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So you have the Lewis who beat Ruddock, Tucker, and Bruno as being Lennox at his best, and not the Lewis who defeated Briggs, Grant, Tua, Botha etc?Originally Posted by walshb
I definetely think Lewis got better as he filled out and polished up his game in the late 90s than pre-McCall when he was a stick figure and often very sloppy.
I'm on the fence with this one. He could go either way. I would have liked the case for him better if he had done more. It seemed like he took the easy way out. The whole time Tyson was gone he didn't do a thing. He could have tried to have stepped it up. But he didn't. So Bowe wouldn't fight him. He could have tried to have cleaned out the rest of the division. Instead he fought washed up fighters or club types during that time. Close to 4 years of nothing. I never heard him call out Holyfield. Or Foreman for that matter. That came later on like all of his other big fights. He waited until the really capable guys were over the hill. A really skilled fighter. But he didn't push the issue or look that good often enough.
In a word, YES!!!!
That Lewis I think was faster and a harder man to beat.
He was younger, fresher and a more imposing fighter....
A very bad trainer who did not maximize the best Lewis had to offer, when he was younger.
I don't disagree that he was a bit faster and I liked him weighing in the 230's much better, but his development retarded under Correa. He did not shine agianst Tucker, Bruno and Jackson. In fact, he seemed to regress following the Ruddock win.
Manny got more out of Lewis, but I do think the extra weight he was carrying was not beneficial at all.
Lewis' best is hard to peg, becuase His mastering of his tools came when he was not at his physical best or peak. And at that physical peak, he still needed to develop more as a fighter.
As far as Lewis "not doing anything" when Tyson was in prison.....Um. Is that an accurate statement?
Mike's last fight was June of 1991 and he was scheduled to face Holyfield in Nov of that same year. He was convicted of rape and went to prison in Feb of 1992. Released in early 1995, his first bout was agianst McNeeley in 95 and he eventually won belts in 1996 and then paid Lennox Lewis $4mill in step aside money so Mike could unify against Bruce Seldon and then of course Mike ultimately get knocked out by Evander Holyfield in Nov of the same year.
Lewis, turned pro in 1989 following the 88 olympics and in Nov of 91 when Tyson was to have faced Holyfield, Lewis was 17-0 and facing Tyrell Biggs and had already beaten Ocasio, Weaver, McRory and Gary Mason. Solid comp based on where he was in his career.
On Halloween of 1992, when Mike was in Prison, Lewis took out Rudduck in 2 rounds in what was ORGINALLY a title elimnator bout to face the winner of Holyfield and Bowe, won by Bowe. Bowe opted NOT to face Lewis, dumped his WBC belt and the WBC, as they did with Ken Norton when he beat Jimmy Young in 1977, reatroactively awarded the belt to Lewis, recognizing his bout with Razor as a title fight. So far so good for Lennox while Mike was in prison.
1993, while Mike was still in Prison, Lewis twice defended his belt agianst Tucker and Bruno. in 1994, while still in prison, Lennox defends successfully agianst Jackson and loses his title to Oliver Mccall.
Following the loss to MCall, Lewis makes two comeback fights agianst Butler and Fortune and then beats Tommy Morrison in 1995 and Ray Mercer May of 1996 in successive bouts. After the Mercer bout, Lewis was inactive as negotiations were going on re a title fight with Tyson, who not only PAID Lewis to step aside, but he gave up his WBC belt so he would not have to make a mandatory agianst Lewis and he could fight Evander Holyfield. So in essence, Mike sidestepped Lewis TWICE. Once with Money and the second time by giving up the belt.
I guess I'm curious: What else should Lewis have done? Bowe was not willing to fight him. Tyson sidestepped him twice. Holyfield himself had made a retirement during this time with heart issues(Evander was facing Bowe in 92 and 93 and then was "retired" from April 1994 until May 1995) and when he did come back, he was facing Riddick Bowe (95) and then Tyson (96 and 97).
