongful co-opting of Lane's signature remark (though I preferred Mills's reply to Mike Tyson in Holyfield #2 after Tyson denied the first bite . . . "ummm BULLSHIT!").
Last edited by Michael Frank; 09-05-2011 at 07:37 AM.
Basically they do a good job, I agree, I wish they would stand them up a bit quicker to renew the fighting, only when the ground work is going nowhere and the fans are falling asleep along with being very vigilant about those extra couple of shots delivered when a man is out cold from punches or letting a choke go too long also. All of that is flirting with an accidental death or permanent injury.
I have sort of an oddball topic or something to get your thoughts on.
It's regarding Vitali Klitschko
To me, the fact he is 40 and can still bend at the waist the way he does is incredible. And he always has the better legs in his matchups. Maybe not the prettiest but he sure keeps them moving.
fights with those hands low but see's everything the opponent is doing and just doesn't seem to miss interypret anything.
The guy has had back/shoulder/knee surgeries. What do you think he is doing as far as conditioning/training to keep that particular skill of his? I cannot remember an tall awkward style guy keeping those physical attributes for 15 years. Let alone a heavyweight--their deterioration is usually worse. I've watched the guys whole career and sent away for his fights from his pro debut. He always leaned back and seemed to use a Eubank/Floyd Mayweather radar for incoming punches. He moves his feet a lot better than Eubank and bends at the waist a lot more. And 1 thing he is not iven credit for is how good the guy counters opponents jabs. He comes right over the top with that right hand of his and pretty much takes away that punch from opponents. At 40, he still has that reflex!??
Even in the Adamek fight, Vitali is smart in there. he'll stand perfectly straight up and jab and throw shots. Then, he'll lean in with his weight on the front foot and throw. Next, he'll retreat and fire while moving to 1:00 and drop that right hand lead in there. changing. Always changing with that footwork circling both ways and that arching of his torso.
I can't believe and old tall heavy is able to keep that stuff intact after so much time. I know he shows up to training camps light and puts on like 5-10 pounds for the fight. May that have something to do with it? I just don't understand how the guy's knees and waist and back can perform at the level it does. I thought those parts of his game should've have been gone by about 2002 and he'd be an upright and flatfooted guy with zero mobility---you know, like everyone else.
I'm interested in your take on this. Thanks.
The Ukranian/Russian/European devotional regimen of strength training, functional body building combined with a boxing regimen as depicted in Dolph's training in Rocky is going to result in a superior physical specimen any way you cut the cake. When you add to it gargantuan height and weight you do not exactly produce a stiff KO victim like Anders Eckland via Tim Witherspoon.
This is a superior intellect in a Goliath body who can apply himself to any endeavor of study and excel. Turn this Avatar loose in a barren wasteland of heavyweight talent with fat midriffs like Peters, Aerola, and mustard seed heart performances like Haye and then you have a one eyed King in the land of the blind.
This is a very strong man blessed with genetic gifts who hung in there with Lennox Lewis a true destroyer with both hands. Quite honestly I do not see great boxing skills here, but I do see an extremely tall and heavy boxer, who knows what it is like to be in that ring as far as range, defense and how to use his limited skills against the mediocre opposition that boxing provides in that limited division.
Joe Louis would annihilate him like Buddy Baer and Carnera. Tyson would break him in half and Foreman and Liston would chase him out of the ring. He would paw, slap and lean back successfully against the rest of the crop where his size alone would allow him to survive his way to his usual decision win of sticking his long arms out, leaning back, pushing right hands into his opponent's face and arm punching with pawing long and short hooks with awkward uppercuts thrown into the potpourri as usual.
As soon as he got hit in the puss, he would freak out like Mayweather does and grab and hold all night long stinking out the joint like rotten wolf pussy in the Bronx Zoo. He has skills, so did Goliath, it is just there are no David's on planet earth in boxing, they are all in the MMA where some of them would break him in half. Yet, I like him, for his dedication to training, his sportsmanship, as I do his brother, both are gentleman and represent the sport well outside the ring and certainly are light years from being the usual thugs we hate that talk juvenile smack to their opponents.
