Pbs - The History Dectectives On Dempsey-willard Bout

[mike]

Jack Kearns Jr. , A Legend In His Own Right, As Anyone Who Knows Him Well Can Attest To This, Will Examine The Dempsey- Willard Bout. He Will Dispell Any Rumors Of Any Loaded Gloves. It Never Happened. No Bolts, Cement, Guns, Knives Etc. There Is The Controversy As Far As Did Dempsey Get Accidentally Cheated Out Of A First Round Knockout That Dempsey Prediticed And Kearns Bet On !! He Was. And The Real Time Footage Shows This. Fact Is, The Dempsey- Willard Fight We All See Here Off Of You Tube-is Slowed To Accomidate 3 Minutes Of Fighting Since The Second Bell To The The Bell Ending Round One. Problem Is, It Should Have Been Left Alone. The Real Time Footage Shows That The Round Was Cut Short And From Film Analyis - 10 To 20 Seconds. Whether Kearns Actually Did Bet 10,000 Dollars On The First Round Ko, Will Never Be Known--for Certain. One Thing Is Certain Is That In The New York Times July3, 1919 --dempsey Was Interviewed '...unless Willard Is The Superman Claimed By His Supporters, I Will Knock Him Out In A Hurry. I Would Not Be Surprised To List Him With Fulton, Morris, And The Other One Rounders. He May Get It By The First, But If He Does He Only Framing Alot Of Trouble For Himself. Im Sure Ready To Go To Him. I Hope Its A Good Battle, No Matter How Short It Is.' From The New York Times July 4 ,1919 Dempsey-"i Told You I Would Knock Him Out In The First Round, And To All Intents And Purposes That Is What I Did." Willard--"its Hard To Admit Defeat, But Dempsey Is The Hardest Puncher I Ever Faced." Fact Is, Dempsey Was Cheated From His Prediction, And Kearns From Perhaps, A Huge Bet. The Bell Was Messed Up--and On Pbs July 9-estime--jack Kearns Jr. On The Dempsey- Willard Fight.

[mike]

the film of the dempsey- willard bout shown on you tube, was 10 to 20 seconds slow--too accommidate 3 minutes of fighting-but there was only 2;40 to 2;52 of fighting in the first round. the resetting of the canvas jammed the bell and it was later rung again--only the timekeeper never reset his watch.

[iskigoe]

Those timekeepers always messing Dempsey up. Im reading a great book call the "legendary Mizners". Its about the Mizner brothers in it there is a lot about Wilson Mizner and boxing. The book claims it was wilson how got Kearns started in boxing. It also says Wilson could have been a great boxer and spared with most heavy weights of his time. Im afraid to believe most of whats in the book Wilson was a great con-man and story teller.

[Sharkey]

There are pictures of Dempsey, in ring, pre-fight against Jess with his hands wrapped, sans gloves. No plaster, no bolts, knives, shrapnel, grenades.

[mike]

im not sure what its exactly about, i spoke to kearns a couple of weeks ago--but at least he is in the program. it may have something to do with the ring bell--just a guess--if the bell was the one used for the bout--ill call jackie again. as he told me and any local paper--his father made the whole thing up- ie loading of gloves- and everybody who knew his dad , knew he was pulling peoples legs. kearns jr. was quite the amatuer fighter , used to sparr with moore,maxim, and zale - extremely talented fighter- as well as man. a couple of years ago at the age of 72, a young pro heavyweight boxer got abit too wise with kearns and jackie beat his brains out. mr. kaplan knows all about the incredible kearns and are good friends. change topic--i find it quite interesting that dempsey predictated a one round ko over tough guy willard. the reson dempsey was ushered out of the ring by kearns, was kearns noticed that the timekeeper waving towards the ref. kearns told the ref- dempseys the new champ--and rushed dempsey the hell out of the ring. didnt work. anyhow--another legend- kearns jr. on pbs.

