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Thread: Shamelessly Ducked ....

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    Shamelessly Ducked ....

    The most famous ducked contender in boxing history might have been Harry Wills. No matter how you feel about who might have won, only the biggest Dempsey worshippers can write off the fact that Dempsey never fought the top contender for almost his entire reign.

    Today the most terribly ducked fighter is Ann Wolfe in her endless quest to get a fight with Laila Ali. I think it is obvious to all that Laila, highly marketable, has no problem fighting an old, fat and small Christy Martin but wants absolutely nothing to do with Ann Wolfe ... because female boxing has such a small following she has been able to do this with almost no media generated noise but it sure su-ks for Ann ...

    I know I'll catch heat for it but Ali begging Leon Spinks for an immediate rematch to avoid manditory # 1 contender getting a shot at Spinks first comes to mind as Norton was terribly robbed in the third Ali fight and knew Norton would crush Spinks and Ali's third title would never happen ...

    No need to mention my thoughts on J.C.

    Max Schmeling had no problem having Jack Sharkey wait over two years before giving him a rematch despite the terrible way Max won the title...

    What else comes to mind?

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Sonny Liston was ducked by Floyd Patterson (actually his mgr, Cus D'Amato) for 4 years from 58 to '62.

    Archie Moore was also ducked for years he didn't win the light heavy title until he was 39 or so. Jersey Joe was 37 when he won his belt but had, had multipule chances at the title before he won it.

    Sooner or later most matches are made & it's either the money or the champ just can't avoid his challenger anymore.

    GorDoom

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Whether shamelessly or strategically (it's sometimes good to put things off so as to build anticipation, the gate etc) or happenstance; perhaps someone can state definitively whether Barry McGuigan avoided Azumah Nelson to such an extent that Nelson began to refer to Barry as "she"...Also to what extent do certain managers shield and mollycuddle their fighters. Some have had the will power to break off and make the fight...Ray Robinson and Charley Burley?

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    I continue to believe that its overly simplistic to say Dempsey avoided Wills. It is easy to forget that, just 9 years before Dempsey became champion, race riots broke out and people were actually killed as a result of that fight between Jeffries and Johnson. I don't think that's the only reason, but I think the fear of a repeat played a role in the decision to keep Wills away from Dempsey.

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Laila Ali is marketable as all get up- talented, daughter of a boxing legend, and damn beautiful if you ask me...

    But the Martin bout was a total mismatch. Christy gave her 15 years in age, about half a foot in height and reach, and thirty some pounds-even with Martin weighing in wearing BDUs and with coins in her pockets (All six of them, no doubt!). Martin's only chance was to stay inside and get Ali- much larger, younger, taller, ad infinity, to slug close with her. To Ali's credit, she didn't fall for it and managed to look great slaughtering the much older, shorter, smaller, and shop worn Martin. Will Ali accept a possible real challenge from Ann Wolfe? Perhaps not.

    Dempsey-Wills? Dempsey woulda had to have been at his best, but would have probably triumphed over Wills. This one will be debated as long as people are smart enough to remember it. Did Dempsey/Kearns actually avoid Wills based on his level of threat or was it merely an financial decison?

    Regarding Nelson-McGuigan...Hmmm...I'm more Irish American than anything else, and I screamed my friggin' lungs out when Barry beat Pedroza...But I do think that a maturing Azumah woulda handed Barry his ass in the long run. The Nelson that lost to Sanchez would have made a damn fun bout, but adding maturity, Nelson takes Barry...

    Guess I'll now be banned from the next St Paddy's day Parade...

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    RJJ ran like a cheap paint from Dariusz Michalczewski.

    Or did Michalczewski run from Roy?

    I forget. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Bobby Czyz allowed himself to get hit by a car to avoid getting in with Orlin Norris. Or so they say. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    I really have to wonder if Joe Louis couldn't have found one non-blind, younger-than-Christmas Black contender to face during his eleven year reign. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Corro certainly didn't want to have anything to do with Marvelous Marvin, did he? PeteLeo.

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    I know he beat him pre-title in their only meeting, and I know the racial atmosphere of the time wasn't conducive to having two Black men fighting for the championship, but . . . .

    it was going to take a dumptruck to pull Jack Johnson back into the ring with Sam Langford when "Li'l Artha" was the titleholder. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Zale and Graciano surely did effective impressions of Sergeant Shultz ("I know nuzzing!") when Jake LaMotta was knocking on the title door. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Jack Sharkey was all for getting it on with Gene Tunney for the championship, but Gene had prior engagements. PeteLeo.

