In a 15 round title matchup, can Gerrie possibly stop Tim with the Bionic Right, or does Tim stop Gerrie late or decision him?
In a 15 round title matchup, can Gerrie possibly stop Tim with the Bionic Right, or does Tim stop Gerrie late or decision him?
The only time Spoon got blasted was when Bonecrusher ambushed him, swarmed him fast and caught him cold. It was less about a well placed shot and more about being overwhelmed, not to mention Spoon being unmotivated out of shape and disenterested.
I would see this as a late round stoppage win for a prime Spoon. Close, even fight for the first 10 (sorta Thomas-Coetzee) with a late round TKO over a diminished stamina Coetzee.
Actually, I think Gerrie has a hell of a good chance to knock Tim out, simply because when he was fresh he was an offensive monster. Spoon, while talented, wasn't the hardest guy to find, and for 7-8 rounds Coetzee would be the guy doing most of the damage. IMO, of course.
After the 8th, if Tim is still around, Gerrie would almost certainly do what he always did - tire out, pant, stop throwing, hang his hands and get beat. Will Gerrie's offense stop Witherspoon within 8? Maybe, maybe not. But I think this is a very even fight, odds-wise.
My "Yes" answer applied to both scenarios.
Trying to be less wordy.
I think Coetzee had so few fine performances against top guys, whereas Witherspoon nearly beat Holmes, that I like Spoon. Coetzee could be kayoed, Spoon again lost that way but one time when his mind and body weren't in it, to a guy (Smith) he easily beat previously.
Tim had a good defense and Gerrie was SLOW, so I think Tim avoids getting very damaged. Tim also hits hard enough to hurt Coetee.
Tim by easy decision or late KO.
I disagree with your post 100% Michael - Witherspoon is the one that had few fine performances against top guys. Tim, in his heyday, totally maxed his potential that one night with Holmes. He never looked that good against anybody with a pulse again. He won or lost stinkers against all of the top guys he fought (Thomas, Page, Tubbs) except for Bruno (which would have been another one except Tim managed to TKO him) and Smith, who in their first fight was his next-to-best performance, and in the rematch he never even had a chance to get started. He was hot and cold, looked great once and looked good once. The rest of the time he scraped by.
Coetzee was not like that at all. After making a fool of Spinks he had three straight WBA title fights where he looked AWESOME until he ran out of gas tweice, and finished Dokes the third time. From that brief period from 1980 to 1983 he was as good as anyone in the game (and IMO in a better class than the late 80s Don King revolving door losers).
Also, while I never thought Coetzee was fast he was at least as fast as Witherspoon. Hell, Coetzee was thought of as the second fastest heavy (next to Holmes) when he fought Tate, and that was much of his reputation.
Sharkey once aptly called Coetzee the "heavyweight Oscar De La Hoya", which I thought was 100% accurate. For the first 7-8 rounds he was an offensive machine that was as good as anyone. After the 8th, he pretty much sucked. But Tim will engage him, and Gerrie's arsenal was always more impressive than the "throw a punch now and then" Witherspoon. He'll get hit, and I think Gerrie has as much chance of stopping him in that first half as Sppon does of lasting to take Gerrie out late or scrape a decision from him.
TK011, Coetzee was never thought of as the 2nd fastest heavyweight except maybe when in a ring alone with his opponent. If there was a referee in there, then Gerrie was 3rd fastest. When he fought Tate, there were heavies named Page and Dokes making their marks who were both considered to have the speed of Holmes--much faster than Coetzee. Nobody said otherwise.
"Making a fool" of a coked-up much smaller Spinks is not such a badge of honor for Gerrie. Coetzee, as I recall, got beaten easily by Page, Tate, Snipes, and Weaver in his so-called prime. An offensive machine as good as anyone? In your opinion. He was a big puncher, that much is true.
Of the 4 guys you mentioned Spoon fighting "stinkers" against, 2 beat your man Coetzee, and Thomas, as I recall, had a draw. Making Spoon's chances against him look good. Man, Coetzee lost to Bruno, Snipes, and Barkley! Spoon also beat Snipes. Spoon's losses were mostly from the age of 39 on.
Spoon destroyed some fighters, such as Broad and Jorge Luis Gonzalez, and others avoided him. He didn't "scrape by." He was hot and cold, true, but a more skilled guy than Coetzee and with a fine defense, probably the best at heavy in his time. And a heavy punch, too.
Coetzee had a very heavy punch, I'll agree, but your analysis seriously lacks the experience of actually seeing Coetzee fight, it sounds like. Dokes was strongly favored over him, too, but who knew he'd come in high on cocaine.