[HandToMouth]

glad to hear pbs is doing this special... should be very interesting... I hope they clean the film up like the nice job they did w/ the jack johnson special... what I also really hope they touch on, is as definitive as possible account of the true severity & extent of willard's injuries after the fight... a lot of ballyhoo has been thrown around in that regards also, although I've never heard definitive proof that dempsey indeed didnt break his jaw, cheek, ribs, nose, teeth & eardrum... even close to 90 years later it would seem there has to be documented account of people close to willard who can confirm the legitimacy of the injury claims.

[Roberto Aqui]

This program superficially examined the Ali legend a few years back, and got a few minor details wrong. Since the Dempsey controversy was laid to rest among boxing aficianados many moons back, they seem to be picking the low hanging fruit.

They should look into the Liston/Ali bouts, Liston death, and the King connection w/Ali if they want to look into boxing instead of blowing smoke up the Ali legend.

[mike]

hmm- i just noticed in the 1964 sports illustrated this--" my face was all broken , and my head was ,too. " look," he pointed to his left cheekbone at the temple. "put your hand over here. feel that bone moving around ? thats what them cement gloves did to me." apparently willard may have had a radial fracture from his cheekbone into his temple area. even grantland rice alluded to this the days following the fight. dempsey "i hope to god i die right now, and my wife and chidren if there is any truth in what kearns said."

[Dan1213]

glad to hear pbs is doing this special... should be very interesting... I hope they clean the film up like the nice job they did w/ the jack johnson special... what I also really hope they touch on, is as definitive as possible account of the true severity & extent of willard's injuries after the fight... a lot of ballyhoo has been thrown around in that regards also, although I've never heard definitive proof that dempsey indeed didnt break his jaw, cheek, ribs, nose, teeth & eardrum... even close to 90 years later it would seem there has to be documented account of people close to willard who can confirm the legitimacy of the injury claims.

Here are a couple of articles shortly after the fight. Not too much mentioned about any serious injuries. No memntion of lost teeth, broken cheekbone, etc. I will keep digging.

July 4, 1919


July 7, 1919

[Dan1213]

Here is another article.

[rocky111]

Why doesnt PBS look into the Liston v Ali bouts. Kennedy is dead and so is Sam Gianconna, Joey Aieuppa, Malcolm X, Luther King and all the others except Ali. Sonny is gone too but he never gave a damm any how.

[silk degrees]

Can anybody shed any light on an air date for this, or are they in the process of filming, etc. Can someone here give some info as far as when we can expect to see this????

[mike]

dan--baloney. give johnston a call. there is a a famous photo of dempsey in a crouch, teeth bared, eyes hidden by a rope. willards cheekbone to his jaw was already severly swollen. this picture was taken just after the fifth kndown in the first round. there were any number of press covering this fight, and one report is carried out claiming willard got beaten up abit with some good bruises but was otherwise the picture of health-- this flyies in complete opposite of every other report of the fight and aftermath. fact is , willards cheekbone going into the temple was fractured. just give johnston a call --he interviewed and filmed willard. and also check out the famous photo from the first round--right in between the fifth and sixthe knockdown as far as willards swelling. if after a minute it looked like that--fairly clear and close up-- willards head must have been in one big ice pack until july 7.

[mike]

here is another one--ny tribune july 6--" and how this dempsey can hit. when he hit willard it was exactly the same as if some strong man had swung upon the ex- champion with a heavy hammer. he felt as if raw steel had broken through his skull. he fell before a man who must be able to hit harder than any man that ever lived." rice had been covering fights for 20 years before this and spoke to willard.--again dan- give jj a call.

[silk degrees]

Yo dudes, before we start calling each other name's, could someone offer some facts on an air date here?????

