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Biggest wastes of talent were Ike I. and Ricky Wombat ( I think this was his name/guy who lost to Holyfield as an amateur in the Olympic box offs) . Tony Ayala Jr. is in there. The of course Mike Tyson.... from Berbick to Spinks an all time great ... after that, no longer a fighter.
Over rated busts were Mark Breland and Howard Davis Jr.
Many more ...
How about John Tate? Haven't heard from him since he was decked like a sack of potatoes
That's because the dead have muted voices.Originally Posted by silk degrees
I would say Hector Camacho was a major wasted talent. The guy could have become a modern Willie Pep with some pop. Instead he became some sulfurous fizzle.
Guys:
There is not a doubt that the BIGGEST disapointment in the 3 century history of boxing is Ol' Leg-Iron Mike Tyson.
Considering what might have been ... Nobody else even comes close.
GorDoom
I think you are referring to Ricky Womack.
He spent many years in prison, made a comeback after his release and eventually killed himself.
Yes that's the guy ... what a terrible waste.
In the past many writers seem to have been dissapointed in Kid Griffo
Gor God bless you dude!!! There are guys on the board who still rate Tyson with the greats, and still put him in fantasy fights with ring greats. One thing about Tyson early in his career all of the Tyson fans forget is Jacobs and Cayton matched Tyson with light heavies early in his career, which created the one round knockouts. Gor one of my uncles used to box, and he would run into fighters from time to time, and invite them to his home to watch pay per view fights. One evening Mark Young showed up. I could'nt believe how small this guy was. he looked to me to be nothing more than a super middleweight just looking at him. I was just stunned at how small this guy was. Anyway, I could go on about Tyson, every guy who was not afraid of him defeated him, he never avenged the Holyfield losses, or Buster's loss. Yes Tyson fans, he belongs at the top of this list
Tyson's first ten 1st rd KOs
Career Weight Ranges/height
==============================
Mercedes 191-199
Singleton 198-208
Spain 184-222/ 6'2"
Canady 195-234
Johnson 172-210
Long 211-257/ 6'2"
Colay 212-257
Benjamin 194-227
Richardson 211-240/ 6'6"
Scaff 240-269/ 6'5"
I don't mind if you guys don't like Tyson, he ain't a likable guy. Let's not fib about him though.
COULD have turned into, from what I did see of Ricky Womack, I was not impressed.
Ricky was part of the DREADFUL undercard for the Hagler Hearns bout and he looked just plain AWFUL. He had nothing on his punches, mechanical, he had Kronk shorts on but looked like he should have given them back.
I was looking forward to seeing him fight as he was the guy Holyfield beat to make the Olympic team and that was Womack's hype.
But there was just nothing there.
Now I realize he was into all sorts of trouble and he may have been knee deep into them and thus he was already gone.
I just didn't see close to what I expected to with him and based on that, I'm not sure how much we truly missed.
Just one man's viewpoint.
Hawk
I wasn't "fibbing" about Tyson, he IS the most collossal waste of talent in the history of the sport.
GorDoom
I understand what you are saying. But I have never been comfortable giving the exscuse clause out to Mike in this manner.
MAYBE he could have established himself as the very best or maybe he maxed out his potential. We really don;t know.
Personally, I think the lost years for Ali, Louis and Dempsey potentially hurt how great THEY could have been viewed as well. And what if Johnson were allowed a shot at the crown BEFORE he was 30?
Injuries to Gerry Cooney in 1982 cost Larry Holmes an extra bout or 2 that year for him. ANd two failed negotiations for bouts with John Tate and Gerrie Coetzee nearly shelved Holmes for all of 1984. Holmes could concieably reached 49-0 or more before the Spinks bout had a few set backs NOT have happened.
Sugar Ray Leonard is a classic example of wasted years as well due to his eye.
Now there is NOTHING certain that says that during these lost years for the above fighters would have run the table. It seems possible and one could make the case that it is een likely.
But it is not certain.