You could be right that Coetzee somehow beats Spoon--no one of us on this board gets every real fight right in advance--but I don't see your facts as being facts.
I strongly disagree with your statement that Coetzee was "easily" beaten by "Snipes, Weaver, Page and Tate."
Weaver took a pounding from Coetzee for nine rounds before rallying to win the fight via late round kayo in 1980. That bout was an incredibly tough and closely contested match. Very, very competitive.
As for Snipes, the consensus is that Coetzee actually beat him in their 1981 bout. Snipes was floored twice in that bout, and the decision is regarded by the majority of fans and journalists as an outright robbery.
Tate beat Coetzee handily on points in 1979, but I don't know if I'd call it an easy win for Tate. Coetzee fought competently in that bout despite losing a clear-cut nod on the scorecards.
I didn't see the Page-Coetzee bout, so I can't really say if Page won "easily" or not. I have read however that both fighters rocked each other several times before Coetzee was stopped in the eighth.
As for Coetzee's handspeed, it is a fact that he had lightning quick hands. Coetzee was an extremely fast puncher. Possibly Coetzee had the fastest hands of any heavyweight of his day outside of Holmes, Page, Dokes and a select few other heavyweights.
Coetzee's big weakness was stamina. He tended to gas after five or six rounds of combat, after which he was prone to becoming ponderous and dropping his hands.
My guess is that Coetzee was probably all washed up going into the Page fight. There is no doubt that Coetzee's performances after the Page loss were not his best...therefore it's probably not right to judge Gerrie on the basis of his defeats by Bruno and Barkley.
I do believe that on their best nights, Witherspoon would have been too much for Coetzee. When he was in shape, Witherspoon was excellent. But Witherspoon would have had to be in shape to beat Coetzee...Gerrie would have had an edge over an out-of-shape and undertrained Witherspoon.
Gonzalez? I'll take Coetzee over that Tim, Gonzalez and the Snipes that Gonzales beat! I'm not around to ruin anyone's good time, but here I go anyway.
Almost beating Larry is aillustrative of Tim's potential, or his merit... or it might be an indication of how good he was that night.. not that he necessarily ever got better than that. It also could be that Tim benefited from anonymity a bit in that bout...not to mention his style as it applied to Larry? I think Tim is tough for Larry in any sense. While Larry was great and Coetzee was not, how Tim and Gerrie match up is more my concern.
Oats-EE (stress on each syllable) had as many performances in which he looked good as Spoon did if not more, the difference was in the amount of good results, which tips to Spoon, kind of. Coetzee lost his ability to take a shot it appeared by the Page bout, and he was pretty much done.
I really don't see this as a bout where it is immediately clear Tim is superior to Gerrie in anything other than Tim's lack of KO losses. Then again, Tim got bullied by Pink Thomas and, IMO, went absolutely life and death with a Tony Tubbs who actually engaged Tim in the trenches when he wasn't pulling a Tim wincing from Spoon's sweat rubbing into his eyes from their hug-fest... then there is Tim's epic against the whacky apparent-savant Greg Page.
Witherspoon's chin and his lethargerrr ummmm steadiness(?) can see him through to a win if he doesn't get swamped by Coetzee early. I don't mean caught and KO'd.. but I do mean hurt and falling way behind. Coetzee could beat him over 12 if he doesn't freak out and forget to take in oxygen, but I honestly would probably bet on Tim and hope he didn't grow roots and find himself content to hunt Gerrie down. Coetzee's tough guy act of leading with his face wasn't too bad of a liability in HIS prime.
And Coetzee, while somehow viewed now as slowish is not the elephantine guy he is made out to be, which is evident in the Tate, Weaver and Dokes bouts. Maybe the label of being horribly slow has something to do with him probably being viewed as 'gritty' or 'making the most of his talents' if my drift is gotten.
I also know Cliff has seen Coetzee fight quite a bit. So have I.
As an aside... I was a big fan of Coetzee...(stop the presses) but I also liked Tim. The difference between the two which could be big is that Coetzee always tried hard, and that he himself was a bully-type fighter. How would Tim do against a guy coming for HIM when in his career he was not a guy who tossed a lot of leather. Read as: is Tim going to punch enough to make Gerrie pay?
It is an interesting bout.
Could we also not look at Witherspoon's performance agianst Larry, Whihc A: He DID lose and B: the best showing that he EVER had agianst a quality, skilled opponent (no shutting out Bonecrusher Smith doesn't qualify) and also conclude that Holmes simply was not his sharpest that evening?