[mike]

above-monday on pbs at 9 pm est. as far as names-hell we know each other. i just believe the damage reports were known by many at the time--but have been lossed. simple. the x-rays or more detailed interviews with willard perhaps abit after the bout are in microfilm--but cant be found. i just find it abit too conicidental that willard interviewed by rice- and then rice giving what willard said in 1919 and then 45 years later having a reporter feel his temple area and both times willard specifically mentioning something in his head was damaged. dempsey said he knew the fight was won when " I saw willards cheekbone cave in." dempsey was not the braggart type --he never said tunney coudnt have gotten up, he hit sharkey when he wasnt looking, and he threw bones to sudenberg and others when he didnt have too and always said how some fighter or anyother wwas great and wouldve beaten him. i just dont see this fellow making this up after the horrendous beating he gave to the man--no need to. jj has films of willard close up and unless willard fell on his face in later years or got in some sort of car accident--willard might well have exaeratted some of the damage--but not to his cheekbone and related damage.however ,both dan and me want the evisdence--i say its there--but to hard to find--but circimstaticial eveidence is pretty high given that those who realley knew--are all dead.

[HandToMouth]

some of the photos in mention:

this first photo, right before the bell, clearly shows dempsey's hands taped & not plastered, nor having any metal embedded objects:



this one shows only the left side of willards face (not the side smashed by dempsey's left hook). interestingly, this side shows some bruising damage also on the cheekbone, but not of the bone breakage kind:



this photo clearly shows nasty damage to willards's right cheekbone & jaw. not sure what round this is, but the color and swelling point to broken bones:



this ones interesting b/c it shows dempsey's ability to pounce and extent out his punches beyond the norm for someone of his height:



a photo that really emphasizes the height difference between the two:



interesting photo of dempsey prematurally leaving the ring at the end of rd 1:



these were training ones taken right before the fight:

[HandToMouth]

test

[Roberto Aqui]

Willard already looks worse in a bout that was over by the 3rd than Arthur Abraham did when he got his jaw busted in 2 places by Miranda in a fight that went the 12 rd distance.

Like you noted, too many pics and not one that shows any cheating. Since the hands and gloves were checked by Willard's second before being laced up, that's the only possible chance that Dempsey could've been slipped something, that Willard was doublecrossed by one of his team. Yet the exit pics don't appear to show Dempsey clutching anything either.

As far as the writers go, well, reporters are not always good sources of information. They write what they will, but maybe they were trying to protect the reputation of boxing which was still banned in many states.

[mike]

my apologies to dan--hes trying like hell to get some good info on this, and i negated his efforts---michael

[don1234]

This part of the puzzle needs to be re-framed. "Why did the press NOT report the amount of obvious damage to Willard?" What was their motivation? Egg on their face for their pre-fight predictions? Sheilding boxing from the reformers looking for a brutal match to crusify? Anybody know?

[mike]

above could be--but its obvious to me that if rumors were circulating of willard diey or dead, one could only imagine what the fans and sports writers were chattering about--" why i saw willards ribs sticking out of him- yeah ,i saw his teeth fly out in the third--" etc etc. whatever never happened to willard and did happen came right out of the rumor mill in toledo. i think that in some cases for all the reasons above--some damage was possibly played down-- but dan found where it allllll started from. and in later years , willard definatly didnt help the case by exaurrating some of his injuries.

[mike]

Here is another article.

