Ron Lipton: Q & A Thread

[Ron Lipton]

[QUOTE=PeterD]Hi Ron

I just watched the Oleg Maskaev vs Sam Peter fight and was wondering about the body shape of these guys (more so Peter). Big men and maybe can't get a physique like a Greb or Carter, but surely they can look a little more chiselled? To this laymans eyes, I would say that Peter didn't do that much training.

Love him or hate him, at least Vladimir Klitschko looks in shape when he fights.

Do you thing these guys train as hard as they should?

Reply: At their age now looking the way they do they have put themselves into a niche of quality muscular developement level D+. They can Run, spar, do boxing basics until the cat's eyes spin like Dan Akroyd says and they will look the same. Kelly Pavlik is a very strong guy via plyomentics, sledgehammer V giant tire and boxing basics but is still quite underdeveloped.

All of these men including Juan Diaz have subscribed to a non bodybuilding regimen and they are all tough. Yet as time goes by in my humble opinion they have made a mistake as much so as a boxer relying solely on bodybuilding techniques while sacrificing basics. You have to do both in this day and age because muscular strength is a very necessary resource and commodity to possess. During the fight that well of power must be tapped into to explode properly. Carrying 5 lbs of extra fat on the obliques , lower back, mid or lower abdomen is a waste of weight.

Bob Foster, Hearns, Pavlik can generate power with both sides of their body with snap and torque without large biceps or high upper pecs, so for boxers the kind of build and body development I have my fighters train for is not a bodybuilding place 2nd in the Olympia build. Rather it is having the entire machine an amalgum of muscle and ligament and tendon strength achieved within the parameters of one's own height and weight class you are to be competing in.

They should have put Maskaev in addition to whatever he was doing, (He is absolutely finished now and should get out of this game immediately if not sooner before he loses his faculties.) on a high rep, low to moderate weight training program, on a bow flex for stretching and elongonating the muscle groups while adding weight per set and work on his obvious sagging weak points.

Samuel Peters must lose that Ray Mercer Godzilla V Girtha midsection or it will get thicker, wider and the girth will widen more and more like a bubblegum blob. The clock is ticking and he ruins himself between fights obviously, and all the situps in the world will not spot reduce that area. Pay money for the right trainer and you will be set right.

Juan Diaz's keep slamming you with Joe Frazier workload output train got derailed and Juan's baby fat is a major detriment to keeping a locamotive steaming along. The well of power runs dry as much as a bear feeding off of itself in hybernation. Stick to whatever he was doing that made him do well, and add a body conditioning program for 1 hour per day of additional hard work to develope that frightening word MUSCLE. You need it more than Dracula needs blood, not tight muscle, not big muslce, but develope the body and get rid of that intercelluar fat all over and have some usable muscular power.

On an unrelated note, read the biography of Micky Ward and the referee Laurence Cole comes off poorly in it. Do you thing he is any good? He seems to be the referee that gets a lot of big fights so someone must like him.

Reply: His father Dickie Cole long the emperor of Texas boxing put a new definition in nepotism with the non ending, embarrassing, no accountability use of Lawrence or if I may. Larry. I know them both and I like Larry, he is a nice good looking kid and family man like Randy Neuman he sells insurance and Lawrence had a nice thing going in selling fight insurance too.

Dickie, Sam and his crew were something to see at the boxing conventions via the NABF and WBC boys. Lawrence got every major fight in Texas since the fall of the Alamo. Remember the major scandal of him going over to the favorite fighter telling him privilge information to aid the favorite in his option to quit and still be ahead on the scorecards. Nice. Sorry I never thought he was a good referee. Nicer hair than me though, at least now.

Regards,

Peter.

best,
Ron

[10-8]

Ron, I thought you might like to see this which sums up officiating at it's worst.

The referee in question is Lucien Joubert who incidentally also reffed Ali-Spinks II.

Check out how Joubert loses complete control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzMRXEVb6n0

[Ron Lipton]

Hi 10-8,

Thank you for showing me that. It was very upsetting and I have been privy to seeing many referee nightmares like that. It is an abomination of boxing to ever appoint someone like that to a major fight again. You can train them and train them but you are playing dice with the fighter's lives and quite frankly they do not deserve another big chance continuously.

One of the worst was the Arizona referee I believe, who did the Alex Garcia V Bull Benton fight, Yanoz or something like that and a few others who continually foul up until someone dies, is injured badly or the fight is ruined.
I knew Bull Benton and spent time with him in Mike Spinks training camp before the Tyson fight. I spent the whole summer with Eddie Futch.
Benton was struck while helpless on the ropes so many times I shudder thinking about it, while the referee just stood there watching while Benton had his hands down. If he had his hands up and was trying to roll and slip shots it would then depend on the force of the blows or if they were missing.
They weren't and it was horrible to watch.

I will never know what they are thinking in there or why they just go to sleep as far as the right thing to do. Close calls are one thing or if a guy in the 4th row thinks a fighter is getting hit but some of the shots are missing by a half inch and only the ref can see it, I mean blatant, outrageous mistakes by guys who refereed in the amateurs too long and cannot shake the style or worse are just some pal who is appointed with no real underpinnings in pro boxing.

