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Thanks Ron. I agree on both counts. Oscar has the strength, power, awkwardness, iron chin and complete absence of fear to give Foreman hell. But one must favor GF. Oscar always seemed to FIND a way to lose fights he should have won.Originally Posted by Ron Lipton
Hi Ron, have you seen this latest about Rubin Carter? I know you and him go along way back. So I’m a bid sorry to say that this video makes me wanna throw up. What I see is a triple murder that was falsely set free making a hell of a good living out of his crime. And the most irritating part is that this Australian broadcaster is shamelessly repeating Carters innocent claim. Like as if there is no controversy. Don’t the Australians have internet over there?
Rubin 'Hurricane' Carter in Australia: guess why? White legalism's never-ending travesty of justice!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQhoJbzkwLg
Regards Theo
Last edited by Theo Netherland; 03-16-2010 at 02:15 PM.
What you saw in this video is beyond lying. That's why I have some criticism to you Ron. And that goes just aswell for Ali Bob Dylan and others who have helped in Carters release. We discussed this before and I know it’s a sensitive subject to you so I didn’t want to bother you with it anymore. Untill this video showed up. It changed my mind.
You Ali Bob Dylan and others made this a public case. That’s my point. It gives you a certain responsibly. If the matter in the seventies was that justice should be served then it should be now just the same. Keeping quiet makes one a accomplice of injustice. I think it was in 1975 that I first heard about this. Here in small Holland! So you guys made all over the world a deep impact! As far as I could I always kept following the case until the bomb on internet exploded.
Of course you all did it because you felt Carter was innocent. So you were doing the right thing. But now we know more then than. If you take a rational look at the facts Carter is not the innocent he says he is. And you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to make such conclusion.
Today Bob Dylan says nothing. I’m sure he must have heard of and have seen Cal Deals website. But he keeps quiet. Unlike in the seventies when he was on Carters side. To get him out of prison. And now there’s a big controversy around the case he says nothing. No interviews. Like as if his opinion only mattered than. From a moral point of view this is very wrong. Even today as you can see in the video Bob Dylan and his song Hurricane are being used to support Carters case. And Bob says nothing. He silently agrees. Please correct me if I'm wrong...
Was an innocent man imprisoned or is a triple murder set free? What's Bob's opinion? Today there are very strong arguments for the latter. So my feeling is that the people who once thought it was their duty to let the world know should speak out now just the same. At least they could give their opinion about the ‘new’ information. Ron you wrote somewhere on this thread that the 'new' information about Cater was very disturbing to you. Basically the 'new' information was there all along. Even without Cal Deal it was there. It just was denied rejected or belittled.
Ron I hope I’ didn’t offend you. If Ali was healthy I would mail and ask him the same. This vid made me really throw up. Really! I’m disgusted that there’s so much injustice sold as justice and visa versa. And the public is buying it. And the guy gets away with it. Gets praised and applause for it. Every time! Brr
Regards Theo
Last edited by Theo Netherland; 03-16-2010 at 07:00 PM.
Stay well Theo,
Ron
The hostess lost me with her opening line "His conviction was purely racist." I agree with Ron about the hat as well. Somebody tell Nicolai Valuev it's been located.
LOL
Who am I kidding. On Valuev that hat would probably still look like a yamaka.
Hi Ron.
That was an unlucky line of mine. I meant all of a sudden there was a whole lot of information available, it exploded, because of internet. Before this you could only sporadically hear Carters side of the story.
In the seventies he was part of a team that tried to mobilise as much people as they could to support Carter. In my life I have only bought one Bob Dylan record and that’s Desire because of Hurricane. The way I see it now the lyrics of Hurricane are beyond the poetic freedom of the author. They are manipulative, facts are denied, made up, or distorted in a way to get Carter the sympathy of the listener. Dylan must have known very soon that there was something wrong here. According to Deal’s website he hasn’t played Hurricane live since 1975. As far as I know without any explanation. He stopped playing it after Carter made the news that he beat a woman, I believe Kelly was her name, into the hospital. At the same time Muhammad Ali also turned his back on him.