wel to finish the dead horse--after this article--i doubt anyone knows the true extent of the damage. had willard been killed--wed have the autopsy. given all the wild rumors in toledo not to mentioned willard saying"every time he hit me i could feel another bone or two break" the true extent will never be known--it would have to come from willard. i just watched the complete fight on 16mm- the closer version--and this is what i got from the film. i sincerely doubt willards nose was broken, nor any teeth knocked out. there was simply --no-- blood from those areas. in subsequent photos of willard --not one showed missing teeth. --this can be explained away--but on clear film--no blood from either source. i also doubt willard had a broken jaw--or in anyway severly-- nearly all of the swelling on the right side came down from the cheekbone area. had the jaw been fractured-- its a good bet - he would have been advised to have it set--very soon. ribs definatly could have been broken-- there were plenty of bruises around willards body and he took some incredible shots there--its not that hard to bust someones ribs. the cheekbone is a definate must. willard on july 4 or 5 - the headlines- from the nytimes---willard" in the first round when dempsey hit me with a left hook i tried hard to continue, but i was rapidly losing my strengh."... so forht and so on. for reasons given above i think dempsey broke willards cheekbone for the first knckdown. in the rest of the first round , dempsey repeady hit willard in the same area with both lefts and rights. by the end of the bout -- from willards ear to his nose-- there is ample evidence-- that this area was destryed from repeated hits. if one looks at most phtos of willard from before the dempsey bout, and then most after, willard realley did seem to have a lopsied effect since 1919. close up film footage baers this out. the loss of tearing is entirely possible , as some fragment from the cheekbone very well could have done this. i would not bet against it. to me , willards cheekbone assuredly was destroyed. probably a couple of ribs fractured. right ear - very possible. no broken nose or missing teeth and doubful any major fracture at all to his jaw. thats it from here.

[hawk5ins]

July 6th post fight article of the bout in the New York Times.

Source: New York Times Encyclopedia of Sports: Boxing (page 16).

“When Towels flashed through the air, Willard's face was a mass of blood. Dempsey was spattered on his breast and his back with blood of his opponent. Jess’s right eye was completely closed, there was a freely bleeding cut beneath his eye, his mouth was bleeding profusely, six teeth were out and the whole right side of his face was swollen to almost twice its normal size. Dempsey had not on mark.”

I dunno. Sounds to ME that there were reports of severe damage done to Willard face, immediately after the bout

Hawk

[mike]

well, wrong again--thanks for the info. now that is , for once at least, specific reporting from ringside from the times. anybody else got anything??? thanks

[HandToMouth]

below is a link & passage from an article on j johnson, willard & dempsey from 15rounds.com. the passages below give more info into the injury issue:

http://15rounds.com/Columns/mswann/021606.php

Three things come to mind when discussing the Jack Dempsey- Jess Willard fight on July 4th, 1919.

1] Dempsey’s sensational KO catapulted him to superstardom and million dollar gates in the roaring 20’s.

2] Willard was beaten brutally, the extent of the injuries varying depending on whose account you read.

3] Could Dempsey inflict that much damage without the help of “loaded gloves?”

At slightly over 6 feet, Dempsey entered the ring at 180 pounds, by his own account, and was a 5-4 underdog against the giant Willard. Promoter Tex Rickard reportedly told Dempsey in his dressing room to “Take my advice. If he hits you with a good shot and hurts you, go down and stay down before he kills you. I don’t want you killed.” Despite this account, Dempsey was quoted in Peter Heller’s “In This Corner” as saying that Rickard thought that Dempsey could beat Willard. Dempsey says in the book that, “He’d [Willard] been out for quite a while. I think he had been drinking quite a bit.”

Dempsey and Willard squared off in the 114 degree heat, and after a minute of feeling out his opponent, Dempsey landed a huge left and Willard went to the canvas. Willard was to go down seven times in all in that savage first round. He never had a chance after that left hand; the rules of 1919 didn’t require fighters to go to a neutral corner after a knockdown, and the relentless Dempsey continually stood over Willard to place him back on the canvas every time he attempted to rise. Knockdown #6 was clearly on the back of the head, an illegal blow seen clearly on the film.

Willard failed to rise after knockdown #7 and the ecstatic Dempsey corner entered a neutral corner to celebrate prematurely, unaware that the bell had “saved” Willard. Dempsey left the ring almost immediately and ran down the aisle on his way to the dressing room.

Dempsey’s manager, Jack “Doc” Kearns, who had placed a $10,000 wager at 10-1 odds on Dempsey to knock out Willard in the first round, suddenly had to reverse field and call Dempsey back into the ring.

Willard continued to take a beating in rounds two and three, although he did not go down again. Willard was unable to answer the bell for round four, finally ending the carnage.