This was the bout where we all saw Holmes beginning to slip. Combined with the skill that Timmy had, knowing he was indeed "fighting up" that night and Holmes was simply off and beginning the slide, Isn't this all a recipe for Witherspoon maybe looking better than he ever did agian, BECAUSE of the circumstances?
Maybe he never reached that level agian, becuase he fought OVER his head that night. When every other performance fails to measure up or come close, then I think this certainly is plausible.
I too must echo the excpetion taking with the "Coetzee was clearly beaten by" list for reasons already listed. ALthough, I must make a comment about these two lines: "Man, Coetzee lost to Bruno, Snipes, and Barkley! Spoon also beat Snipes." You MIGHT want to check out both Coetzee Snipes and Witherspoon Snipes and then re-comment on who actually looked better agianst Mr. Snipes here. Timmy's win over Renaldo was not nearly as controversial as Snipes win over Coetzee, but it was generally panned none the less.
Could Coetzee beat Timmy? I say yes. He could. Could Timmy beat Gerrie? I also say yes. Who would I favor? Witherspoon. But this imo is a toss up. I can see multiple scenarios playing out with both fighters as victors.
Last edited by hawk5ins; 09-14-2007 at 07:50 AM.
Michael, I am not trying to start a pissing contest, but you say it sounds like I'VE never seen Gerrie fight, and you say something like Coetzee was "beaten easily by Page, Tate, Snipes, and Weaver"?
This has been done a few posts ago, but Gerrie was clearly beating Tate through 7, about even at 10, and ran totally out of gas to lose about 9-6. The Snipes fight is considered my many to be one of the most blantant robberies in history (though I am not among them). Gerrie was CRUSHING Renaldo through 6 rounds (and had decked Rennie twice), then ran totally out of gas. Aagainst Weaver he was MILES ahead, had Weaver nearly KOed on more than one occassion, then ran out of gas compeltely again. I STILL had him up in rounds when he was knocked out, having already won 8 rounds of the fight.
And against Page, Gerrie got KOed in a round where the timekeeper lsot his watch. The round was already over 4 minutes old when Gerrie got tagged and was knocked out. I'm sure you'll agree that for a guy with stamina issues, fighting rounds that last forever is a bit of a problem.
And the network announcers during Tate/Coetzee made extensive mention of Coetzee quick hands. "Nobody said otherwise" about Coetzee being slow as hell? Right-ee-o.
I think they're pretty close in ability. Style-wise, I like Witherspoon. imo, the overhand right lands early and often. Spoon within six.
All, and esp. TKO11, I stand corrected on MY facts. It was late and though I had re-read my post, I focused on some other things than that the several guys beat Gerrie "easily." I remember and have re-viewed the Weaver fight more than once, and it was no easy win for Weaver, as noted very well by Kenmore. Mike was struggling most of the fight, as I recall, but I think much of it was due to Gerrie cheating--locking him up against the ropes with his arms, which Dundee as CBS commentator noted several times. I recalled Tate having little trouble with Gerrie, guess I'll have to look again.
In the end, I still see Tim by easy decision or KO/TKO over Coetzee, but (even the other day) I could see either Tim or Gerrie winning, I just like Tim's style and defense in this match. I don't think a top guy has to have his best night to beat Coetzee, who was hot & cold, and who apparently was a bit of a head case. He has said in multiple interviews that he had substantial self-doubt, even in his heyday.
Before anyone jumps on this, I agree Tim was hot & cold, too. I also agree with the several of you who feel it's an intriguing matchup. Though a stink-out scenario was always possible with Spoon, I'd expect this match would be interesting to watch.
Chum= shark bait.
Coatzee was a worthless, talent- free bum who had zero skills and the right complexion. That's it. End of story.
Seriously, I haven't seen a lot of Gerrie but from memory, he was a surprisingly sound and hard-hitting guy. Tim lived in the same apartment complex as I did for awhile, which doesn't say alot about his money management. (I saw him at the pizza place across the street once and raced home to find something with him on or in it to sign. Tearing through the millions of boxing mags I had strategically tossed everywhere, the only thing I could find was him getting thrashed in one against Bonecrusher. I actually headed back with it before common sense took over.)
Aren't cha glad you read this?
Tim Witherspoon at his best was very good, but he was also kind of inconsistent. Another inconsistent puncher named Mike Weaver was able to kayo Coetzee in October 1980 and IMO Witherspoon was overall better fighter. Witherspoon also had kayoed Bruno(who several years later would kayo Coetzee), something tells me that Witherspoon would also stop Coetzee inside of 10 rounds.