What should Dylan say? Well looking at the facts, with the knowledge of today, one may conclude that because of Dylan a triple murder is set free. I would ask him if he thinks that, because of his actions, justice has been served. And if so, then he should be able to refute many of the accusations you can find on Deal’s website. And if he can’t refute them, why does he still think Carter is innocent?
Yes.
Can you give an example of some of the things you don’t agree on? At this moment I haven’t seen anybody that is critical to, or refuting anything of what is said at Cal Deal’s website. No one goes against it. Not even Carter. If I was unjustfully incarnated, set free because I’m innocent, then I would sue any person that came up with this. If your innocent this is murder of character.
What pisses me the most off of that video is that there’s not a single word of truth in it. I’m not even irritated that much by Carter himself, but more by the people who without any criticism give him this podium. These Australian journalists are rubbish. They are not doing their work. The least they could do is ask Carter about some questions that have been raised lately. Just give him the opportunity to set things straight. And also they should buy him a new hat!
Regards Theo
Last edited by Theo Netherland; 03-17-2010 at 08:53 AM.
best,
Ron
Well I can say one thing Ronnie. This discussion is making me more and more interested in your book. When does it come out?
I am working on it day by day, with many interruptions which is par for the course, and the literary interest from several publishers is there and I have to make a choice.
I thank you so much for your interest.
I know this for sure, no matter who you are, there will ALWAYS be friends and enemies to either support and help you or out of jealousy and hatred thwart you and nothing on earth can change the truth of what actually happened, so all that mattes is you do what you have to.
best,
Ron
Thanx for your answer Ron.
After the second world war there were many naziewarcrimals that got away with it. They escaped to all over the world. Very quick it was made up that their search should never stop. So even if they never have got caught, they never had a moment of rest. They should always beware. This is still going on! I have a similar feeling with Carter. At least life shouldn’t be as easy for him as it is now.
I didn’t know Bob Dylan is sick. I wish him all the best!
I first heard about this in a documentary in 1975. I was fourteen. Later in the seventies there were some updates. I followed it as much as I could. Bought around 1977 Dylan’s Desire. Anyhow, great lyrics! And later when I started buying American boxing magazines once and a while I'd read the few lines that were spent on this case. So this subject was always a bit on my mind. When I discovered Cal Deals website I was really shocked. Saw right away his logics were sound. Most of the articles there I‘ve been reading multiple times.
Carter has become, as he wanted, a public figure. Still I cannot find any recent critical interviews. There are no journalists that give him a hard time. Life must be easy for Carter. He seems to be totally obsessed with his innocence project and only deals with questions about that. By showing up in programs like that in Australia he is challenging the world. He is saying ‘look at me you fools, catch me if you can’. He is constantly in the centre of attention while it would be smarter in his controversial case to keep a low profile. But he doesn’t. There is so much controversy around him, and he fuels it himself. So I think it’s time for himself to open up. Sets things straight! For his fans! Or else, someone must give him a hard time.
Regards Theo
Last edited by Theo Netherland; 03-18-2010 at 02:09 PM.
When the Federal Court via Judge Leo Sarokin overturned the conviction and ordered Carter released, the Passaic County Prosecutor's office did not retry the case and the indictments were dismissed forever.
Carter does not have to run, hide or worry about being caught as to an analogous situation you made of a "Nazi war criminal."
If a film surfaced of the Lafayette Bar and Grill slayings showing him and Artis committing the killings he would be charged today with new evidence for example. If a taped phone call existed where he admitted the killings that would be new evidence.
Other than that, it is between him and God and spending 19 years and 7 months in jail and prison is not getting off easy, nor is losing the sight in your eye, your family and your health.
However you are making the point that all of that it is better off than the dead people are because you believe he is guilty. He will soon be 74 years old and we all have to answer for everything in our lives, you, him, me and everyone else.