I respect them both but do not think they have great skill, only great size. I respect with all my heart that they come into the ring in shape and earn their dough by at least looking the part.
"Wants A Blast"
In a recent issue of The Ring you list some of the most outrageous decisions in ring history. Some of these have happened recently. But you don't blast the perpetrating process. You are inclined to go for a cooling process. I remember when Ruben Carter knocked out Griffith in the first round and you gave it little attention because you did not seem to like Carter.
Editor's Note: --- Carter got all the credit that was coming to him
From the December, 1970 issue of The RING, "Punch Lines (letters to the editor)" section.
LOL...man, Ron, imagine how much enmity the late Nat Fleischer would have had for you in these times, as you take on some pets of the boxing establishment?
I was talking to an old friend of mine and we got to talking about how effective the unconventional type style is to break down these days. Incredible. We got talking about Mayweather and then we got around to Vitali. Now I don't think Floyd has had the surgeries of Klitschko, but those reflexes do deteriorate by his age/inactivity in that weightclass. A heavyweight at 40 with any upper body movement, let alone legs is a Haley's comet.
Years ago, the unconventional guy was the type that would not go far in the sport due to that style. It got you beat against the upper echelon. It just seems like that style has now turned into the toughest to solve, is what we came up with. Agree, or is that another inaccurate conclusion?
What is strange about that quote as I do know myself, is I have never spelled Rubin as Ruben. I would never use a phrase like "The perpetrating process."
I always sign my name Ron instead of Ronald, but I do remember seeing something like that in an old ring, and I did live in Verona and was a police officer there, so someone must have been playing a joke on me. As to old Nat, I met him many times, he was like a teeny tiny little parakeet, and old curmudgeon and I used to go up to the old Ring office in Manhattan and look at all the memorabilia there. He was nice to me but his ideas of the greatest boxers of all time was so far up in the trees it was in back of beyond.
I agree robertk, it is also true that in the land of the Klits there have not been any skilled heavyweights or are even remotely dynamic fighters to nullify their particular methods.
Even a seasoned pro with fluid moves and all the skills has difficulty in sparring and in actual fights with unconventional styles and awkward type of attacks and defense. Ali had fits with Jimmy Young's tactics and going far back Lou Nova a skilled fighter was destroyed by the unconventional fouling of Galento.
Any great asset can be overcome with a counter plan but one must have the dynamics to bring it on, like Dempsey against Williard. Both Klits and Floyd can be beaten, but like Henry Fonda playing a lightning fast gunfighter said in the old western Warlock, to DeForest Kelly, who said, "You know Marshall, some one is going to take those gold handled guns away from you and paint those handles black so they don't shine so much, Fonda draws his colt .45 down on him like a snake tongue and says, Yeah, but who's to do it?"
Great recollection of Fleischer for us. I only wish I had the opportunity of seeing all of that great boxing history in their midtown offices. Yes, his perception of fistic greatness was certainly influenced heavily by the greats he had seen in action in his salad days. Any perusal of the old RINGs that ran articles of comparison clearly showed that.
Wonder what happened to all of that great stuff he had? I know there have been several auctions of memorabilia over the years, and if I look I will find the catalog that Craig Hamilton composed for the Loubet auction of the 90's, but shudder to think of how much old paper wound up in the trash heap? In a recent "old" article I read in a vintage B.I., it tells of how some of the old Jacobs Beach guys were clearing out storage areas at the old Garden, tossing piles of old fight posters in the garbage. My heart was breaking as I read it....
When I lived in West Orange as a kid and was training daily in my basement with my hanging heavy bag, speed bag and daily trips to the boxing gyms in Newark and Orange NJ, my basement wall was decorated with all the gold/yellow posters from all the fights at the Garden, Archer v Tiger, Carter v Fernandez, Tiger v Carter, Bonavena, Griffith, you name it I had it on my wall. Then with floods, moving, and the years going by they were all gone. If only I had saved them with more care.