Take a look at the finish of Pernell Whitiker V Diobleys Huertado on HBO with Mercante jr, or where he lets Charles Murray slam Reggie Green into a knockdown with his head hitting the lower strand of the rope, and lets him get up to fight without a count, or Michael Grant being held with one hand by Lennox Lewis while he clubs him into a knockout with the other without calling holding and hitting, until finallly he lets Beathoven Scotland take it all night long while the announcers call for the fight to be stopped until it is too late, or the extra shot Ruddock hits Dokes he refereed.

Having a only few fights in the sub novice class, boxing with Juan Laporte as a tiny kid and losing at 112lbs and calling it quits, or refereeing in the amateurs, or having contacts through your father who is the chief of officials in the WBC does not make for strong underpinnings in pro boxing which has been proven with the loss of someone's life. I wrote about this way before it happened and no one listened. They kept appointing him until like I said years before, someone died. All the bullshit replies in the world cannot keep you from watching the films and judging for yourself.

Look at some of the alphabet group appointments and what it did to Gerald McClellan, another horrible referee nightmare. If a fighter wobbles a little but still has fire in his eyes and wants to continue, if the ref decides to let it go, the other guy can turn it around.

Wayne Kelley did a good job in the Leland Hardy V Ike Padilla fight where they were both wobbling but wanted to go on.
They still had some fight left in them.

Or if its a blatant pause after a guy goes down and is hit on the deck, like the film you show or when Roy Jones Jr, paused then hit Montell on the deck, or a pause then a deliberate foul strike as opposed to a punch in the heat of battle continuing in motion while the blood is up. Big difference.

Hey, its a pro fight in there and its tough all over Brooklyn too. The thing is to be there like the Flash if the finsiher is being put on a guy. Look at the films of the same ref being used and doing the same thing either NEVER calling the fouls with point deductions or letting the guy get massacred without getting there in time. Cooney V Norton, Mercer V Morrison, Tua V Ruiz, Ali V Wepner (500 rabbit punches without a point deduction.) then being used again and again, Ali V Frazier II, calling the second round bell ending the round when the bell did not ring during a time when Ali stunned Joe. C'mon the writing is on the wall, you don't use a guy like that again but they did.

That was some film you keyed in on, what an untrained individual.

[Rafael]

Hey Ron, how have you been my friend? My apologies if you have already answered this question, bu I am curious as to which are your favorite fellow referees, both of old time and modern? Are there any guys you particularly looked-up to and took as your model when you were developing your craft? Also, which of today's refs you think are the best? Take care pal.

[Ron Lipton]

Hi Professor,
I missed talking with you. How is school and the family?
I never liked any of the old time referees at all really, look at the films and you will know why. Even tough old guys like Paul Cavalier who let guys almost get killed in there were not good. Arthur Donavan's films are not too good either, I watched them all Buck McTiernan, Zack, Hazzard, Colan, LoBianco, Mercante Sr, and they had some good nights but there were things they did I did not like.

Smoger finally came into his own for a non fighter (Despite what he tells you) and his intelligence and sharp eye and coolness under pressure is ok with me if I was assigning guys to referee.

Despite past tensions, and some terrible personal injustices I suffered, along with my vehement objection to the use of Junior and a few others.. the guys who was the best trainer of referees that I respected the most was Randy Gordon.

He took it seriously, prepared well for the seminars, in those days before he lost his job, he treated everyone with respect, and he was open to discussion and improvements and had a good heart.

I never really respected any of the others except him at that time.

[Ron Lipton]

PS I would add Wayne Kelly to the list as someone I would trust as a referee.
Pretty nice gentleman outside of the ring also. We've had some distance because of the Comm between us and my thoughts on a few other things but in the day I always liked him and wished him well.

He's had some bad nights but everybody does. He deserves a lot more work that Junior in NY and NY guys should be first choice over other state refs that are brought in.

[doomeddisciple]

G'day Ron -

While on referee's and your post about rabbit punches in the Ali Wepner fight -I watched Lionel Rose fight Rocky Gattellari for the Australian Bantamweight title in the fight immediatley prior to Rose's victory over Fighting Harada.

The fight took place in 1967 in Sydney and was a classic Aussie rivalry, with Rose representing Melbourne and Gattellari - 21-1-0 at the time, being favoured by the Sydney-siders. This drew on some all time inter-city rivalry the two biggest Aussie cities have had over nearly everything since colonisation.

Anyway - Getting to the question!

In the fight, from round 1 on - and in part due to the way Rose would use shoulder and hip rolling movements to slip punches - Gattelari was catching him behind the ear or even further back on numerous occasions throughout the fight and never was warned once by the referee.

My question is how long ago was rabbit punching outlawed and how was it defined in the late 60's - Was rabbit punching only considered rabbit punching when the two fighters were engaged in a clinch or on top of one anther in the pocket?

Because at no time did the ref even say "Oi! Stop that mate! No rabbit punching here"!

I could only surmise that the rule may not have been around then or that it wasn't considered technically a rabbit punch unless the two fighters were in the clinch - Nearly all of the shots that were illegal to me were similar to Floyd Vs Hatton when Ricky lost a point - except they actually landed.

It didn't help Gattellari - He was dropped twice in the 13th and had to be stretchered out of the ring after a beautiful short right hand in the second knockdown. Of course it didn't seem to affect Mr Rose - As above, he put in the performance of his life in his very next fight.

Gattellari ended up drawing an 8 rounder a year later and the retired after he made an ill fated come back for the Aussie bantam crown over ten years later in 1979.