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    Godfrey shamelessly ducked by Harry Wills

    Harry Wills shamelessly ducked George Godfrey. Baron Dougherty, manager of "Big Gawge," challenged Wills almost daily from 1923 thru 1926. Dougherty offered Wills' management their choice of terms-including "winner take all" and even offered Wills the entire purse (even if he lost).
    Philly promoters Herman Taylor + Bobby Gunnis pursued the match stating that it would easily do a quarter of a million dollars in the Quaker City where Godfrey was a huge box-office attraction.
    Tex Rickard tried to arrange the bout for New York to decide the "leading negro title challenger." Also California promoters were interested because Godfrey had become a terrific drawing card in L.A. and San Francisco. But the Wills management still refused.
    The sports writers pressed the issue but no got no response. Even the dean of America's black sportswriters, Rollo Wilson, claimed that Wills was ducking Godfrey and predicted that if the match could be arranged that Godfrey
    would beat Wills handily as long as George wasn't forced to wear the "handcuffs" that were common knowledge for many of his fights.

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Ironically, by some accounts, Wills ducked Tunney.

  15. #15
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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    dempsey ducked wills, wills ducked tunnuey and bigtime, godfrey, johnson ducked langford--bigtime, tunney looked away from sharkey, louis ducked alot of fellows, and patterson liston, tyson ducked foreman, ali ducked foreman rematch--list goes on, forman ducked quarry etc

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Tunney did not fight one black fighter his entire career. Not Kid Norfalk, not Harry Wills, no one ... I doubt he was scared, just smart ...

    How he fought the "Hard Rock" over Sharkey is a legitimate question ...

    Corro wanted no part of Marvin...luckily Vito and Minter had bigger balls ...

    I've read that Rocky wanted no part of Jake but fighting Zale and Robinson kind of elimate Rocky from being a afraid of anyone ..Jake was a great fighter and would have beaten Rocky like a drum but did not punch like those guys .... imagine fighting that murderous punching Zale three times ... Jeez ...

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    HE: What black fighter do you suggest that Tunney should have fought, and how would that fight have advanced his career?

    You use the word "ducked" with great frequency, and always seem to equate it with the fighter being a somekind of coward. Boxing is a business; and these fighters all had managers whose task was to build up their fighters' careers, get them a title shot, help them keep the title for as long as possible, and make as much money as possible in the process.

    So I ask again, what black fighter would you have had Tunney fight and why if you were Billy Gibson in the 1920s?

    I'll answer the question for you: According to John Lardner, White Hopes and Other Tigers, p. 168, in 1925-1926, Tunney suggested an elimination about between him and Wills, with the winner to fight Dempsey. But Wills manager refused, believing he could force Dempsey to fight Wills without the necessity of going through Tunney. So it made sense for Tunney to fight Wills then, and Tunney's manager tried to make the match.

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Ray, no one has touted boxing as a business more on this board than I have. I've used it regarding Mike Tyson and Roy Jones for years ...
    we're talking specifics here... I did not say Tunney ducked anyone ... I said that he did not fight one black fighter in his entire career. He could have fought Kid Norfalk instead of Greb five times. Are you saying that there were no qualified black fighters that could have deserved a shot at Tunney through out his career?

    To say Wills ducked Tunney is hypocracy since he may have avoided such a fight (if he did at all) based on the same risk/reward mentioned above ... business motivated ...

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Whoa. I didn't say that Wills ducked Tunney. I said "by some accounts, Wills ducked Tunney." I said that Wills failed to fight Tunney for what his manager believed were legitimate business reasons. (It back fired: Dempsey looked past Wills and signed with Tunney. That would have been hard for Jack to do if Wills had taken the Tunney fight and beat Gene.)

    How would fighting Kid Norfolk have advanced Tunney's career, even if he had won? Was there a clamor in the mid-1920s for Tunney to fight Norfolk? I don't recall such a clamor; indeed, I don't recall any sportwriters of the day even suggesting the fight. But there was a clamor for Tunney to mix it with Greb, and they made money all five times.

    The problem for me is this: When you say Tunney didn't fight any black fighters - a true statement, no question - it suggests racist undertones that I don't see in the total context of Tunney's career.