I did have a great time in The Ring offices hearing about Greb, Ketchel, Tommy Ryan, Corbett et al from Fleischer among others he had seen. Him and Sam Taub were a pair of characters, they even used same in a cameo at ringside in "Somebody Up There Likes Me," his one or two lines were just horribly delivered too, very unrealistic.
Hi Ron, I’ve a few additional questions about the answer you gave to the questions of Roberk about Vitali Klitschko. But first, I always try to see things from positive point of view, but todays heavyweightdivision is horrible indeed.
You said VK has limited skills. If you compare him to Ali for example a layman can see you’re right. But, would Ali have kept the skills he had, the things he was famous for, if he was 6′ 7½″ ? And are VK’s skills according to you even too limited for a 40 years old of 6′ 7½″ ? I mean, could it, or should it, have been better?
I think both Vitali and his brother are extremely well conditioned athletes and with their unusual height height for boxers have done the best they possibly could have. They have courage, pride, dedication, and good reflexes for big men. They do not have functional flexibility and have limited skeletal mechanics due to their style, strength and bodybuilding training and cannot explode in combat like Tyson did against Holmes, Spinks, Berbick, Thomas, Williams et al or Ali did at 6'3" against Terrell, Williams, Liston and all the rest. Another 3 or four inches in height is not the answer. They are what they are, stand up European style boxers with great height, weight and reach, stiff as a guy doing life in solitary who just swallowed 3 10mg pills of Cialis and had the Playmate of the month visit him for a conjugal visit.
Ron, I heard at a meeting the other day in New York, that your going to get your New York license back. Did you hear anything on this?
No. If true it would be wonderful to have before I am using a walker. Good to hear from you Henry.
Does anyone remember a fight long ago on TV, in NY or NJ I believe, they were lighter division boxers where one guy had his back against the ropes, the referee tells them to break and when the referee wasn't looking the guy with his back against the ropes punches the other boxer and knocks him out. Famous incident and I can't remember it.
I don't think this is what you mean Ron but I give it a try. This one was in NY and you could call it in the lighter division, and it was some time ago, and the referee wasn't looking, and it was a knock out, and it was a famous incident. But this was after the fight...
no that was not the one, the one I am talking about happened way before that but it was on TV and the KO shot was right over the ref's shoulder.
I had refereed Richard Grant the victim here and was sickened by the bad sportsmanship by Butler, who went on to murder Max Kellerman's brother, a sad and terrible thing after a place to live was given to Butler and help, he repaid it with murder.
I'd read the story of the murder. It’s obvious there’s something wrong in Butlers head.
I doubted this was what you were looking for, just gave it a try. But I have a question about this case anyway. How is it possible that James Butler was ever allowed to fight again? To me what he did is at least as bad as what Luis Resto did and he got banned from boxing for life. Within three years Butler was allowed back in the ring. If the way he sucker punched Grant is not a reason for a ban for life, than what is?
I have an additional question. I haven’t seen the fight between Richard Grant and James Butler. It's not on youtube. All I know about it is that Grant won. But I wonder did there maybe something happen during the fight that caused Butlers response. If Joseph Agbeko did this to Abner Mares after thier fight after that many low blows it wouldn’t be the right thing but very understandable.
Last edited by Theo Netherland; 10-18-2011 at 05:32 PM.
R: What he did was as bad as it gets. He was formerly charged and sent to jail. It is true that NY gave him his license back when he got out of prison.
He was supposedly Bi-Polar and the horrific murder of Max's brother who helped him still gives me the chills as to the incomprehensible tragedy of it all.
John Wesley Meekins v Mohammed Kawoya 1988
Looks like a great supporting card for Dec 3rd, Cotto v Margarito, good for boxing.
Have a great thanksgiving to everyone here,
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Thanks Randy I hope you had a wonderful holiday. I got my NYSAC referee license back and look forward to being in that ring again. I have stayed very active and am blessed in being in good shape, I only hope I finally get my chance.
best to all,
That's great news! Look forward to seeing you in the ring again over here in Oz.
Even though we don't celebrate Thanksgiving here, I give thanks to the CBZ and its members for passing on and sharing a wealth of boxing knowledge.
All the best to you and yours,