The inventory of Willard’s injuries varies somewhat depending on the source. Ferdie Pacheco writes in his fine book, “The 12 Greatest Rounds of Boxing,” that Willard’s cheekbone was broken in 12 places , his jaw in 13 places, and had eight broken teeth, in addition to two fractured ribs. Pacheco concedes that “reports of his injuries varied, and the use of x-rays was primitive at the time, but any way you cut it, an enormous amount of damage was produced in a single round.” Other published reports also add a fractured eye socket and a broken nose.

However, Willard gave interviews following the fight, and is quoted liberally in the newspapers of the day, difficult to believe possible with a jaw broken in 13 places. Further, Jim Byrne, the official physician of the fight, has been described in reports as not a doctor at all, but a sort of message therapist of the day, “a rubber,” employed in a bathhouse according to an article by Monte D. Cox. According to Cox, Willard was never examined by a reputable physician after the fight, which probably adds to the confusion regarding the reporting of injuries.

Another point of controversy is the amount of time that Dempsey spent returning to the ring after round one. In researching this article, I could find no exact clocking of the time that it took for him to work his way back through the crowd, but it was obviously longer than the allotted minute between rounds. The miserly Willard was his own manager and trainer. If he had invested in professional corner men, Dempsey may have been disqualified if they had demanded that round two begin on time while Dempsey was still returning to the ring. Willard, despite having been beat to a pulp, may have retained his title on that basis. Further, the timekeeper had forgotten that he set his watch prior to the bell, and told the referee that the round was over before Willard could have been counted out.

Dempsey and Kearns had an acrimonious split after the Dempsey-Firpo fight in 1923. There were allegations by Dempsey that Kearns was misappropriating his finances, and there were lawsuits on both sides.

Willard and many boxing experts felt that it was impossible for a man to cause so much damage, whatever the full extent, with 5 oz. gloves. To further fuel the fire, Doc Kearns wrote his memoirs, “The Million Dollar Gate,” with the assistance of Oscar Fraley. Fraley also wrote “The Untouchables” with Elliot Ness, a book said more to create the myth of Ness as a crusading crime fighter than to provide an authentic account of the crime-ridden days of prohibition.

One chapter of Kearns’ book, “Dempsey’s Gloves Were Loaded,” was published in the January 13, 1964 issue of Sports Illustrated. Kearns claims in the article that he had packed Dempsey’s bandages with plaster of paris prior to the Willard fight. Kearns said that Dempsey had no knowledge of his action.

Dempsey hotly denied the story and brought suit for $3,000,000 in libel damages against Time Inc., the publisher of Sports Illustrated. He received an out of court settlement and an apology from Time.

Kearns, who died in 1963, had yet another story. Pacheco writes that he happened to be one of several sportswriters and boxing insiders who were privy to a showing of an 8 mm movie of the Dempsey-Willard fight, shown by Kearns. According to Ferdie’s account, at the end of round one, “The crowd surged forward to assist Willard. Dempsey was left alone. Neither his seconds nor Doc rushed to celebrate, as Dempsey walked to a neutral corner. Dempsey dropped his hand by his side, and out came an iron object that resembled a railroad spike… The film started again, and we saw a man, who had been seated by the ring, take off his hat and place it over the spike. The man paused, looked around, then reached under his hat. He picked up the hat and grabbed the spike, then put the spike in his pocket.”

Pacheco also writes that, “Evidence exists that a vengeful Jess Willard, unable to accept the devastation that Dempsey had wreaked upon him, did forge the film, with the help of his brother.”

The questions are endless. Were Dempsey’s gloves loaded? I’m not a physician or an expert on plaster of paris, but it would seem that Dempsey’s hands would be severely damaged with the plaster of paris inside of 5 oz. gloves. As for the tape viewed by Pacheco and others, I’m certainly not going to refute eye witness testimony by a man of his character. But this grainy film of 1919 is hardly high definition TV, and what appeared to be a spike could just as easily have been a cigar.