Lewis sat by and did nothing while Mike was in prison and then was released?
Who was he to have fought that he didn't fight or that was unwilling to fight him or in the case of Holyfield, was either retired himself or fighting the two guys who wouldn't fight Lewis?
Hawk
Last edited by hawk5ins; 08-08-2007 at 10:02 AM.
If anything positive is to be said for Lennox it is that he did face a lot of taleneted men. This sitting back doing nothing suggestion is way off the mark.
He met and beat many many good heavyweights.
It wasn't his fault Bowe didn't want to fight him or that Mike
was in jail for RAPE.....
Oh and all credit to Lennox for having the character to get back in the ring and beat his two conquerors, one in brutal fashion....
It can't have been easy considering that he did really get ICED by both men
Lewis knew Tyson was trying to unify all three major belts. He already won two back to back. Now why would Tyson have taken a risk by fighting Lewis instead of fighting the third titleholder? The common sense thing for Tyson to do would be to fight the other title holder and win that belt to. Then worry about Lewis later. It makes no sense on Lewis' part either. He could have let Tyson fight the other beltholder, beat him and then Tyson would have all three belts. That way if Lewis beat Tyson he would have been the unified champion, and not have to worry about defending against another fighter to unify the title. He knew it would make no sense for Tyson to fight him at that point. Then when he refused to he could once again act like everyone was afraid of him. I still maintain he never step up though. I can see why when Tyson first wen't away, why he didn't make his move. Not ready yet. Yes, he beat Ruddock. After that who did he fight. Jackson, Butler, and Fortune are guys you fight on your way up. Not after your supposed to be the best heavyweight in the world. Most people didn't even realize that Tucker and Bruno were still fighting.
My question: WHo was he supposed to fight if Bowe would not fight him, Holyfield was fighting Bowe or was retired and Tyson was in prison?
I broke this all down about who Lewis fought, when he fought them and why he fought them and then you in turn just throw out a bunch of names, discredit them and criticize Lewis for fighting them.
Why not instead, break down MY points and then offer up what Lewis SHOULD have done instead and against whom.
IE: "Lewis first defense was against Tucker, becuase Tucker was his Mandatory defense. Yet what Lewis SHOULD have done was fight X." And make this suggestion make sense. You know, ensure that "x" wasn't in prison, he was willing to face Lewis and wasn't invloved in a match with a fighter who wouldn't face Lewis.
It's really pretty easy to do: GO get a list of the rankings AT THAT time. Find out who YOU think Lewis should have fought. And then make your position make sense.
Generalizing makes it much easier. But it doesn't say anything.
Now additionally, Out of one side of your mouth you are criticizing Lewis for not facing anyone and out of the other you say he should have just sat on the sidelines and let Tyson do what ever he pleased.
Oh and BTW, if Mike was SO determined to unify the belts, why after beating Seldon for the WBA title, did he get rid of the WBC Belt? One reason: He did not want to face Lewis. THe SAME reason he paid him $4 million to step aside PRIOR to facing Seldon.
"Lewis should have fought better comp. But even though he was the #1 contender for the WBC, he should have just let Mike do what ever he wanted and not pushed for his mandatory shot." That's not too contradictory now is it?
Hawk
Hell no. Next question
ultimo's got it right, doesn't even require much discussion!
I don't think Lewis is a top ten heavyweight, but I would most likely have him in my 20 to 30 numbers.
I really do not think that Lewis ever dodged anyone and he was fairly dominant over just about everyone that he fought, with the exception of maybe five, or six fighters, but as has been mentioned it is the manner in which he lost which greatly drops his ranking. It's not that he lost as all fighters lose, but the greats do not lose in the manner that Lewis lost when they were in their primes. In fact, very few of the greats ever lost in their primes and when they did lose in their prime it was to other all-time greats in their prime and it was not losses to second rate fighters.
I give Lewis credit for being arguably the best heavyweight of a very weak era and he did beat some good fighters.