    I am a big fan of James J. Jeffries - everybody on this board knows that I think he was the best fighter of the pre-Dempsey era. But I think it was shameful that he didn't fight Jack Johnson in 1904-1905 when he could have, especially since I think the Jeffires of 1904/05 would have whipped the Johnson of 1904/05, and it would have been a huge draw in California. I understand why he did it in the context of his times - he didn't want to run the risk of being the first white man to lose the heavyweight title to a black man; he didn't want that to be his legacy. But I still think it was a racist reason, and so did some sportswriters of the day. (BTW, I don't think Jeffries was "afraid" of Johnson. I don't think he was afraid of anybody when he was in his prime.)

    But I don't see those racist undertones in the career of Gene Tunney . . . and I'm not even a Tunney fan!! Name for me one black fighter that the fans in the mid-1920s clamored to see Tunney fight.
    Last edited by raylawpc; 09-20-2007 at 12:18 PM.

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Gibbons also actively sought a match with Wills through most of the middle Twenties, only to be answered with a resounding, "No thank you."

    Lennox wanted no part of a rematch with Vitali, while Wlad has hardly been on his soapbox demanding a second meeting with Corrie Sanders, has he?

    Michael Spinks did everything in his power to stay out of Mike Tyson's lair, though he finally realized that that was where the real money awaited him. He looked like a man on his way to the electric chair entering the ring that night.

    Some say Rocky had no interest in facing Nino Valdez (though this has been covered in depth on this very site recently -- so why am I even bringing it up?).

    Leonard actively dodged the Hearns rematch for a long time.

    As stated above, there are more reasons for matches not being made than simple fear of being beaten. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    I think Tunney should have fought Kid Norfalk ... Kid fought Greb twice and got the better of him both times ... there were a few years in the early 1920's when Tunney could have fought him if he was fighting the best fighters in his division.

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Suit yourself.

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Come on fellas, we all know you can't expect to ever become a champ if you never learn how to duck!

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Did Ray Robinson duck Charley Burley? Was Ray quoted accurately saying "I am too pretty to fight Burley" to his manager at ringside watching Burley dismantle a fighter? Just asking. Also, I believed Lennox Lewis ducked Tyson for years until Tyson's skills and training habits were poor.

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    Silk

    I think the Ducking as it pertians to Lewis and Tyson is the other way around.

    In a seperate thread, another poster criticized Lewis for not doing anything when Tyson was in prison.

    I put together this time line discussing WHo Lewis faced, pre-Tyson Prison and post prison and cover Tyson side stepping Lewis on two seperate occasions (as well as Bowe sidestepping Lennox):

    As far as Lewis "not doing anything" when Tyson was in prison.....Um. Is that an accurate statement?

    Mike's last fight was June of 1991 and he was scheduled to face Holyfield in Nov of that same year. He was convicted of rape and went to prison in Feb of 1992. Released in early 1995, his first bout was agianst McNeeley in 95 and he eventually won belts in 1996 and then paid Lennox Lewis $4mill in step aside money so Mike could unify against Bruce Seldon and then of course Mike ultimately get knocked out by Evander Holyfield in Nov of the same year.

    Lewis, turned pro in 1989 following the 88 olympics and in Nov of 91 when Tyson was to have faced Holyfield, Lewis was 17-0 and facing Tyrell Biggs and had already beaten Ocasio, Weaver, McRory and Gary Mason. Solid comp based on where he was in his career.

    On Halloween of 1992, when Mike was in Prison, Lewis took out Rudduck in 2 rounds in what was ORGINALLY a title elimnator bout to face the winner of Holyfield and Bowe, won by Bowe. Bowe opted NOT to face Lewis, dumped his WBC belt and the WBC, as they did with Ken Norton when he beat Jimmy Young in 1977, reatroactively awarded the belt to Lewis, recognizing his bout with Razor as a title fight. So far so good for Lennox while Mike was in prison.

    1993, while Mike was still in Prison, Lewis twice defended his belt agianst Tucker and Bruno. in 1994, while still in prison, Lennox defends successfully agianst Jackson and loses his title to Oliver Mccall.

