Knockout: When a loss and when quitting ...

**HE Grant** · 08-16-2007, 03:40 PM

I have read many times that so and so lost by a ko bt it was really a matter of them quitting or throwing in the towel mentally. I am sure there are varying degrees to this as it often is a bit of a complex question ... however, there are times when exceptional fighters were KO'ed and I ask, did they all quit?

Two extreme examples...

Buster Douglas v.s. Holyfield

James Braddock vs Joe Louis ....

It's easy to say Buster came in the ring fat, was getting his ass kicked and quit ... however, Braddock was flattened by Joe Louis in a bout where he showed tremendous heart and took tremendous punishment before getting stopped. Did Braddock's will finally give out or did the physical punishment dished out by Louis simply create a hurdle he could not get over ...

I'd like to hear more from you guys on this topic ...

**PD99** · 08-16-2007, 09:07 PM

Douglas did not appear to be in very sturdy physical or mental shape for Holyfield. Holy's right counter was a good shot but I think a still capable Douglas chose to wave the white flag when the going got a little tough.

Braddock showed tremendous heart and will against Louis but simply fell from the accumulated punishment and final, hellacious right hand from Louis imo. The last shot rendered him unconcious and out for several mins thereafter I believe.

Now I think Maxie Baer chose to stay down against Louis because he could see no point in continuing (I agree). A granite chin can be a great asset in boxing but I suppose it can be a curse when you're taking a hiding next to nothing with no immediate short term relief in sight (eg the other guy knocking you cold). There are several instances of steel chinned fighters having to take matters into their own hands and end proceedings before being beaten into an absolute pulp.

**10-8** · 08-16-2007, 09:25 PM

Arguello quit in his second fight with Pryor. Knocked down Arguello sat and looked directly at Richard Steele as he tolled the ten count.

**TKO11** · 08-17-2007, 07:30 AM

Rgearding Holyfield/Douglas, Mills Lane said, "I don't know if he COULD HAVE gotten up, but he sure never TRIED TO get up."

How about Louis himself in the first Schmelling fight? He took a real beating in that fight, but it still appears he could have gotten up from the last knockdown. He took a look at the ref counting, considered it for a second, then rolled over. But I liken this one to the Pryor/Arguello rematch, though it wasn't as obvious a surrender. I think both guys were just tired of having their brains beat in, knew that if they got up they were just in for more of the same, and decided not to.

Not everyone can be Tex Cobb and just keep coming no matter what is being thrown at them. Sometimes, after you've taken your beating and KNOW that you cannot get to your guy, it isn't all that wrong to wave the white flag. Most of the times when guys throw in the towel and takes three shades of hell for it (eg. Big Klit) is when they didn't make any effort to overcome adversity.

And you can go too far. Mills Lane also reffed Tex Cobb against Eddie Gregg in 1985 (and Tex took a hellacious beating for ten rounds in that fight). Late in the fight Mills actually stopped the action after Tex was badly staggered to see if he was alright to continue. Mills asked, "You OK Tex?" Tex replied, "Yes." Mills asked, "Do you know where you are?" Tex's response: "Yes. I am in Reno getting the shit kicked out of me."

**PD99** · 08-17-2007, 08:50 PM

Tex Cobb. What a crack up! If all the stuff quoted of him was actually said as and when and literally off the tongue, I'd credit him as being more witty than Ali himself.

Yes, upon being decked in rd 12, an apparently still cognizant Joe Louis had the look of an extremely sick person in bed, refusing to rise upon request, shaking their head and choosing to roll over and sleep instead. Perhaps Joe did lapse into a semi conscious state after that moment but if did decide to stay down, I couldn't blame him.

There are many shades to their perception of quitting. Take Liston v Martin. Now Sonny was KTFO, no question. However, did Liston drop tools somewhat a few rds earlier when it was obvious that Martin wasn't going to lay down easily (Sonny was having it all his way at least up until the 4th rd kd) and when Sonny himself was beginning to bust up? Not an outright quit but perhaps a loss of conviction and increasing timidity on Sonny's part when the going got tough?