Also while on your assesment of ref's -

In your view - Is Jay Nady as bad a ref as everyone makes him out to be? You made the comment in a previous post about ref's ruining fights by stopping them too early - A stigma surrounding Nady since the Tszyu-Judah fight - Would you prefer to have Nady ref you fight or someone that lets it go too long before someone is seriously injured?

Joe Cortez is another one I'd love to read your thoughts on- I liked Joe when he refereed fights like Fenech Nelson I - where he did the opposite of the Mayweather/Hatton fight and let them go at it inside all night - I detested him when he DQ'd Tszyu for hitting on the break and breaking Leonardo Mas' jaw in the 1st round.

Always interested in your words mate, thanks,

Josh

[Ron Lipton]

G'day Ron -

While on referee's and your post about rabbit punches in the Ali Wepner fight -I watched Lionel Rose fight Rocky Gattellari for the Australian Bantamweight title in the fight immediatley prior to Rose's victory over Fighting Harada.

The fight took place in 1967 in Sydney and was a classic Aussie rivalry, with Rose representing Melbourne and Gattellari - 21-1-0 at the time, being favoured by the Sydney-siders. This drew on some all time inter-city rivalry the two biggest Aussie cities have had over nearly everything since colonisation.

Reply: Always liked Lionel, he was tough and skilled. Olivares did the job on him but that is no shame. Those were the days.

Anyway - Getting to the question!

In the fight, from round 1 on - and in part due to the way Rose would use shoulder and hip rolling movements to slip punches - Gattelari was catching him behind the ear or even further back on numerous occasions throughout the fight and never was warned once by the referee.

My question is how long ago was rabbit punching outlawed and how was it defined in the late 60's - Was rabbit punching only considered rabbit punching when the two fighters were engaged in a clinch or on top of one anther in the pocket?

Because at no time did the ref even say "Oi! Stop that mate! No rabbit punching here"!

I could only surmise that the rule may not have been around then or that it wasn't considered technically a rabbit punch unless the two fighters were in the clinch - Nearly all of the shots that were illegal to me were similar to Floyd Vs Hatton when Ricky lost a point - except they actually landed.

It didn't help Gattellari - He was dropped twice in the 13th and had to be stretchered out of the ring after a beautiful short right hand in the second knockdown. Of course it didn't seem to affect Mr Rose - As above, he put in the performance of his life in his very next fight.

Gattellari ended up drawing an 8 rounder a year later and the retired after he made an ill fated come back for the Aussie bantam crown over ten years later in 1979.

Reply: Good to her from you and thanks for writing. The age old practice of two fighters constantly going behind the head as if it were an integral part of a professional fighter's reportoir can be seen on film since boxing film was made. If you watch the fights through the decades you can see them all hammering away behind the head in clinches, tit for tat, retaliating in kind without a damn thing ever said by the referee. I remember Rubin Carter and Georgie Benton doing that to each other, and Giardello and all his opponents.
Griffith, Ortega, Florentino Fernandez, Torres all the guys.

It seemed all of a sudden in the early 70's or so, and I am happy to stand corrected by our vast amount of knowledgeable guys on the Zone, it was becoming an unnacceptable foul. It is a dangerous thing to do and it will cause damage to a fighter as sure as time goes on. What was allowed in the Ali v Wepner fight was a disgrace and a mockery of having a referee in there at all. I still cannot believe what was allowed.

Also while on your assesment of ref's -

In your view - Is Jay Nady as bad a ref as everyone makes him out to be?
Reply: Yes.

You made the comment in a previous post about ref's ruining fights by stopping them too early - A stigma surrounding Nady since the Tszyu-Judah fight - Would you prefer to have Nady ref you fight or someone that lets it go too long before someone is seriously injured?

Reply: Neither. I want a guy who can differentiate between both scenarios accurately. E.g. Two punches land in a lightning, devastating fashion. I refereed David Tua twice and his hook was one of the hardest in history in my opinion. He hits John Ruiz and he hangs there with his hands down, Then and there is the time to stop it while he is helpless, not being so far away that you can't get there on a Harley in time to stop two more shots that might kill the man.

Ali is on the ropes taking a battering from Foreman but some of the punches are missing and he is firing back, he is blocking them, or Merqui Sosa is on the ropes being blasted by Roy Jones Jr, but some of the shots are missing and he is not hurt and his hands are up, a good referee knows the combatants, their tendencies and must keep his head without paying attention to ANYONE from ringside or pulling the trigger too soon.

Getting up from a devastating knockdown is different that getting up from a flash knockdown and severe concussion can be present. I was always trained to make them take a step forward and give them room to do so, not like the time Lewis was stopped and the referee stood so close to him he could not fall forward but into the referee, give them room, be close enough to give them a loud count and with your fingers clearly shown, but back enough if they are standing to see if they wobble.

It comes from fight experience as a fighter and boxing guy, not from being an amateur referee.

Joe Cortez is another one I'd love to read your thoughts on- I liked Joe when he refereed fights like Fenech Nelson I - where he did the opposite of the Mayweather/Hatton fight and let them go at it inside all night - I detested him when he DQ'd Tszyu for hitting on the break and breaking Leonardo Mas' jaw in the 1st round.