    Following the loss to MCall, Lewis makes two comeback fights agianst Butler and Fortune and then beats Tommy Morrison in 1995 and Ray Mercer May of 1996 in successive bouts. After the Mercer bout, Lewis was inactive as negotiations were going on re a title fight with Tyson, who not only PAID Lewis to step aside, but he gave up his WBC belt so he would not have to make a mandatory agianst Lewis and he could fight Evander Holyfield. So in essence, Mike sidestepped Lewis TWICE. Once with Money and the second time by giving up the belt.

    I guess I'm curious: What else should Lewis have done? Bowe was not willing to fight him. Tyson sidestepped him twice. Holyfield himself had made a retirement during this time with heart issues(Evander was facing Bowe in 92 and 93 and then was "retired" from April 1994 until May 1995) and when he did come back, he was facing Riddick Bowe (95) and then Tyson (96 and 97).

    Lewis sat by and did nothing while Mike was in prison and then was released?

    Who was he to have fought that he didn't fight or that was unwilling to fight him or in the case of Holyfield, was either retired himself or fighting the two guys who wouldn't fight Lewis?


    Hawk

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    What about Napoles and Loi at Lightweight?.

    While not sure i would say they were shamelessly ducked, they certainly were around long enough to have earned a title shot.

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    I recall Duran issuing an "open challenge" to the lightweight division in 1978 before moving up in weight, and nobody wanted to fight him. Imagine, a champion being avoided by contenders who would have had their biggest paydays against him.

    Didn't Tyson avoid Foreman and Holyfield when Mike was champ? Both were in the top 10 and would have made Mike more money than Douglas or Tubbs, I'd think.

    Holmes, who it's been said fought everybody, never mixed it up with Tate, Coetzee, or Dokes (WBA champs), all 3 of which were good matches compared with the Evangelistas of the world. I think this one had more to do with Don and Carl King.

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    Here's another time line

    You just Knew Holmes was going to come up agian.

    So becuase I am lazy and I have mastered Cutting and Pasting:

    "1982-Had Cooney not needed to postpone the bout from Mar until June, becuase of a shoulder injury, Larry would have EASILY squeezed in one more defense in that year. Possibly a rematch with Trevor Berbick, had Trevor duplicated his victory over Greg Page in Mar as opposed to June.

    1984- Holmes had TWO bouts fall apart becuase of promotional andor injuries or a combination of Both. At the beginning of the year, he was scheduled to have faced John Tate as part of a package deal that would have included Gerrie Coetzee in the late summer. BOTH bouts ended up getting scrapped Tate due to a slight injury that caused a postponement and Coetzee becuase of the promotional mess the bout became. Larry ended up facing BoneCrusher, who was about as hot as his career was going to get after koing Frank Bruno. Holmes Needed a bout. That fight was thrown together in light of the other two failed fights. If everything else in Holmes reign remains static, Larry would have added 3 more successful defenses to his reign going into the first Spinks bout.

    Now what i have asked previously and will do so agian, is for someone to provide a time line as to WHO Holmes should have faced in place of the challengers that he didn't fight? Agian, I heard Tony Tubbs, but when was that to have taken place and how responsible is it to say Holmes DUCKED Tony Tubbs?

    I hear Micheal Dokes. Well following the first Weaver bout in which there was so much controversy, a rematch with Hercules was in order. So you have to push this out to late 1983. Following Dokes' dreadful showing in the rematch, in whihc most saw Weaver winning, where is the outcry for Holmes Dokes? And to wrap that one up, Dokes doesn't even make it through his 2nd defense agiansgt Coetzee.

    Coetzee has been discussed.

    Greg Page? I've gone over this so many times. First off, Page blew a chance when he lost to Trevor Berbick and he lost his bid to take over as the #1 challenger afer Cooney was beaten by Lar. So that set him back. On the undercard of Holmes Witherspoon in 83, page beat Renaldo Snipes. He was then the #1 challenger. WBC rules state that the champ has a year to face the #1 contender. But Page became the mandatory in May of 1983. Holmes Did have a tough go with Witherspoon, but I had Holmes ahead by 2 or 3 points. Tim had his moments, but not nearly enough to win the bout. Following that bout, Larry was offered chicken feed to face Page.

    Holmes in turn was offered nearly three times the amount to have a package deal with Frank and Frazier. Add on top of that, that Coetzee beak Dokes and THAT was the matchup that was being pushed for Holmes, whihc Holmes sought out as well. Then add on top of THAT, Page loses to Witherspoon and THEN he lost to David Bey. So much for PROVING you deserved a shot Greg.