Among his best performances was his destruction of Razor Ruddock and Andrew Golota as well as wins over capable fighters like Tommy Morrison, Vitali Klitschko, Tony Tucker, Gary Mason and Frank Bruno. His win over Tyson is often mentioned by his fans as being very impressive, but Tyson was way, way, way past it and the win really matter little. After all, Tyson lost two of his next three fights to Danny Williams and Kevin McBride, which that shows the worth of Lewis’ win over Tyson.
Lack-luster performances against the likes of Ray Mercer, Henry Akinwande, David Tua, and a very past his prime Evander Holyfield, among others, also diminished Lewis' all-time standing as he should have simply destroyed some of those guys, but due to an overly cautious style Lewis often bored fans to death.
Give him credit for what he did, but don’t over do it. All-time great…not in my opinion. Lewis was a capable heavyweight champion, in a weak era, who could have been a lot better, but who would have been relegated to contender-status in a strong era!
I thought his win over Tua was excellent.
It was a boring fight because he completely shut down Tua and made him think twice about coming in.
Absolutely agree with Starling here: Tua simply didnt dare make a fight of it once he became aware of Lewis' power and it was he rather than Lennox who turned it into a dull fight.
Tua tried to do what he could, but it was too difficult to get inside when Lewis was content to do nothing but jab. He easily out-pointed Tua, but it was his typical boring style, which was not Tua's fault. Now if that had been one fight in which Lewis was so boring then it could probably be laid on Tua, but the fact of the issue is that the way that Lewis fought Tua just happened to be his typical boring style...the Tua fight was not an abberation...that was the typical Lewis style!
does BORING automatically translate in to not being a great fighter?
I HATED the Tua bout, becuase quite frankly, it sucked.
But it was a dominant and effective performance by Lewis that should be put into the plus colum for him. Not the minus colum simply becuase the performance was not aesthically pleasing to the peepers.
BTW, I don't have Lennox in my top 10 either. But I have him alot closer to #10 than #20.
Hawk
It wasnt his style against Golota or Grant or Ruddock or Morrison, so hardly typical; but I wont deny that he was overly cautious on occasions - Hoyfield I and II, Tyson, Mavrovic, Akinwande - when had he been more aggresive he probably could have won in much more impressive style. He probably could have stopped Tua also but I felt in that fight his styole was justified - Tua was still young and dangerous.
Who deserves to be ranked higher on a heavyweight list... Lewis or Holyfield?
I have Holyfield.
I don't think Lewis was a great fighter. He was a LARGE man with a big right hand that had excellent power in it. He tended to tire early in most every bout. He lumbered around the ring like an amateur, IMO.
Based on his impressive pro record (notwithstanding the 2 KO losses to nobodies), he deserves top 15 all-time status.
But, based on watching him fight many times, I see every alltime top 10 guy utterly destroying him, then add a prime Tyson (not in my top 10) to do the same. Maybe a Greg Page or a Joe Walcott as well. And I'd like Tim Witherspoon big against Lennox. Not to mention some of the big, old-time guys like Max Baer and Jim Jefferies. And I certainly favor the master boxer Gene Tunney over Lennox, who was nothing of the sort.
The more I think about it, I'd put Lewis about #16-20 alltime.
By the way, Lewis was a decent guy, a fairly articulate interview, and a credit to the sport. We need more fighters like him.
Last edited by Michael Frank; 09-12-2007 at 05:39 PM.
Many call Lewis a boring fighter, and i agree on that one. But lets not forget the fight game is in fact not a game its first and foremost a business and a very hard one to be in. You get a totally different picture if your the fighter instead of being just the observer. A fighters job is to win fights first and foremost, Each fighter has different tools in his make up. To win a fight, you maximise your strengths and minimise your weaknesses. Lewis has done this very affectedly over most of his career you have to agree. In all honesty ask yourself is it better to have the acclaim of Ali and be the shadow of the man you once were. Or be criticised as a fighter and yet walk away from boxing with your health in tact and a future to look forward to.