Always interested in your words mate, thanks,

Reply: Sorry, I just never thought he was a good referee, too inconsistent, and shouts unintelligable gibberish commands, the commands are yelled out in mumbles and the cadence is bizzare and confusing. I respect the bi-lingual thing and I know his brother Mike had some fights in the Garden and Joe they say boxed a bit, but he is out of shape and has scored too many fights and built a career on Hazzard using him very much in NJ for a variety of reasons.
If anyone but him made these same mistakes so much they would be sat down long ago, despite having rhyming cute theme sayings in mid ring.

Makes way too many mistakes over the years and he is never, and I stress never, called on them. No one in charge cares who knows enough about boxing to take action and get others in there instead. It is a clique of ignorance never in this life to be broken unless a total house cleaning occurrs in NY, NJ and Nevada. There is not one commentator alive that acts like they know anything about refereeing. One guy does but he will never expose what they do, to remain politically correct. That one guy does know though but he won't admit the worst about them. Too tight a clique.

Josh

best,
Ron

[doomeddisciple]

God I love this board. It's a site that makes me feel like a sponge soaking up the knowledge.

Many thanks Ron, really appreciate it.

[Chris Nagel]

"2) FOCUS MITTS: I've seen an old clip of George Chuvalo hitting his trainers modified focus mitts (gloves worn backwards) but can't remember seeing any heavyweight champ before Tyson using them. When did focus mitts first begin to be used frequently in training?

Reply: In the days of yore in the land of Spartan, Tuf-Wear, Ben-Lee trunks,
G&S, Everlast black and white trunks, white and black, and the outrageous Red and white, blue and gold, that was about it as far as color. Emile Griffith's exciting ring togs via Lonsdale were the exception as were the Royal purple trunks Joe Louis would wear. All of a sudden like that black and white movie that turns color, anything and everthing appeared in ring clothing and equipment.

I would have to make a few calls to Ringside and the like to target the date, but you seem to be right as I never saw anything resembling a punch mitt in the traiing camps of Carter, Tiger, Ortiz, or in any NY or NJ gym back in the 60's.

When they first appeared in varied shapes and sizes I thought it was great as I used to use my buddy's hands to punch if you can believe that.
I have certainly used them the second they came out and have watched the best guys on them to emulate their secrets from Ken Adams to Roger Mayweather. There is a real skill in being a good mitt man so your fighter does not throw out his elbow or worse yet catch you in the ribs or kidneys with a real pro punch.

My guess is the 80's, but I would like to know for sure if anyone else cand pin point the date."

Hi Mr. Lipton and everyone. I think that you'd like to see this:

"Getting back to training, 'Cannonball' was the first trainer I saw utilize the medicine ball as a training tool to catch the punches of his fighter, and *Charley Goldman the trainer of 'Rocky' Marciano the first I observed using a modified version of the Punch Mitts which the modern day trainers swear by, there's only one problem new guys, fighting is an offensive and defensive game, punch mitts as used by the modern crowd are one way, offensive only, it doesn't teach any defense and gives your boxer a false sense of doing well. I use the type of punch mitt which is a combination pad and boxing glove so if my boxer makes a mistake he pays for it! You instruct the entire game not half of it!"



"Charley probably came up with this idea because 'Rocky' started late and originally he was very clumsy and he needed to find some way for 'The Rock' to refine his heavy punches, in lieu of wild haymakers."


This is from a website by an ex-pro named Tommy Noel. I found many of his articles interesting, especially his ideas on training. His website hasn't been updated since 2005, but it's still up if anyone is interested in what he wrote. http://www.oldschoolboxing.com/topics.html

Thinking about it now, I wonder what was Charlie thinking about when he came up with the mother of all punch mitts. Since the dawn of boxing, a lot of guys would practice catching each others punches on their palms. I suppose that Charlie Goldman was one of those guys. Even now Floyd Mayweather Sr. trains his fighters without wearing mitts. A question comes to mind, why wear mitts when you can do the same thing without them. The obvious answer is that protect the trainers hands and therefore the fighter can hit harder without as much risk of hurting his partner. Let's suppose that Charlie Goldman might have had some of his fighters practice throwing their punches punches on his palms. From his many fights his gnarley hands might've been hurting, and having a fighter that Marciano come along doesn't help them. Perhaps then Charlie came up with the punch mitts to take some of the sting out of Rocky's punches.

I don't know how punching mitts caught on, but imagine that someone took notice since Charlie Goldman would train Rocky at Stillman's where there were many other trainers that would soak up knowledge from each other, as well as other places where people could see them work.

I'd also like to add my own wrinkles to the speedbag. I always thought that it should be more than just a bicycle for the hands. For most purposes, I like to keep my training as close to how I'd fight as possible.

On the speedbag, I'd like to use real punches, jabs, straights, hooks, and uppercuts. I'd shift my weight from one leg to another, circle and side-step while keeping the bag in rhythm. I find that it's a great tool for developing that quickness that's so crucial in timing. Being able to stop the bag with a left hook, and moving my feet immediately after a punch to be in position to be able to land another punch from a different angle really take speed bag work to the next level.

Making the most of speedbag, you can further improve upon the idea of keeping your opponent in mind. Now although you're limited on what you can do with the speedbag, there is still a lot that you can do that most people don't even consider. Just take the simple concept of "opponent-does-x, you-do-y" on a speedbag you can also fine-tune a lot of those moves that you'd use in your fights. If you see something nifty while watching a fight, then if possible, why not work on it on the speedbag. e.g. In the first Marciano/Walcott fight, Walcott was able to draw a counter jab Marciano, then taking it, he quickly counters with his own jab which interrupts Marciano from bringing his left back to guard. Then like lightning, Walcotts right shoots in and rocks the Rock, buckling his opponent's knees and causing him to clinch. You see, with a little imagination you can work a lot of different moves/tactics on the speedbag. With all the fights out there, there are bound to be many things that you practice and add to your repertoir. If you decide to work in rounds, you can then work on particular things for each round. Take the minute break in between rounds to collect yourself and figure out what you're going to do next.