    Pinklon Thomas. What year are we talking about? 1983 he wasn't ready and his performance agianst Coetzee showed that. 1984 was almost a lost year for Holmes becuase of the two failed bout. So you have to look at 1985. Larry begins the year facing David Bey who was hot off of the Page upset. Bey was picked by some to have upset Larry and Bey was also the FIRST choice to have faced Coetzee in South Africa. He said no and landed the bout with HOlmes. Thomas beats a distracted Witherspoon in 1984 and looks like Thomas could be the heir apparent to Holmes. Pikny defends agianst Weaver, gets out jabbed bu ko's the too heavy Weaver and about the same time Holmes BARELY scrapes by Carl Williams. At this point many are saying Thomas could beat Holmes. WHY? Becuase Holmes is CLEARLY on the down side.

    Holmes opts for Spinks in a huge bout to tie Marciano at 49-0. (Holmes was 48-0-0 with 20 defenses, 13 more than Rocky and 5 shy of Louis.). The dual history angle is that Spinks was attempting to become the first Light eavy to win the heavyweight title. It was a big money bout and it did carry less of a risk for Holmes. Larry Lost. He got out hustled by Spinks. Holmes looked dreadful, yet it was a relaitively close bout. But I thought Spinks won it.

    So how does Pinktlon Thomas capitalize on proving himself to be the best heavyweight in the world? He goes and loses to Trevor Berbick. Like Greg Page, way to go Pinky.

    Who else you got? A rematch with Witherspoon? First bout was close, I thought Holmes won. When Timmy went on to beat Page to take Larry's vacant WBC title, he looked out of shape and not nearly as good as the night he faced Holmes. Yet Tim clearly beat Page. How does HE follow up with that performance? Well he get's into money issues with Don King, comes into his bot with Pinklon Thomas CLEARLY unfocused and blinks his title away (You were not getting thumbed you crybaby.). Nice job showing everyone YOU were the real deal Timmy.

    Someone needs to do a time line for Tony Tubbs. I'll never understand that one."


    I've got Time Lines for Why Mike McCallum wasn't ducked and why Robby's avoidance of the Black Murders Row is not altogether accurate as well.

    Could I BE any more lazy?

    Hawk

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    Re: Shamelessly Ducked ....

    Henry Cooper ducked Chuvalo for the British Commonwealth title. Chuvalo even offered to fight him in London.

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    Why Robby is not guilty of avoiding the Black Murderers Row

    Time Line For Robby between Turning Pro and 1952:

    1940 starts career as a Ligtweight in October of 1940. (In Parenthesis are when each fighter turned pro.)

    Cocoa Kid- 10th year as a pro (1930), fighting at Welterweight
    Holman Williams-8th year as a pro (1932) fighting at Welter and slightly above. 1-1-1 with Izzy Jannanzo
    Jack Chase-turned pro in1936 fighting at Middlweight. Inactive in 38, 39 and 40.
    Charley Burley- 4th year as a pro (1936)-fighting at Middleweight. Lost to Bivins in Jimmy’s first year as a pro.
    Lloyd Marshall –4th year as a pro(1936), fighting at and above Middleweight limit.
    Ezzard Charles- Began Pro Career in March as a Middleweight.
    Archie Moore-4th year (1936) as a pro fighting at Middlweight
    Jimmy Bivins-Began pro Career in January as a Middlweight
    Bert Lytell-Didn’t turn pro until 1944
    Aaron TIGER Wade –5th year as a pro Figgting at welter and Middle
    Kid Tunero-11th year as a pro (1929), fighting at Middlweight
    Joe Carter-Didn’t trun pro until 1942
    Eddie Booker- 5th year as a pro (1935), fighting at Middlweihgt.