People say Lewis has a glass chin, i agree its not in the same league as Liston, Foreman Ali etc etc. But its not quite as bad as people make out. Its no worse then Joe Louis had, and Jack Johnson did not have the greatest of chins hence the style he used in his fights. Now if Lewis has such a bad chin, how come he has been down only 2 times in 14 years of pro boxing, and that includes i think about 18 championship fights. Yes, we know he was out in those fights but its still a pretty good record all said and done. Wonder how Joe Louis himself who was put down by some pretty average fighters would react if hit by some of the big guys that Lewis faced.
Marciano down twice but in Rocks favour they were flash KDs
Louis - double figures and lets not forget the fighters over that last decade or so were in most cases bigger and probably hit harder then the majority of Louis's opposition.
Ali 4 as a pro 2 or 3 times as an amateur
Holmes 4 i think
Tyson is it 4 or 5
Holyfield i think 5 or 6
Forman - 3 or 4 times by Ali, Young and Lyle
Liston, Frazier and quite a few more i could name.
Now why was Lewis the guy they say has a glass chin not knocked down more. Because he is not quite the mug some seem to think he is, he made most of his opponents fight not as they would want to. At 38 years of age and being inactive and far from the prime Lewis, he still managed to take Vitali best punches.
To sum up Lewis is far from the best HW but he brings to the table to compensate for a less then great chin enough weapons in his make up. (tremendous strength and power, good jab, fair speed and above all like Gene Tunney very intelligent in boxing terms) Even at his prime he might not have beat the best of the best, but nevertheless he would have been a very tough match up for a lot of them.
In all fairness to Lewis he has to be in the top 20 I place him myself just out of the top 10. Now just cast your mind back in history to the multitude of young men who did battle as pro fighter's in the heavyweight division. Even being ranked in the Top 50 or so is something to be proud of. I think a fighter who has earned himself the right to be in that Top 50 has the right to a little respect when it comes to the fight game.
At least Marciano, Tunney and Lewis all have something in common. There the only 3 fighters in History in the HW division to have at least beat once ever fighter that stepped in the ring with them. Lewis might not even make the top 10 on a lot of peoples list but don't underrate him, at his peak he would have been a good match up to say the least against many of the All time greats. Bigger is not always better, but as history proves in nearly all cases the good big man usually beats the good little man. Just look at the little men throughout history who have tried to take on men in a higher division. (and i dont mean like today when you can jump up a few pounds and win a Title)
I will agree that on a P4P he would have been in trouble with some of them. He had bad balance, was not comfortable with the smaller men at times, and did not have the greatest chin, but the truth is it was no worse then the Great Joe Louis had, but what he did bring into the ring was a fair jab, strength, great punch power, and like Tunney used his abilities to his own advantage and did not most times play into the other guys hands. That's why some of his fights just like Larry Holmes at times could be pretty boring. But again just like Holmes he achieved his objectives and won most of his fights, and believe it or not, that's the name of the game *winning*
I never have really liked Lewis as a fighter, and that's the honest truth, but i refuse to let my dislike of him cloud my judgement of him overall. Well, for what its worth My Boxing Friends that's how i read it. If he is not an all time great then he is fairly close i feel anyway.
But re the times down, it may only be officially twice, but in both occasions he was stopped.
And both times by fighters, inferior to him.
Lewis was rocked pretty good by Bruno. Rocked by Vitali. Rocked by Briggs. And while never truly hurt, he was shaken up by Mercer more than once (and came back quite nicely I might add.)
He also should have been listed as offciallly as down agianst Henry Akinwande, when he was clearly clipped and went down.
Getting dropped and stopped by a McCall and a Rahman is never going to ever be diluted. When a Joe Louis get's dropped by a Jimmy Braddock or a Tony Galento, fighters Joe was clearly superior to, he got up and took care of business.