As for conditioning, the speed bag can take whatever energy you have left over after a good workout. Since conditioning is the emphasis you don't need to worry about working on your moves. Just keep the bag in rhythm, don't forget to pace yourself and breath in rhythm with your punches. Lastly, there's one thing that I'd like mention. I heard from a british trainer that I trust, that watched Roberto Duran train on the speed bag. Duran would practice the head slipping motion by keeping the bag in rhythem by hitting the bag with his head. He could do this as fast as fighters could hit it with his hands. Strange, but like a lot of fighters he had his reasons for doing things.

Heh, this was a long winded post, huh. I figure that this might be interesting to someone.

[Ron Lipton]

That was a wonderful and very thought out post, and much appreciated.

Everything you are saying makes sense to me and I have used it all in my training. I never saw that picture of Charlie and the Rock, but few guys can say they trained with Charlie, I did.

He was training Rubin Carter for awhile and they had a falling out over all things, training to music. Charlie did not like it and Carter did. I had tremendous respect for him as a man who had many fights. He was tiny and very experienced. Carter later opted for Jimmy Wilde and he liked him the best.(Not the flyweight champ of yore, or course.)

I saw Duran do what you said with his head on the speed bag too.

Great stuff and thanks again, very good!!!!

[gregbeyer]

i never saw them in the gyms in the 60's or early 70's. later i saw them some where and did not know how to find them so i took some gardening gloves to my mother in law who was a seamstress and had her (on a boat sail sewing machine) attach them to a few peices of canvas which we later stuffed with rags and torn up sponge. my brother in law could sock bigtime with his right.

we used those gloves as i trained the kid to make us a million bucks. well, that was the plan, but i did learn that you can make a flea seem like marciano by the way you catch the shots. my brother in law was no flea when punching those mitts between smokes and beers but i am still amazed when i go to these casino shows where the fighters hit the mitts prior to their bouts. if they landed like that, all fights would be very short.

as it goes to mitts, i think the catcher always makes the show. when the fight starts it is not so easy and the range not so contrived.

greg

[Chris Nagel]

Yeah, it doesn't take a whole lot to make a fighter look good on the mitts. I think for the most part that it's the trainer's responsibility when using the mitts to make it a real training session rather than an exhibition. I think it just goes over the head of most trainers, as they'd have their fighters play "Patty-cake, paddy-cake" right up to the warm-up before the fight.

Some trainers are doing right though. For instance, even though it looks like Roger Mayweather is just polishing Floyd's gloves with the mitts, he's also reinforcing the proper responses that he brings to the fights.

Some have taken it a step further as is case with Bernard Hopkins and his trainer. Besides practicing counters, and defense they also incorporate clinching. The question one might ask is how close to actual fighting? It might make a trainer feel like their doing a good job by telling a fighter jab, jab, and shouting out numbers, but what does the fighter walk away with?

Just like any other misunderstood training tool I believe that it has a lot of potential, yet a lot of trainers leave much to be desired.

[Chris Nagel]

P.S. I heard from a friend that Roger Mayweather did a segment for Ringside's how-to videos.

I never saw got to see him aside from the couple training-clips with Floyd jr. I'm interesting in hearing from anyone about Roger's work on the mitts

[Ron Lipton]

I saw the video and he is pretty damn good as is Ken Adams. They have other trainers on there working with male and female fighters and it serves its purpose.

Elevating the mitt drills to what you suggest makes a whole lot of sense and I know exactly what you mean.

Ron

[walshb]

Hello Ron, I'd like to ask your opinion and advive on the catch weight
system in boxing. I have been seeing recently several fights where
one guy weighs in on the weight and the oher a few lbs over, and the fight
goes ahead. It happened only the other night when Ireland's Andy Lee
fought Brian Vera from Texas. Vera weighed in at 162lbs and Lee 158LBS.
The bout was billed as a middleweight fight. IMO, this practice should be
outlawed as it is quite dangerous. What's the procedure on this Ron and what's your opinion?

THANKS

[Ron Lipton]

Hello Ron, I'd like to ask your opinion and advive on the catch weight
system in boxing. I have been seeing recently several fights where
one guy weighs in on the weight and the oher a few lbs over, and the fight
goes ahead. It happened only the other night when Ireland's Andy Lee
fought Brian Vera from Texas. Vera weighed in at 162lbs and Lee 158LBS.
The bout was billed as a middleweight fight. IMO, this practice should be
outlawed as it is quite dangerous. What's the procedure on this Ron and what's your opinion?

THANKS

Hi buddy and Happy Easter to all.

The one catch weight fight I had personal experience with was between Emile Griffith and Rubin Carter. I was one of his sparring partners for that bout aat 144 lbs, along with Heavyweight Clay Thomas, Lt HeavyWild Bill Hardney, and Jay McCombs a lightning fast featherweight.