    1941- Sammy Angott, Marty Servo and Fritzie Zivic (The same Zivic who won the Welterweight crown From Armstrong in the main event on Ray’s pro debut. A year and 27 days later)

    Cocoa Kid-12-3-1 with 1 ND. Welter and Middleweight. Lost to Izzy Jananzzo for the second time. D with Holman Williams
    Holman Williams-13-1 Wleter and Middle. Wins over Basora and a D with Cocoa Kid
    Jack Chase- Returned after 3 ½ year layoff.
    Charley Burley-8-0 all at middleweight.
    Lloyd Marshall –4-1 all at or above 160
    Ezzard Charles-8-1 all at or over Middleweight limit
    Archie Moore-Middleweight
    Jimmy Bivins-Competing at LH & Heavy
    Bert Lytell- Not a pro yet
    Aaron TIGER Wade –2-2 Welter and Middle
    Kid Tunero-a win over Basora
    Joe Carter-Not yet a pro
    Eddie Booker-went 1-1-1 with Shorty Hogue

    1942- Wins over Zivic again (stops him), Angott again, Servo agian, Lamotta (began Career 5 month’s after Robby’s pro debut in Mar …………1941), Jannazzo Twice,


    Cocoa Kid-13-2 Welter and Middle. Loss to Jackie Wilson and 3 wins over Holman Williams
    Holman Williams-8-5. 3 losses to Burely and 2 to Cocoa Kid as well as a single win over both Burley and Kid
    Jack Chase-Lost to Archie Moore
    Charley Burley-13-4. 3-1 with Holman Williams, Lost to Llyod Marshall. 02 with Ezzard Charles, Ko’d heavyweight Jd Turner, who was ……………………..a .500 pug. All fights were at Middle.
    Lloyd Marshall –7-1 Loss to Booker win over Burley.
    Ezzard Charles-12 fights. All but 1 (one of his two wins over Burley) were over 160 pounds.
    archie moore-Middleweight
    Jimmy Bivins LH & Heavy
    Bert Lytell-Not a pro yet
    Aaron TIGER Wade –10-0 at Middle against moderate comp.
    Kid Tunero-2 losses to Holman Williams and a win over 19 bout Ezzard Charles. Tunero who had been a pro 13 years to Ez’s 2,had ……………….114 bouts under his belt when he faced Charles.
    Joe Carter-turned pro at Middleweight
    Eddie Booker-beat Hogue and Jannazo drew with Archie Moore. All at Middle or slightly above

    1943-Year cut short (Aug) due to Military service. Lost to LaMotta, Jackie Wilson (who holds wins over Cocoa Kid, Ceferino Garcia and Tommy Bell) and a 5’5 1/2 “ faded Henry Armstrong (Ray took the fight to get Hank a decent payday)


    Cocoa Kid-9-3-1 A draw Burley and a loss to second year pro Joe Carter.
    Holman Williams-11-3-0 with 1 NC. 2 Wins over 2nd year pro Carter and wins over Booker and Belloise. Loses to Tunero, Basora and ……………………………Cocoa Kid
    Jack Chase- Went 1-0-1 with Lloyd Marshall, 1-2 with Archie Moore, beat Eddie Booker and Aaron Wade, lost to Burley.
    Charley Burley-4-0-1 with 1 NC Drew with Cocoa Kid and NC with Williams. Beat wade and Chase.
    Lloyd Marshall – 8-3-1 all at middle or LH. Wins over Charles, Losses to Bivins, Chase and Williams
    Ezzard Charles-0-2 Losses to Bivins and Marshall at Lightheavy (served in military until 46’)
    archie moore-Middleweight
    Jimmy Bivins LH & Heavy
    Bert Lytell-Not a pro yet
    Aaron TIGER Wade –7-2 Losses to Burley and Chase and a Win over Archie Moore at Middle. Caught Moore on the right night.
    Kid Tunero-Antother win over Williams at Middle.
    Joe Carter-2nd year pro. Lost to Williams, Beat slowing down Cocoa kid.
    Eddie Booker-Lost to Chase and Willams. Ko’d Harry kid Matthews . Fighting over the Middleweight limit.

    1944 (Discharged from the military.) First bout in 14 months was against Janannzo again.