In that perspective, there is no escape from anything, just like in the movie "Unforgiven," Clint Eastwood's character of William Munney said, "We all got it coming."
Hello Mr Lipton
Hope you are keeping well. I have a slightly different question for you if you don't mind,
Here in the UK there has always been a healthy 'underground' Boxing scene. Call them smokers. unlicensed, pirate shows, white collar etc we all know they go on outside the sanctioning of the BBBofC and in the cases of bare knuckle fights outside the law in general. This scene had a bit of a hey-day in the late 1970's with the likes of Roy Shaw, Lenny Mclean, Harry Starbuck etc a scene where a young Frank Warren started out promoting.
It still goes on today only recently Butterbean fought here on an unlicensed bill and got Ko'd by former Heavyweight pro Mark Potter.
Often ex-pro's or even amateur (often under different names) take part but mostly it's just street fighters, doormen and wannabie hardmen.
Then there is the even more violent bare knuckle fights were often anything goes, often taking place in isolated warehouses of barns out in the country.
Well, my question is what are your opinions on the above in general, have you seen much of the same thing happening Stateside? I know Ron Stander dabbled in the scene and heard rumours a 'retired' Leon Spinks as well.
Many thanks.
Hi Ron
Don’t misunderstand me, I know he won’t go back to prison. I see it like the OJ Simpson case. The judges ruled him innocent but for too many people he is guilty like hell. So he became an outcast. No more parties for OJ. Many of his friends left him. Carter on the other hand only seems to make friends. And he is the one that left his friends instead of visa versa. Yes he must be a very talented person. He can sell anything. Even the biggest nonsense. He may have potential to be a sect leader!
When OJ Simpson was let go the family of Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman filed a civil trail or whatever you call it. Can’t the relatives of the triple murder victims do the same? This a question that I wanted to ask a long time!
Seeing him in Australia really pisses me off. But who am I? I’m just a vup, a very unimportant person, where no one listens to. But there are others, like the relative of the victims. How do they respond when they see this? Over the dead bodies of their beloved ones this guy makes 20.000 dollar per speech. At least that what I’d read. They can make a whole lotta noise. Get media attention if they want to.
I’m an atheist so I won’t bet on the hereafter. Want action today! I believe I know so much about Carter by now that I’m sure he will get at least a hundred years. In good health! He will outlive us all! In the end he will be one of the most honoured and decorated Americans ever. There will be streets named after him. New discovered planets will get his name. His face will be on a dollar bill.
Yes I believe he did it. But, correct me if I’m wrong, as far as I know it has never been proven Carter fired the shots. One of his buddies may have dun it just aswell. He was convicted on circumstantial evidence. The reason I nevertheless think he’s guilty is because his story is cocooned in lies. As good as all the arguments that he uses, that are to his advantages, are checkable untruths.
Regards Theo.
Last edited by Theo Netherland; 03-18-2010 at 06:07 PM.
R, Much too dangerous and the potential for serious injury is high. After a lifetime in pro boxing, street fights, Judo matches, wrestling, amateur boxing,
bar brawls as a bouncer, it has to be supervised and done right otherwise people will die or be crippled for life.
Must have professionals handling everything, and you know what even when they do fighters die anyway. Has to be done the best way possible to protect these brave fighters. Things get out of control too fast.
From one V.U.P. to another,
the whole case is a source of great pain to many, me too.
R.
Hi Ron,
I am not sure if you have also judged boxing matches; but what do you make of the fact
that the judges "seem" to be positioned at ringside and have to look up at the action during a bout. They appear to be lower down than the floor of the ring. Is this the case? This seems to me not to be the best position to clearly see the action and judge the quality. Any thoughts? The ropes too can hinder their view.