Emile the reigning 147lb champ wanted a nice pay day for Christmas and he had handled middleweights with no problem, but soaking wet with a rock in each hand he was a 150lb guy really. Carter walked around all the time at under 160lb. They made Rubin sign a 155 lb contract so they could meet at that catch weight without the title at stake for the annual Dapper Dan Charity event in Pittsburgh. Rubin made the weight easily but ate correctly, ran correctly and boxed hard for that fight, and at that time he was really dangerous. So did Griffith who was always in shape. Carter knocked him down twice, not 3 times as written wrong all the time, and he was finished, all with a body shot that set it up, with a finishing left hook and flurry.

Having a catch weight fight is ok and makes for good matches beween two great boxing stars who meet mid way with a weight that is acceptable.

The problem that hit me in the face when I first started competing as an amateur who knew nothing about dehydrating or even the need for it as I walked around without an ounce of fat on me anywhere ever, was the size advantage it gave to the guys who were into this. Just a tremendous unfair advantage.

When I lined up in the cattle call, packed to the rafters NJ Golden Gloves registration, and watched them weigh in guys, and then at the actual fights weigh them in again with all the crooked bullshit shenanigans imaginable at the scale, I could see the unfair advantages taking shape.

They allowed 3-4 lbs over the limit in those days for the lighter weights and more at light heavy and middle, but if the A.A.U.(Amateur Athletic Union) liked a guy and he fought for them whenever they asked for one night shows, which I did whenever Joe Lavista, the Chairman called me, they would be lax at those weigh ins and let their favorites get away with murder. I never gained more than a pound or two and my pre fight meal was always the same. I lived in that gym and had almost no social life, so I was always at a good weight.

The worst I saw was at welterweight. I boxed with a guy who was a good friend, and at that time this lefty trained with me out of the Bloomfield NJ P.A.L. under Sam Larada, a cop. We also trained at the Ringside Gym owned by Sam Magee, frequented by Tony Galento. Also in Newark at Mooksie's, and the Atlas gym in Patterson, and some NY gyms too traveling all around from Florida to D.C. to box.

This welterweight southpaw named Don, fought in the 147 Open, weighed over 170lbs. At fight time he had to be 160 +lbs and they still let him fight at welter. I was at his weigh in and saw that bar lock at 147, lock at 154 and they just stopped and let him fight. He destroyed the other guy who was a little welterweight.

With gloves on a heavier guy, a much heavier guy has a big advantage. Remember what the fight looked like between Sanders and Czyz. That kind of size difference crushed Bobby who was not a puncher ever and he beat him like a child vs a man. That was height and weight and he was through anyway.

As to men of similar height and weight where one keeps within 6lbs of the contracted weight after the weigh in at the correct weight, and the other is over the top, it provides a tremendous advantage and looks it in the ring.
I am tallking about two in shape guys who are still ripped but one is a lightweight or jr welter and the other is a jr middle by fight time. It should not be allowed.


What they do today allowing a 10-16 pound gain or more after a weigh in is nothing short of insane and ruins boxing for me. Anyone that knows me and my training methods knows that I try to bring a street fighting mentality into it for my fighters, meaning that you know with your bare knuckles with a great punch in either fist, with speed and skill, you can Jack Dempsey a bigger heavier man into a knockout by blasting the shit out of him over and over if you put your body into condition to do just that.

To come in wild with your head up like Kats did later in the fight or like Hatton is careless and costly. I'm talking about real confidence in your punching power which enables you to hurt the other guy all the time even if he is known for taking a punch.

If he has a face with no brains inside, looks like a mule with a head of concrete, fine, blast the shit out of his shoulders, breast bone, arms, eyes and anything else you can hit. But if the guy outweighs you at fight time by 16 lbs someone has got to put a stop to this practice of massive weight gains allowed.

The speed and delivery is akin to the style of the guy Brian Kenny just had on his ESPN Friday night fights show, one of the two fighting brothers, his name eludes me at this moment. Everything, fast, ripping and hard.

I get a lot of power from my hands and forearms and muscular strength into my punches to negate any weight advantage, others cannot do this as they should, they are muscular but are trapped at their own weight and cannot generate the power or maintain it with a heavier guy. That is why you hear boxing guys saying, he hit hard as a lightweight for example, but now he has to fight welters.

Well, with this unfair weight gain allowed, with either a fixed weigh in or a legal one that allows a 16 lb gain, that is what you have, an unfair advantage and a fight being billed at one weight for a title and fought so far over the limit it is total bullshit. This has been going on forever.
The game is, BE THE BIGGEST YOU CAN BE AT YOUR WEIGHT. So they barely make the weight and then rehydrate to a bizzare new weight division.

You then have a Joey Gamache weighing 140 getting blasted out by a 60 pounder like Gatti or even heavier, with a criminal like the former executive director who was involved in a Federal Kidnapping case allowing it to happen.

After the weigh in on the same morning of the fight, not the day before, another weigh in should be held. No more than 6-8 lbs should be allowed.
If they fighter doesn't like it, go fight in the next division and lets end this insane practice of beating up guys a divison lighter than you.

Catch weight contracts are a fair idea to bring good matches to the public so we can see a fair fight within reason, if another massive weight gain is prohibited after the weigh in.

The weights of Marquez and Pacman at fight time was a surprise to me.
Two welterweights fighting for a jr lightweight title? That is just crazy.

When you can really punch with devastaing and jarring knockout power, especially if you have been knocking big guys out all the time, someone within 20 lbs of you challenging you makes you smile with hunger for a new scalp for the TP. The thing that can ruin your power is the wrong boxing glove that doesn't fit inside.