    Cocoa Kid-2-1-1 1NC. Discharged from Military D with Williams and a Loss to Wade. Beginning of the end.
    Holman Williams- 14-2-3 wins over Marshall, Basora, Tunero and 2 over Chase. Draws with Carter, Basora and Kid, Losses to Booker and ……………………………..Marshall
    Jack Chase-19 fights Middle or above, Lost 9 , 4 times to Holman Williams, to Burley, Cocoa Kid and Lloyd Marshall . beat and drew …………………………………with Wade.
    Charley Burley-8-0 wins over Chase, Wade and his big win over Archie Moore.
    Lloyd Marshall –11-1. Loss to Williams. Wins over Lamotta, Williams, Maxim, Chase and Carter. All at Middle or LH.
    Ezzard Charles-Military duty
    archie moore-Middle Lihgt Heavy. Lost Burley, Chase, Wade and Booker
    Jimmy Bivins-Heavy
    Bert Lytell-Pro debut at Middleweight
    Aaron TIGER Wade –2-4-1. The wheels start coming off. Losses to Burley, Chase, Willams and Carter and a draw against Chase. Win …………………….Cocoa Kid who was beginning his slide as well.
    Kid Tunero- and L at Middle to Williams.
    Joe Carter—Lost twice to Lloyd Marshall, beat Aaaron Wade, Drew with Williams and beat Cocoa Kid
    Eddie Booker-fighting at LH. KO’d Archie Moore and Decisioned Holman Williams. Retired in 44 due to EYE issues.

    1945- Tommy Bell, George Costner, Lamotta again, a Draw with Basora (very close bout) and a win over Lamotta again

    (Jose Basora began his career in 1939 fighting at both Welterweight and Middleweight. In 45, he was a full fledged Middle. Basora held a win over Lamotta and held him to a draw when Jose had roughly 40 bouts under his belt and Lamotta had been a pro for a year and 2 and 3 mos. Respectively. Other than Lamotta, with whom Ray had a profitable rivalry with, Ray was not consistently facing middleweights by 1945. After the Basora bout, you saw Robby taking on more middleweights while at the same time angling for a shot at the Welterweight crown.)


    Cocoa Kid-6-6 with 1 NC. Ko’d by Archie Moore, 2-3 with Carter. 1-1 with Willams
    Holman Williams-15-2-1 fghting at Middle and Light heavy. Wins over Moore, Carter, Kid, Lytell and Burley. Losses to Moore and Kid
    Jack Chase-1-3
    Charley Burley-6-1. Loss to Willams wins over Wade and Carter
    Lloyd Marshall – 5-2 Now campaigning exclusively at Light heavy. Two losses to Moore.
    Ezzard Charles-Military duty
    archie moore-Light heavy. Lost to Willams and Bivins who was already at Heavyweight.
    Jimmy Bivins-Heavy
    Bert Lytell 2nd Year as a pro.lost to Lamotta at Middle. Lost and drew with Williams
    Aaron TIGER Wade –3-1 Loss to Burley and a win over 2nd year pro Lytell
    Kid Tunero-no significant fights
    Joe Carter- went 1-2 with Cocoa Kid, lost to Wilams and Burely.
    Eddie Booker-retired

    1946- Angott again, Janannzo again, Levine and FINALLY a shot at the welterweight crown where Servo BLATANTLY avoided Ray and vacated the title. Ray decisioned Tommy Bell to win the vacant crown. Not sure how FINALLY getting a title shot is “taking steps backwards”, but…….


    Cocoa Kid-4-3, 2 losses to Lytell.
    Holman Williams-7-4. Loses to Lamotta, Baroudi, Cerdan and Lytell. Win over 2nd year pro Satterfield
    Jack Chase-5-2 against soft opp at lightheavy outside of a Draw with Archie Moore.
    Charley Burley-5-0 win over Lytell
    Lloyd Marshall –1-2 KO’d by Charles LH
    Ezzard Charles-returned from military duty. All future fights are at LH or above.
    archie moore-LH-lost to Charles
    Jimmy Bivins-heavy
    Bert Lytell- beats faded versions of Williams and Cocoa Kid Loses to Burley
    Aaron TIGER Wade 0-1 Loss to Williams by Ko that set off short retirement.
    Kid Tunero-no significant bouts
    Joe Carter-didn’t fight.
    Eddie Booker-Retired

    1947-Georgie Abrams, Defenses against Chuck Taylor and Jimmy Doyle and a non title bout against Jackie Wilson.