Thanks
R. Hi buddy,
Yes, I have judged a title fight and my son Brett also judged 6 pro bouts and did a great job too. You make good points and I agree, there are just so many places you can put them close to the action and the higher chair they give them is the best the Comm can come up with without blocking the audience, and everyone else who has an agenda including the photographers who have actually yelled at me while refereeing to get out of "Their" way. LOL.
Thanks Ron. I just always felt that of all the people in attendance, the judges should be the ones best able to see the action as clear as possible, and at times, when you see them with the neck strained look from having to look upwards, it appears to be less than ideal.
Oke Ron, thanks! Lets leave the Carter subject and go back to boxing. You mentioned Gil Clancy. He became George Foreman’s trainer after he had lost to Ali. I have a question about that. Can’t ask it Clancy himself but maybe you can. I’d read Clancy softened George’s style a bid. Made him a bid less aggressive so that something like in Kinshasa, running out of gas, wouldn’t happen again. Still this make me wonder why. Should you change a so highly effective style because of only one loss? How good you are there always be someone you’re not able to deal with. If this someone shows up once per forty fights that’s no reason for a change I would say. In this case it wasn’t just someone but it was Ali. Also take in consideration Foreman was not even in his prime yet. What are your thoughts about this Ron?
Regards Theo
Last edited by Theo Netherland; 03-20-2010 at 10:01 AM.
R. Foreman had some strange relationships with various trainers. As to the idea that "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," yes of course that has merit.
George was a successful concussion puncher whose wrecking balls did the job on Boone Kirkman, Norton, Frazier, and busted up iron chinned Chuvalo while having great difficulty with thin and non powerful Gregorio Peralta and of course shooting his load against Ali and getting served.
When Jimmy Young did his usual frustrating job on George like he did to Lyle twice, exhausted Foreman had his epiphany with God in the dressing room afterward, while vomiting strange bile, hallucinating and running naked into the arena with Gil in tow.
Gil did a wonderful job with Emile Griffith and had a very symbiotic relationship with the then management of MSG and the gym we all trained in, the Solar gym 28th street bath house in NYC had many Garden main eventers there, all with Gil getting them fights and hat designer Howie Albert becomeing a "Boxing man," after Gil let him be in the corner.
Gil said in a published interview that he had about 5 bouts in the Navy as a middleweight, then went on to college to get a degree and teach in High School. He then ran the Dept of Parks gym mentioned.
Trying to make Foreman box more would be like teaching a Grizzly bear how to ride a unicycle in the circus. Foreman then opted for Angelo Dundee a great cornerman to have with him in a major fight where the advice given to George on TV picked up by the cameras by Angelo was, "Just keep Boppin."
It was like Regan saying, "Tear that wall down," and of course Regan was immortalized just for saying that original idea no one ever conceived of before.
So, "Box more, don't load up, don't look for the KO, it will come, keep boppin,"
are all poignant comments from the Mount, to give 1/3 of your purse or 10% of your purse for, but George would not listen to well, the only guy he ever listened to, but would yell at too, was Charlie Shipes who really taught him to fight.
If I had to have window dressing in my corner, I would want a stocking model in a garter belt, and for fighting inspiration Dick Tiger and Tony Zale.
I would do the fighting and keep my money.
Thanks for your answer!
You are most welcome, and I would add if George had kept his hands up instead of literally down around his waist after he threw each punch in the Lyle fight, he would have been hit a lot less in return.
I am sure Gil told him what to do, but the word was he does not listen and does things totally his way. Even when you have a guy who is a successful boxer or a thunderous puncher who has a great winning streak, there is always something to fine tune and adjust depending upon who you are fighting so that winning record stays in tact.
Those who try to change it all are making a mistake as you suggested, but to add to the arsenal and repertoire is always wise to meld it to the battle directly ahead.
Ron you said Foreman didn’t listen very well to his trainers. Neither did Ali I believe. It’s probably the reason why Angelo Dundee could last a career. Still these are two of the most successful boxers ever. But, if you ever use them as an example, you implicitly advise not to listen to trainers. How about that?