When Holmes goes down agianst a Renaldo Snipes, with an explosive a shot at Lewis was hit with, Larry got up and kicked the shot out of Snipes. Lewis was unable to continue and if he had been allowed, he would have gotten hurt. Holmes did the same agianst Shavers. But Earnie's power was something that if he connects like that SHOULD put you down. Agian though, Holmes got up and went on to win. By KO.
I don't think Lennox has a CHINA chin. And I think he ranks within the top 12 to 15 Heavies of all time. Dare I say.....he was a great fighter, if not necessarily an ALL TIME Great fighter. Yet I still think the chin IS a liability for him. Under certain circumstances with other great fighters and punchers.
But re the chin......going down against McCall and Rahman....Well you can argue your way out of the "bad Chin" label (Perfect shot, bad balance, round card girl distracted him), if he got up and took care of business.
Unfortunately for Lewis, he didn't, so IMO, you can't.
Hawk
I think in terms of Lewis' historical ranking his most vunerable charactersistic is not his chin, but his lack of charisma and the fact his mixed heritage put him on the outer with US fans and never really trully embraced by the English or Canadians or Jamacians for that matter either. It didn't give him a "home court" feel in many fights - He was never a fan favourite.
He had an English cheer section at times, but before you point at the Pommy cheer squad in the Holyfield fights, let's remember that in the Bruno fight, it was Frank that the ENglish had the true soft spot for.
And besides, around 99/2000 - English sports fans didn't have much to cheer about, that said, he's no Ricky Hatton or Bruno.
Those two issues for me seem to be at the root of a lot of peoples perception of Lewis.
The chin is more tangible, but really at the end of the day - I think Lewis tends to be judged in a harsher light - Becasue regardless of the fact as Hawk5ins states aboveWhilst yes - He did not recover from those shots - He sought and got revenge over both fighters.Well you can argue your way out of the "bad Chin" label (Perfect shot, bad balance, round card girl distracted him), if he got up and took care of business
I am certainly no Lewis apologist, his lack of charisma didn't connect with me like his jab did on Tua - But I think a valid case can be made in the case of the Rahman fight, that circumstances of another of his less attractive traits were symptomatic of that loss.
Lewis was dismissive of Rahman as an opponent, decided to hang out on the set with a Klitshcko rather than acclimatise and get in proper fighting shape for the first Rahman fight and I think just watching how gassed he was in that fight showed that the right hand that Rahman caught him with was started by Lewis almost commiting a textbook "looking past his opponent mistake".
He carried himself with that serious self assuredness that gave his personality an unlikable twist - You couldn't really see Lennox lauging at himself, that attractive human trait of self-deprecation and I think for all of his achievements in the ring - That personality and intangible effect it has on perceptions leaves the majority of fight fans and even respondants to this thread pointing out that Holyfield deserved the nod in the second fight rather than maybe the equally valid point that he was utterly robbed in the first fight.
I thought Holy-man did enough in the second to win too and I would put Lewis somewhere in the 11-20 range as well, but I think that a lot of the Lewis perception is defined by his cloudy out of ring personality as much as the perception of his feats within one.
Last edited by doomeddisciple; 09-24-2007 at 01:00 AM.
Lewis played Rahman like a drum in the rematch, true, but I still don't think that he ever actually beat McCall at all. (I addressed this in my earlier post on this thread.) In fact, I'll go so far as to say that, for me, Lennox' hesitant and overly-careful performance in McCall II actually detracts from his legacy. Imagine what Ali, Holmes, or Foreman would have done to defenseless Oliver in that situation.
Seems like most folks feel comfortable with slotting Lewis somewhere in the 11-20 range of all-time heavies. That's copasetic with me. PeteLeo.
I am beginning to think that Lennox Lewis is the most underated heavyweight champion of all time. I am surprised to see how many here write him off as anything less than an all time great ... I guess it's the same old story, no one roots for Golaith ...