    Cocoa Kid-6-5 A complete shell.
    Holman Williams -3-4-1. Clearly past his prime now. Losses to Brimm and Basora.
    Jack Chase- 0-3-0 1 NC. Ko’s by Archie Moore at Light heavy
    Charley Burley-1-1 Loss to Lytell
    Lloyd Marshall 1-2 Ko’d again by Charles. LH
    Ezzard Charles-LH & Heavy
    archie moore-LH & Heavy lost to Charles
    Jimmy Bivins-Heavy
    Bert Lytell-11-1 lost to Moore. Beats fading Burley.
    Aaron TIGER Wade –return in late 47 and goes 1-2. Retires for next three years
    Kid Tunero-no significant bouts 4 losses 1 to Cyrille Delannoit
    Joe Carter 0-1 retired
    Eddie Booker-retired

    1948-Defense against Docusen. Non title win over Brimm. (let’s remember, Brimm did hold a win over that stiff Holman Williams a year earlier) and a win over the some-how “overrated” Kid Gavilan. A step back I suppose?

    Cocoa Kid- 0-1. retired.
    Holman Williams 0-2 ko’d by Basora retired.
    Jack Chase-retired while fighting at Lightheavy.
    Charley Burley-1-0
    Lloyd Marshall –2-0
    Ezzard Charles-LH & Heavy
    archie mooreLh & Heavy. Lost to Charles
    Jimmy Bivins-Heavy
    Bert Lytell-12-2-1 win over Basora
    Aaron TIGER Wade -retired
    Kid Tunero- 1 loss, 1 drw and he retired
    Joe Carter-retired
    Eddie Booker-retired

    1949- A close bout Draw with Brimm (fighters do have off nights or how else do we explain all of the losses suffered by the Murder’s row fighters?) Non title win over Belloise, A defense against that “stiff” Kid Gavilan.


    Cocoa Kid-Retired
    Holman Williams –retired
    Jack Chase-retired
    Charley Burley-1-1
    Lloyd Marshall –3-3 Ko’d by Bob Murphy. LH
    Ezzard Charles-Heavy
    archie moore- LH & Heavy
    Jimmy Bivins-Heavy
    Bert Lytell-7-5-2 over Middleweight limit bouts Lost to Harold Johnson
    Aaron TIGER Wade-retired
    Kid Tunero-retired
    Joe Carter-retired
    Eddie Booker-retired

    1950 -Easy Ko over comebacking Aaron Wade, (who in truth had been a pretty much shot fighter the last 3 years of his career before retiring in 47. His only significant win was over an equally shot Cocoa Kid.), easy Ko over Costner again, , Defense over Charlie Fusari, Wins Penn State Middle title with win over Villemain, defense of that title with easy ko over Basora, which put the “shot” stamp on him. A Ko of Bobo Olsen, another win over Villemain via KO and the Van Dam body blow.

    Cocoa Kid-Retired
    Holman Williams retired
    Jack Chase-retired
    Charley Burley-3-0 retired
    Lloyd Marshall –5-3-1. Fighting at LH and heavy. Ko’d by Cockell
    Ezzard Charles-Heavy
    archie moore LH & Heavy
    Jimmy Bivins-heavy
    Bert Lytell –3-3 1 NC Loss to Moore Over middleweight limit fights
    Aaron TIGER Wade –Ko’d by SRR. retired
    Kid Tunero-retired
    Joe Carter-retired
    Eddie Booker-retired

    1951-Wins World Middleweight title form Jake Lamotta, Holly Mims, The European tour, a loss to Turpin (clearly Robby took him light and it cost him the win.) Return bout 2 months later, Ray Ko’d him in 10.

    Cocoa Kid-Retired
    Holman Williams-retired
    Jack Chase-retired
    Charley Burley-retired
    Lloyd Marshall –0-3 ko’d in each bout. One bout at LH against Olson, in which he was ko’d in 5. Retired
    Ezzard Charles-Heavy
    archie moore LH & Heavy
    Jimmy Bivins-Heavy
    Bert Lytell-2-1 LH retired.
    Aaron TIGER Wade -retired
    Kid Tunero-retired
    Joe Carter-retired
    Eddie Booker-retired

    1952 –Defense against Bobo Olson, 3rd round ko over former champ Graziano, and the Maxim loss at 175. Ray retired for 2 and ½ years following that loss.

    Cocoa Kid-Retired
    Holman Williams-retired
    Jack Chase-Retired
    Charley Burley-retired
    Lloyd Marshall -retired
    Ezzard Charles-Heavy
    archie moore Light heavy and Heavy Beats Maxim one bout removed form Robinson losing to Maxim.
    Jimmy Bivins-Heavy
    Bert Lytell-Retired
    Aaron TIGER Wade- retired
    Kid Tunero-retired
    Joe Carter-retired
    Eddie Booker-retired

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