Last edited by Theo Netherland; 03-21-2010 at 05:41 PM.
Ron what do you think of my idea that a fighter like Foreman has the rules of boxing against him? From this point of view I see him as the best heavyweight of all time! I’ll mention some of his great qualities.
First, in every fight he is the one going forward. And all of his opponents are going backward. Non of them wants the confrontation while boxing is all about confrontation. Ali, Young, Holyfield, whoever, they all had to avoid him and think of a strategy to win. Beating was not the word. Hardly no one stepped in the ring with they idea to beat Foreman. Or they didn’t want to lose, or they wanted to win. Only Ali beat Foreman. The way I see it, that was more the result of a lucky gamble then of wisdom. Ali just went through the eye of the needle. While I say this, believe me, Ali is my all time hero! To become my all time hero, you have to go through that eye!
Second, George has an iron chin like no champion before. His only KO loss, against Ali, was more because fatigue then chin.
And most important, I can’t think of any fighter that has the ability to regain the (real!) heavyweight title after 20 years. Only the most outstanding of the outstanding are able to do such thing. There must be above normal championqualities to beat the champion of 20 years later on. Foreman is the only one this far.
What’s your opinion Ron? I said that I believe that Foreman (and some others) has the rules of boxing against him. George Foreman’s problem is that boxing lacks a rule, like in judo and wrestling against passivity, against avoiding confrontation…
Regards Theo
Last edited by Theo Netherland; 03-21-2010 at 07:24 PM.
R. No I would never say do not listen to your trainer, BUT it depends why you have the trainer there. Ali and Foreman certainly did have that in common about being guys who were hard to tell what to do.
Angelo has made it public many times about how he survived in Ali's camp, easy flow, easy goes it, no controversy, and it paid off as he traveled the world with Ali and shared it all. Ali came to Angelo not the other way around and Ali always respected and loved him.
Ali came to see Angie when he had Willie Pastrano who I got to meet, and Ali really liked Willie. Archie Moore tried to tell Ali to sweep up in training camp and it was goodbye Mongoose.
Ali and Angie worked well together, Angie never had a glove on but was with the great Carmen Basilio and so many others in that corner, he was a precious commodity. Ray Leonard did not want to give him a 1/3 when the purses got big and boxing is boxing behind the scenes when it comes to the bucks.
George was a force and if he felt he needed something after being deflated by Ali well he went and got Angelo, can't beat em, join them. He had Clancy too as you said, but his thing was knocking you the fuck out and winging from the floor, not being told what to do.
It is hard for many prize fighters to have someone who never had any real fights telling them what to do, as a boxing expert. Cut man, corner man, cheerleader-motivator, physical fitness trainer, yeah, fight teacher for strategy and skill, you need the right man.
R. As said, Foreman was a force, could take a trimming from Lyle and still win, he took tremendous punishment in the Alex Stewart fight and did not quit either. I competed in Judo and have a black belt, giving way is the way in Judo, in boxing there are many styles and sometimes the rapier beats the bludgeon, other times the reverse is true, one thing for sure, anything and everything happens in that ring when they ring the bell.
Foreman V Lennox Lewis as written up by The Ring Magazine fantasy fight issue years ago had Lewis knocking out George. I don't think so, I think it goes the other way.
Ron, I remember reading that Clancy's main objective in training Foreman was to have him throw straighter punches. The words Gil use was 'The shortest distance to an object is travelled in a straight line." The other objective was to have him pace himself.
Whether or not George paid any attention though is a whole other matter although in fairness George looked very impressive under Gil for Frazier II, Dennis and Ledoux.
Ironically, pacing himself probably cost him vs. Jimmy Young. I always though George would have overwhelmed Jimmy and stopped him within seven if he had have fought more aggressively out of the gate.
R. I always felt the same way. Savagery overcomes skill and cute moxie, plain, pure and vicious savagery. It truly might have worked, it did for Shavers when he stopped Young.
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