IN his entire career Lennox Lewis only lost twice. Both came in fights he took lightly again huge, strong hard punching men who had the nights of their lives. In rematches, a focused Lennox destroyed both and avenged his losses.
It's intetesting to see that when discussing Lennox so many talk about what he could not do ... I see it differently...I believe that a focused Lewis is one of the most dangerous heavyweights in history based on his size, speed, strength, heart, excellent jab and tremendous power. Manny Steward has said, long after Lennox had retired, that on many nights Lennox would have been extremely difficult for anyone to beat...
I think that Lewis get the respect that he deserves here on the CBZ, no more nor less.
I have always had a lot of respect for the fighting ability of Lennox Lewis. He was a gaint of a Heavyweight in statue yet, unlike many other huge Heavyweights was still fast, mobile and well co-ordinated with excellent punch variety. He beat every man he ever fought, was physically very, very strong and had a right hand that could put World class fighters into the third row.
Yes he did twice turn up poorly prepared and got stopped by two very capable fighters whom both landed dynomite shots that most likely would have stopped 90% of Heavyweights. But credit has to be given to Lennox for chasing the rematch and setting the record straight like a true Champion does. After the stunning lose to Rahman, Lennox Lewis had the strength of character to get straight back into a rematch, not all fighters would have done that without a few warm up fights.
I can never understand it when Lennox Lewis is accused by some fans and writers as having a 'glass jaw' to me that is just a silly, lazy statement used by people with an agenda. At the top level his chin was fine, not every Heavyweight can have the chin of Ali & Holmes and even those two Boxing immortals had a few very, very close calls and were Cooper, Snipes any better that McCall & Rahman?
I have said for a few years now that on a given night Lennox Lewis had the size and ability to give ANY Heavyweight Champion in history all the trouble they could handle and in some cases even beat some of our heros of yester year, wether we like to admit it or not.
Joe, extremely well said ... especially regarding his chin ... Lewis took some huge shots from Ray Mercer in their war. If his chin was weak like Klit Jr's, he never would have survived that fight.
I'm not sure about Kiki's point as the opinions on Lewis here run a huge gamit ...
No heavyweight great gets standard, universal praise nor is ranked in the same range outside of Ali and perhaps Louis.
At what number-range ought Lewis be rated? Some persons believe Larry Holmes #2 all-time, others top 10ish. Dempsey? Anywhere from 1 through teens likely.
I don't see Lennox as an individual case study of erratic appraisal.
I would disagree with the claim that Lewis "destroyed" McCall in the rematch. In fact, his hesitant, unspectacular performance against a man who had absolutely no right to be in the ring that night is one of the reasons I can't rate him in the Top Ten.
Also, I can't think of another truly elite heavyweight champ who was completely obliterated twice during his prime years by single punches from two second-tier opponents (perhaps, in Rahman's case, third- or fourth-tier is more appropriate). Lennox' jaw was hardly "fine" in the pantheon of great champs.
However, I do agree that at his best he would have been a daunting challenge for any other man who ever held the title. I just don't think he would have beaten the very best. It's somewhere around 12-16 for Lewis on my list. PeteLeo.
Last edited by PeteLeo; 11-03-2007 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Spelunking -- I Mean, Spelling
Well said PL, and I agree with you.
Also completely agree. The Holyfield rematch sum it him up for me. Outpointed a very lethargic Evander in their first fight fighting very cautiously, bad decision comes, and rematch ordered. He has his chance to stamp his authority on an aging (37) beatable champion, and what happens?? He fights even more cautiously and in my opionon and many others lost the fight. He established himself as a first tier fighter by demolishing the pretenders (Morrison, Ruddock, Grant, Tua) but failed to enter into that upper special echelon. Also rewatching some of Lewis's fights, his stamina was not great (was huffing and puffing by the 6-8th rounds vs Evander, Mercer, and Mavoric) and in an era of 15 rounders he loses more fights.
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