Reviewing my copy of the tape frame by frame shows no dark object appearing from Dempsey’s gloves, nor a man with a hat to pick it up. After the first knockdown Dempsey rests his right hand on the ring ropes, after the third his left is on the top strand. Where could the railroad spike have been hidden?

I would prefer to believe that Willard, who went to his death believing that no man could inflict such damage upon him without some nefarious tool to assist him, was simply mistaken. Quite possibly, the extent of his injuries were overstated, and Dempsey simply caught him with a world class left hook from which he was never able to recover, particularly with the Manassa Mauler standing over him , waiting to deliver more deadly shots.

Am I willing to state unequivocally that there was no chicanery involved? No, not hardly. Kearns, and Dempsey too for that matter, had more than their share of character flaws. Why did Kearns bet $10,000 of 1919 money on a first round knockout at 10-1 odds in the first place? How did Willard stay on his feet in the second and third rounds? Why did Dempsey race out of the ring like he had just robbed a 7-11 at what should have been the greatest moment of his career?

In any case, would a fighter with Willard’s record be considered for the Hall of Fame were it not for his participation in such high profile, controversial fights such as Johnson and Dempsey? Can greatness be bestowed simply by association? Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey are on virtually everyone’s list of top 10 heavyweights, while Willard is known only for his historic fights with the two greats. But all three men reside in the Hall of Fame, so it appears that, at least in Willard’s case, you can become great simply by fighting the best.

[iskigoe]

I am always confused by the fact that Dempsey is always made out to be such an underdog. Most pre-fight reports i have read have been reporters writing how they thought Dempsey was in the greatest shape and was the hardest hitter the had seen. Most thought Willard was to old with to long a lay off to have a chance? Maybe im reading the wrong articles.

Also the ring was surrounded by the greatest group of sportswriters in history.
They would not have missed an iron pipe being passed around. They were writers from the era of the dirtiest tricks and well trained to keep an eye out.

[Dan1213]

July 6th post fight article of the bout in the New York Times.

Source: New York Times Encyclopedia of Sports: Boxing (page 16).

“When Towels flashed through the air, Willard's face was a mass of blood. Dempsey was spattered on his breast and his back with blood of his opponent. Jess’s right eye was completely closed, there was a freely bleeding cut beneath his eye, his mouth was bleeding profusely, six teeth were out and the whole right side of his face was swollen to almost twice its normal size. Dempsey had not on mark.”

I dunno. Sounds to ME that there were reports of severe damage done to Willard face, immediately after the bout

Hawk

Good catch Hawk. This supports the physical evidence. The other reports I found suggest that Willard was trying to downplay his injuries, which is surprising in light of many who accused him (unjustifiably) of being a quitter for not coming out for the fourth round.

[Dan1213]

I am always confused by the fact that Dempsey is always made out to be such an underdog. Most pre-fight reports i have read have been reporters writing how they thought Dempsey was in the greatest shape and was the hardest hitter the had seen. Most thought Willard was to old with to long a lay off to have a chance? Maybe im reading the wrong articles.

Also the ring was surrounded by the greatest group of sportswriters in history.
They would not have missed an iron pipe being passed around. They were writers from the era of the dirtiest tricks and well trained to keep an eye out.

[hawk5ins]

THe Times article I quoted from earlier, concurs with the Odds you cite from the Toledo paper.

"The betting on the fight was light for a championship battle. Early this morning the odds were at even money. THen came the New York And other contingents with Willard coin and Willard again becmae the favorite. The prevailing odds when the men entered the ring were 5 to 4 Willard. It was estimated about $2 mill was wagered in all."

For those who don't have access to the New York TIme Encyclopedia of Sports Boxing book, I could not give it any higher of a recommendation then as to say that it is one of the 3 or 4 most valuable Boxing sources that I frequently rely on.

It is currently available at Amazon.com.

Trust me, it is worth the purchase.

Hawk

Boxing (The New York times encyclopedia of sports ; v. 7) (Unknown Binding)

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