**HC05** · 08-18-2007, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by PD99

There are many shades to their perception of quitting. Take Liston v Martin. Now Sonny was KTFO, no question. However, did Liston drop tools somewhat a few rds earlier when it was obvious that Martin wasn't going to lay down easily (Sonny was having it all his way at least up until the 4th rd kd) and when Sonny himself was beginning to bust up? Not an outright quit but perhaps a loss of conviction and increasing timidity on Sonny's part when the going got tough?

Hardly, Liston was winning easily on his jab and his physical presence. In fact it looked to me like Martin was just trying to survive until he broke Listons nose in the 8th and then suddenly started to put punches together and work his own jab. Liston at this point in his career was all jab and single shots, a one-paced old fighter.

**Phillyfan** · 08-18-2007, 09:35 PM

golota quit vs grant when grant knocked him down late in the fight. golota would have won if he didn't throw in the towel. you could also make the argument golota quit during the tyson fight, although tyson did break golotas jaw.

**PD99** · 08-18-2007, 10:42 PM

HC05 - As I said, shades of perception and I wouldn't argue against your take.

In Martin, I saw a fighter not just trying to survive but trying to work his own jab and be competitive where possible. He hung tough, survived a hard KD and still fought back with reasonable deference to Liston's power (he had to remain on his feet after all for any hope of winning).

**gregbeyer** · 08-19-2007, 01:14 AM

lot of people say that joe walcott in the second fight with marciano may have been able to get up from that right uppercut in the first but remembering what he went through against rocky in fight one and having fought a long career decided to hell with it and took the count....can't really blame joe for that.
greg

**HC05** · 08-19-2007, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by PD99

HC05 - As I said, shades of perception and I wouldn't argue against your take.

In Martin, I saw a fighter not just trying to survive but trying to work his own jab and be competitive where possible. He hung tough, survived a hard KD and still fought back with reasonable deference to Liston's power (he had to remain on his feet after all for any hope of winning).

You're right, Martin was doing more than just survive but I still think he could have forced the issue far more than he did against the ageing Liston. Still he got the job done in the end but it did cost him his career.

As for quitting, I think a good example is Chavez in his second fight with Randall. He was given the fight anyway but we all saw what we saw.

**Jay** · 11-25-2007, 03:43 PM

I think the Tyson KO loss to Lewis fits the bill. The last right hand was a monster shot right on the jaw that Tyson didnt see coming, and though he took it well (his knees didnt even wobble) he appeared to go down on his own since he had enough of the nasty beating he was taking.

A lot of the tough KO victims of Joe Louis like Baer, Galento, Godoy, etc seemed to lose more from being mentally broken than being physically incapacitated. Not that I blame them. The pain from getting consistently nailed by prime Louis combinations while he was wearing 6 ounce gloves must have been excruciating.

**Michael Frank** · 11-25-2007, 04:42 PM

I'm all for a fighter fighting to the bitter end, but if he's losing badly and knows he's unable to put up a decent fight, and knows he's going to take a beating and get his head handed to him . . . but neither the ref not his corner elect to stop it . . . then I sure hope he "quits."

Somebody there needs to look out for his welfare--might as well be him, if no one else can see it.

In baseball, players get to leave a game with just a hangnail. No one criticizes them for it. Boxers are afforded no such luxury, even when getting severely beaten.

For what it's worth, IMO Douglas didn't quit against Holyfield. While down, he moved his hand in front of his face in an odd way that made me think he was totally out of it. It was a very uncommon movement. Some here question Douglas's heart, but I don't believe he just refused to try to get up from one knockdown. I believe he was badly hurt, by a perfect shot thrown over a missed uppercut by him, which made him very vulnerable.

**doomeddisciple** · 11-25-2007, 09:37 PM

I think for the public and fans to judge a fighter for quitting - Even in extreme cases like the ultimate capitualtion in the second Leonard fight by Duran - Is pretty much a load of BS.

Pretty much no one - I include myself in this even though I've sparred a fair few rounds in my training - Can put themselves in the position of a pro boxer who is being hit by another pro boxer.