With the right glove, it is just beautiful.

[Ron Lipton]

PS When I train a fighter and we spend time together I try to walk the walk too for them, by going with them to the park to run, now I have to walk a bit, but I eat together and make sure I keep my weight right also.

One guy I have tremendous respect for is Rocky Alkazoff who has not smoked, drank booze, eaten red meat or even chicken or fish since he was a kid. He is strong as an ox, the son of a bitch has all his hair, and he can swing a sledgehammer like John Henry. He eats vegatables, fruit, egg whites I believe and lives clean.

I am trying to cut out animal products too and stick with my Jack Lalane juicer, egg whites, fruit, vegtables and anything that they say can cause protstate problems in us older gents, like too much red meat and dairy.

My weight is still 158 the same as my basic fighting days but with a lot more aches and pains to keep it that way. Getting older sucks.

[Chris Nagel]

Do you take any supplements for your joints?

[Ron Lipton]

I take calcium, with vitamin D and magnesium and when I had some ligament problems I took chodroitin.

Now I am trying to avoid taking any supplements other than Ester C, CoQ10, selenium, B complex and zinc. Vit E with gamma is good.

Cleaning out in the meantime for checkups and when you have blood tests done, anything that thins the blood is out for awhile, like fish oil, vit E, aspirin etc.

[Chris Nagel]

Good luck with that.

Anyways, I was reading before about how before Galento showed you his hook, you were blasting a heavyweight all over the ring, and I couldn't help but remember another story about size differences in sparring.

In the gym one day, a middleweight was doing some light sparring before his fight. So a trainer comes along and asks if his Light Heavyweight could move a few rounds with the middleweight. Just before they started the Light Heavy's trainer told his guy to go in there and make a name for himself. He comes in there throwing bombs, and the middleweight simply blocks and slips the big man's punches. After a 30 seconds of this, the middleweight went into high gear and preceded to beat the ever-loving dog shit out of him. It was painful to watch, but there was a hard learned lesson to be taken from this. Think before you act, especially when getting in the ring with Mike McCallum.

[walshb]

Thanks Ron for the effort put into your
reply. Very insightful and I'm on the same page as yourself...

What irritates me is where one guy is above a weight and the other below...

If both are say above welter and below middle, well that's completely legal
and proper. Say one guy is 153 and the other is 159. It seems unfair, but both are legitimate middles. One is just a lighter weighing middle. However, when one is 156 and the other 162, this is completely wrong and I have been seeing it happen too much.....

Thanks again Ron and happy holidays to
you.....

[Ron Lipton]

Good luck with that.

Anyways, I was reading before about how before Galento showed you his hook, you were blasting a heavyweight all over the ring, and I couldn't help but remember another story about size differences in sparring.

Reply: That probably was lightheavy Sugar Ryan, with a back like Mr.Olympia and wide looping shots, which if landed would lay you out, I got off my shots inside his and at least a second before him all the time. I was always able to do well with much bigger guys as I was blessed with speed and strength. The guy who gave me fits was Carlos Ortiz, in Chatham NJ at Ehsan's (Formerly Madam Bey's) and one day in Miami two rounds with Luis Rodriquez, where I could barely touch him in any vulnerable place with anything of power.

In the gym one day, a middleweight was doing some light sparring before his fight. So a trainer comes along and asks if his Light Heavyweight could move a few rounds with the middleweight. Just before they started the Light Heavy's trainer told his guy to go in there and make a name for himself. He comes in there throwing bombs, and the middleweight simply blocks and slips the big man's punches. After a 30 seconds of this, the middleweight went into high gear and preceded to beat the ever-loving dog shit out of him. It was painful to watch, but there was a hard learned lesson to be taken from this. Think before you act, especially when getting in the ring with Mike McCallum.

Reply: Understood. No one messes with the body snatcher unless you have a pod from outer space.

[Chris Nagel]

"When you can really punch with devastaing and jarring knockout power, especially if you have been knocking big guys out all the time, someone within 20 lbs of you challenging you makes you smile with hunger for a new scalp for the TP. The thing that can ruin your power is the wrong boxing glove that doesn't fit inside."

By the did way, did anything materialize with that "complete fist" glove idea that you talked about before?

Right now I'm pretty annoyed at the kind of commercial gloves that are being produced these days. I feel that one of the most important ways to protect your hands is to be able to make a good solid fist, however that wonderful innovation called a foam claw defeats that purpose. It's a shame because gloves like everlast used to be a fighter's best friend. You'd almost be better off hitting the bag barefisted than with most of the gloves out there.

My other gripe is the current attached thumb design which hinders you from putting your thumb where it's safer. I don't know how many times that my thumb would take some of the impact when I'd hit the heavy bag.

I'd just do the best that I could do with a super hand wrapping job, and some 1/4" thick el cheapo bag gloves that doesn't get in the way of making a proper fist. Recently I had gotten a pair of made-in-mexico, 8 oz Cleto Reyes which allow me to curl my fingers to my satisfaction. It came with the attached thumb, but being a little wiser I just cut that part. It's not perfect, and gloves by that brand aren't cheap but it's better than most of the gloves on the market.