10-8 pointed out that in Mike's best performance of his career, he was under Don King's thumb, he had Roper and Givens were in the picture. His relationship with Rooney was strained, The lawsuits with Cayton were going on. It was these types of exscuses that are used to give Tyson a get out of jail free card for poor performances. Yet under those very similar type of circumstances, he delivers his "Max Schmeling" moment. His Jess Willard Moment. His Cleveland WIlliams moment. The most impressive performance of Tyson's career.
After Rooney it was all bad supposedly. Well Richie Giachetti IMO was a better trainer than Rooney would ever dream of being. Snowell did show with Tim Austin, that he was pretty competent himself.
Maybe, just Maybe we SAW the best of Mike Tyson under any circumstances.
But if we ARE to give Tyson the benefit of the doubt of what he COULD have accomplished, I think he needs to stand in line with the rest of the greats who can make the same claims about the lost years and lost opportunities that they had to endure and overcome.
Hawk
Since nobody has attempted to quantify "the biggest waste of talent," I will attempt.
Tyson was considered by many to be the best fighter of all time, or at least the best heavy ever when he was upset by Douglas and charged w/rape a year later. He had been 10-0 in title bouts and undefeated in all bouts with spectacular KOs, all in 5 yrs time. Had he kept in training and out of jail for 5 more years, fighting 2x a year, he could have been 20-0 in title fights and retired w/record of 47-0 at age 28 in 1994.
As it turned out, he finishes 12-4 in title fights, and 50-6 final record w/ one NC.
Now, IBRO ranked him the 12th best heavy ever, so he does have some validation in the boxing community as having achieved something, but he's no longer considered the best ever.
So, the question is, what more did Tyson have to do before losing the label as the greatest waste of talent?
Certainly he was one of the greatest wastes of money there ever was, having blown $400 mil in career earnings, that part is inarguable and can be quantified.
I attributed this to 10-8:
10-8 pointed out that in Mike's best performance of his career, he was under Don King's thumb, he had Roper and Givens were in the picture. His relationship with Rooney was strained, The lawsuits with Cayton were going on. It was these types of exscuses that are used to give Tyson a get out of jail free card for poor performances. Yet under those very similar type of circumstances, he delivers his "Max Schmeling" moment. His Jess Willard Moment. His Cleveland WIlliams moment. The most impressive performance of Tyson's career.
Actually it was Hagler who made this comment in another thread.
My bad.
Hawk
I don't veiw that as Mike's best fight...Tyson was a terrible match up for Spinks ... much like Moorer v.s. Tua ... by that time Tyson was starting to step off the edge.
IMO David Tua's name should be added to this list as well. Here's a guy that has balls, chin, heart, and kayo power, but is inactive and often not in top shape. In addition he has kayo wins over 2 former heavy champs(Hasim Rahman and Michael Moorer) and 1 heavyweight titlist Oleg Maskaev.
Good addition w/Tua, but his main problems were management.
Maskaev holds a belt unless he's stripped, and add in Ruiz and Tua knocked the snot out of 4 champs. He treated Ruiz and Moorer like they were nothing.
I also thought he won handily against Ike who had trouble w/his power and relaxed style. The only guy who really beat him was Lewis.
Thanks Roberto Aqui, I had forgotten about the 30 second or so knockout win over John Ruiz. You're right about Tua's management problems. It probably to late for him to fight Wvaldmir Klitschko, especially since E. Steward is in corner.
Guys it's Tua's fault he is fat and in poor condition.
He lost the second time to Rachman. I do feel he squeezed by Ike but it was an extremely competitive war.