In a game where we celebrate the chance of one punch turning around an entire fight, something that sets boxing apart from most other sport - You can't see a football team down 35 points with a minute to go loose the game - I think this fundamental atraction to boxing instantly puts any fighter who doesn't go out on his shield or to hospital after the decision is read out is sort of what gives boxing abolishonists ammunition.

In day 2005 - The year Tszyu, Gatti and Freitas all quit in title fights - The range of responses tended to go in with the flavour of the fight - Gatti, for all his heart and blood and guts over the years, we pretty much forgave him instantly as he protested McGirt's merciful stoppage of the Mayweather slaughter.

Tszyu copped a less sympathetic response - Of course - None of those calling Tszyu a quitter afterwards had recieved the most brutal non-penalised foul in the history of boxing since Duran took his lightweight title from Buchanan - Along with 11 rounds of punishment.

None of those people had been with KT since he turned pro as Johnny Lewis had and what he saw was left in the KT tank. Johnny stopped the fight, Tszyu sorta glazed over agreed.

To me this is the sort of thing that I find hypocritical about a lot of boxing fans. There is an outcry when we have a death in the sport. There is an outcry when the punishment in the ring is percieved to be a case of the corner not living up to their number one responsibility - The safety of their fighter.

We have trouble ratifying quitting because we are often blessed with a fighter turning back all reasonable expectations of victory when they display a lions courage in either coming back from the brink in exceptional cases like Corrales Castillo I or when a fighter absorbs ungodly punishment yet finishes the fight on his feet, ala Chico's last fight against Joshua Clottey, that had many boxing observers calling for Chico to retire.

Quitting is the antithesis of what attracts boxing fans to the sport - I don't think that it's an ideal outcome and I don't think in any sport when you see a player or a team give up on the field is a very attractive thing at any time.

But in 99% of sports, those teams or players are not getting a potentially life ending/threataning beating.

We celebrate the marathon runner - Of course the guy that ran it the first time dropped dead a few seconds after running it - We often see footage over the years from events like the Hawaiian triathlon - Where people are mentally dragging their limp, handicapped bodies over the line in feats of unquestionable mental toughness and an attractive example of mind over matter.

However - Who the hell are we to judge when a figher has had enough and doesn't want to end up talking like Meldrick Taylor?

Frietas commited perhaps the most Duran-esque looking quit of the three examples I gave above against Corrales. Yet again - He had been dropped three times by an unfairly strong and tall lightweight - You may not place him higher in your all time list as a result - But to label a guy a straight up quitter disrespects the performances that are harder to measure the damage being done to a fighters psyche.

Of course that performance for many detractors outshines the Barrios fight where he scored a come from behind KO in the championship rounds. That performance in my view showed what Freitas was made of.

How the hell do we know what was actually going on in a fighters mind when they're trained not to display weakness, risking their opponent descending on them for the kill?

Personally - I don't think that quitting is attractive for the sport or any other, but I think boxers deserve more respect that they get - Because it seems to be the worst thing a fighter can do in boxing.

I don't think it is, and I think there's a lot of other things about boxing that is worse than quitting, but I don't think there's a more stigmatised label a fighter can wear.

**greek1237** · 11-26-2007, 09:40 AM

I though Louis try to used the ropes to get up, before he fell back down, hardly "Quiting" so to speak. That was a good right that deck Louis for the final time. Louis also was taking a beating though out the fight, if you got all 12 rounds, you could see Max relly beating Louis though out most of the fight.(Louis had his movements of couse.)

**Michael Frank** · 11-26-2007, 04:38 PM

Doomeddisciple, in your post #14 you eloquently said what I was trying to say in post #13. It's so easy for people who'd never get in a ring to question boxers' hearts, and I'm repulsed by it.

I wonder how many who doubt boxers' efforts give money to help people like Gerald McClellan. Or think that if they do, they're entitled to expect boxers to fight until they need to be hospitalized for permanent injuries.

I SO admire many fighters for not just their skills, but their hearts and their determination to better their (typically impoverished) circumstances. But I have so LITTLE regard for most everyone around them, including the "fan."