On another note, I've given my punching bag an overhall and replaced the stuffing with a nice, not-to-soft, not-too-hard filler. I hear that some guys learned the hard way, such was the case with Larry Holmes and even the hard hitting Mike Tyson whom switched to lighter and softer bags. When your fists are the tools of your trade, it's your responsibility to keep them from breaking down. I find that good punching technique, good hand wrapping, nice gloves, grip training, and a punching bag that treats your hands right is the best way to be able to keep punching. Besides being able to punch longer, this will enable a fighter to punch harder. Of course, you already know that.

By the way, thanks for putting up with my persistence here. I really enjoy your feed back, great stuff.

[Chris Nagel]

PS. I was just thinking about how the wrong glove can ruin a fighter. Say, unless you're hot stuff and can set some of the conditions for the fight, aren't you at the mercy at what what the Promoter hands out.

[Ron Lipton]

"When you can really punch with devastaing and jarring knockout power, especially if you have been knocking big guys out all the time, someone within 20 lbs of you challenging you makes you smile with hunger for a new scalp for the TP. The thing that can ruin your power is the wrong boxing glove that doesn't fit inside."

By the did way, did anything materialize with that "complete fist" glove idea that you talked about before?

Reply: It was my son Brett's invention and he sent in the patten for the idea.

Right now I'm pretty annoyed at the kind of commercial gloves that are being produced these days. I feel that one of the most important ways to protect your hands is to be able to make a good solid fist, however that wonderful innovation called a foam claw defeats that purpose. It's a shame because gloves like everlast used to be a fighter's best friend. You'd almost be better off hitting the bag barefisted than with most of the gloves out there.

Reply: I agree, I have never found ONE I like.

My other gripe is the current attached thumb design which hinders you from putting your thumb where it's safer. I don't know how many times that my thumb would take some of the impact when I'd hit the heavy bag.

Reply: I know it does and someday hopefully me and my son can finally fix that forever.

I'd just do the best that I could do with a super hand wrapping job, and some 1/4" thick el cheapo bag gloves that doesn't get in the way of making a proper fist. Recently I had gotten a pair of made-in-mexico, 8 oz Cleto Reyes which allow me to curl my fingers to my satisfaction. It came with the attached thumb, but being a little wiser I just cut that part. It's not perfect, and gloves by that brand aren't cheap but it's better than most of the gloves on the market.

On another note, I've given my punching bag an overhall and replaced the stuffing with a nice, not-to-soft, not-too-hard filler. I hear that some guys learned the hard way, such was the case with Larry Holmes and even the hard hitting Mike Tyson whom switched to lighter and softer bags. When your fists are the tools of your trade, it's your responsibility to keep them from breaking down. I find that good punching technique, good hand wrapping, nice gloves, grip training, and a punching bag that treats your hands right is the best way to be able to keep punching. Besides being able to punch longer, this will enable a fighter to punch harder. Of course, you already know that.

Reply: All too well I know it from many hand injuries, I am lucky though my hand and fist is like an animals. My cousin Dr. Mitchell Lipton from Scotsdale-Phoenix Arizona operated on Holmes' hand long ago, said it was the strongest hand he ever saw. Strongest ones I ever shook or saw in person was Dempsey, Louis, Braddock, Hurricane Carter and Rocky Marciano. Believe it or not Carter's hands were bigger than all of them. Dempsey and the Rock's hands were like cast iron.

By the way, thanks for putting up with my persistence here. I really enjoy your feed back, great stuff.

Reply: And I enjoy talking with such a knowledgable fight fan as you Sir.
It is my pleasure.

[Juan C Ayllon]

Here are some photos of Ron. He wrote the following about them:

These photos are of me at age 61 taken in Aug 2007. I have tried to
stay at the same weight since my fighting days and it has worked.

The 4 darker shots are from Aug 2007 age 61, the one ab shot is age 38
or so.

thanks,

Ron

[Chris Nagel]

Thanks for posting these. Ron looks like he could pose for a bowflex commercial. He still has a horseshoe for a tricep.

[doomeddisciple]

Holy crap Ron -You're a freakin' unit! That is a good thing in Aussie slang.

You should have been Sylvester Stallone's adviser/trainer on Rambo IV and saved him all the unpleasantness he had when he came down here to promote the movie and they found human growth hormones on his plane that are banned in Australia.

Anytime someone tells me Sly looks good for 60 I will be sending them this link!

[Ron Lipton]

Holy crap Ron -You're a freakin' unit! That is a good thing in Aussie slang.

You should have been Sylvester Stallone's adviser/trainer on Rambo IV and saved him all the unpleasantness he had when he came down here to promote the movie and they found human growth hormones on his plane that are banned in Australia.

Anytime someone tells me Sly looks good for 60 I will be sending them this link!

Reply: Thanks mate,
I met him once in Coconut Grove Florida, while I was choreographing a boxing play. I saw him in a restaurant called Fudruckers. He was with his bodyguard, a nice guy named Gary Compton. When I saw the Sly one up close, I was with a pro bodybuilder from the local gym they let us use, who was helping me train the actor playing Ali.

The bodybuilder said that he could see the benefit of Stallone having a lot of dough. You could see that he trains hard to be sure, but it helps to have hair transplants, facial surgury which you could see up close, and it looked like a bit of a chemical boost for that quality muscle appearance. The guys in the know, know. I understand he had his health problems from using that stuff over the years, who knows?

I never tried anything other than carrot juice. No matter how hard you train, or should I say wisely, age will slow you down and it is best to stick with moderate strength training, hi reps, lower weight, and flexibility or you will pay the price.