Roberto no one needs to fib about Tyson. This guy is the biggest joke as far as being a ring great. All of those fights in his second career, after the rape charge, He was a joke looking for the ref to help him in every minute of every round. Bitching and whining, even in that second fight with Holyfield, he was fouling and looking for the ref to bail him out, and when Mills Lane stopped the fight, Tyson actually thought HE was getting the decision, and not Holyfield. He then wanted to fight, only he wanted to fight everyone in the ring besides Holyfield, which he wanted no part. I am a fight fan, and have no ax to grind with Tyson other then he just got exposed as being what he truly is, a punk. Roberto you are really wacked out to even think about defending Tyson, this guy was a bigger joke than butterbean. The Savarese fight, and he never avenged any of his losses, unlike Ali solving the Norton style, or Louis coming back to beat Schmeling. I am a guy who firmly believe in longevity to rate a guy's career. Tyson had a very short reigh as Champion, Ali in his second career had it from 74 to 78, and previously held it years earlier in the sixties, until the Gov took it from him. Roberto I have read plenty of your threads, and have a great deal of respect for your knowledge of the game, but dude, defending Tyson isn't going to wash with me
We had fighters with short primes, like Armstrong or even Ketchal. I dont think how long some one is in there peak should play that BIG of a role.
But, that was not the topic you addressed. You stated his career was padded in the beginning against lightheavies to achieve 1 rd KOs. I proved that ain't so. He was fighting bigger fighters than Louis, Ali, Liston, Rocky, and Patterson at the start of their careers.
You never addressed his 2nd career before. Had you paid attention, you would remember that I have noted in great excess that he basically fell apart, becoming a 6 rd fighter at best. Thing is, people still had the same expectations which allowed him to make about $300 mil after prison.
The rubes snapped it up, and he was great drama after all. People pay to see KOs and NASCARs crash, and Tyson made the media billion$ more than he ever recieved. Just the facts. No need to rant over lowbrow US culture. It is what it is.
Back to the topic, from the old-timers, I would say Joe Goddard was one of the biggest wastes of talent.
I'm not certain that this guy qualifies for the topic because he may never have been that good, but I had high expectations for Jorge Luis Gonzalez after he defected to Florida. The man had amateur wins over Bowe and Lewis, after all. I had no idea he'd turn out to be a surly, drunken bully who would follow the advice of his trainers only when it didn't conflict with his pursuit of the American (drug) dream. PeteLeo.
Roberto your post about the weights, you have them all over the place. Anyway Jim Jacobs told a matchmaker he was the "kING OF SHIT" for putting together fights where Tyson can get the early knockout. This thing about people having the same expectations of him is false, Tyson had become a train wreck both in and out of the ring, people were tuning in to see what stupid thing he would do next. No one tuned in to see a great fighter, people just wanted to see ear biting, arm twisting, and any other thing Tyson would embarrase himself doing. Yes He made the money, but Roberto people will always pay for bullshit. Who thought Oscar would beat Mayweather. Society is sick in general, and will go for all of this nonsence. I don't know what more needs to be said about tyson, he was after all, a big bust and a waste of talent.
Greek I was not speaking about peaks, but longevity of a fighter. Ali was far past his prime when he beat Foreman, but found a way to win fights he should have lost. Guys like Jersey Joe, and Archie Moore have my respect because they fought well and found ways to win way past their prime. Hagler is the best example, holding the title about 8 years, and fighting many of the same guys. Just for my liking, longevity has it's place
Really, were Trevor Berbick, Pinklon Thomas, Tyrell Biggs, Tony Tubbs, Bone Crusher Smith, Tony Tucker and Michael complete pieces of sh-t? What a joke.
Why can't people see Tyson for what he was, a fu-ked up manchild with terrible character to boot who had exceptional skills that crashed and burned as his star attracted far too many smarter bloodsuchers to his flame. He stopped being a fighter, his skills disapated just enough for his physical handicaps to be exposed over time.
For two years he was an all time great. After that he deteriorated over time into a circus act.
would not agree about camacho. he went a long way.
lately i would say francisco bojado. thought he was the goods and then heard that vargas ran him out of the gym for lack of effort.
greg
Greg Page, Howard Davis Jr, and Bernard Taylor, in that order.
Naf you may have found it strange and that is your business. He looked real small to me, He showed up the night of the second Tyson-Holyfield fight. I am 6'3 myself, that had nothing to do with how he looked. He just looked real small to me, but to each his own.
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