Monzon/Valdez: What a shot !!!

[HE Grant]

I really do not know that much about Valdez as he was fading out just as I was starting to follow the game but I always knew about his two bouts with an older Monzon. I knew he then briefly held the title and lost to Corro...that's about it. I have learned here that he was actually considered a huge puncher at middleweight, something I did not know as I often saw him as a small middleweight.

After so long I have finally had the opportunity to see the second round knockdown of Monzon and have to say if Valdez was the puncher they say he was, Monzon had a chin of iron. He was tagged half a dozen times in that round flush before the knockdown and barely blinked. Then , the knockdown!!! Talk about a tremendous flush shot. Monzon bounced up in a fraction of a second and looked strong as an ox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68fgB7VMQ3o

I remain amazed at how tough Monzon was ... a few middleweights may have hung with him, a few may have decisioned him (very few) but this guy was as tough as they came.

[walshb]

The more I watch Carlos the more I believe Marvin, Robbie, Jones and Toney would beat him. The shot was good, but hardly massive. He did have an iron chin and was great fighter. Hagler at his peak I think is too much and beats Monzon. Good clip HE Grant...

[Ted Spoon]

You can't under-estimate the significance of that shot; Monzon waked into a sharply angled, right-handed haymaker. It was your classic lights out blow, but for Monzon it was his wake-up call. He did so well to take that punch, but his unfazed reaction boggles the mind.

A chin of iron indeed.

[Elwill7847]

I think Monzon beats Jones, Toney and Hagler. I also think he's life and death w/Robinson....I'll lean slightly to Sugar Ray but wouldnt be suprised if Monzon beat him at 160. At 147 SRR is the best PFP...at 160 he wasnt the same fighter.

[HE Grant]

Monzon / Hagler would have been a war ... a brutal fight ... both heavy punchers, both iron chins ... the prime Hagler was faster and more versitile but Monzon was bigger and had the better stamina and I believe confidence. I know it's hard to substanciate the following statement without the footage but from all I've read (and it's a ton) the guy I like over Monzon would be Greb. Greb's combination of speed, stamina and iron chin would out point Carlos. I also like a prime Roy Jones although now that we know about his chin it appears any fighter was one good shot away.

[SageBrush]

If Confirmation was needed as to the quality of Rodrigo's punching power should he catch you right ...Ask Mr. Briscoe, the only Time Bad Bennie failed to Finish as i recall.

[hawk5ins]

I hear names like Robinson, Greb, Monzon and Hagler and then the name James Toney get's thrown into the mix, the ONLY thing I can think of is the game of "What name doesn't belong in this group"?

Hawk

[walshb]

Yes, Toney is on MY list Hawk...
I know I'm in the minority, but
that's my perogative.

I can think of others like Nunn and Hopkins as
possible tough tough fights for Monzon.

Anyone got any others??

[walshb]

Apparently the 168lb limit came about in the 80's, as pointed out by a POSTER
on another thread. It's a weight I feel Monzon would really have excelled in. Monzon was a very big Middle and maybe 168lbs would have saw an even more impressive Monzon. I would have loved to see him fight guys like Jones and Toney and Benn and Eubank and dare I say Calzaghe at this weight.
Throw Hagler into the equation and it makes for some real tasty matches...
We could also throw Nunn and McClellan in as well......

Who comes out on TOP at peak?

[Julian Jackson]

I agree Hawk5ins. At middleweight, Toney was certainly no hall of famer, and could not have hung with Monzon. Now admitedly this is an older, slower, Monzon against Valdez so he is not exactly in his prime. But all I can say is that had that punch by Valdez landed on Roy Jones Junior's chin like that the crowd would have already gone home before he woke up.

[walshb]

I agree Hawk5ins. At middleweight, Toney was certainly no hall of famer, and could not have hung with Monzon. Now admitedly this is an older, slower, Monzon against Valdez so he is not exactly in his prime. But all I can say is that had that punch by Valdez landed on Roy Jones Junior's chin like that the crowd would have already gone home before he woke up.

I disagree. He may not beat, but I think he gives a good account. It certainly goes the distance as Toney definitely proved he could take a punch and recover. Great chin and a great puncher...And who knows, If James lands what he landed on Nunn in rd 11. IMO that shot was a lot better than what Valdez landed......

[hawk5ins]

Not for nothing Walsh, but Micheal Nunn's Chin and Carlos Monzon's Chin?

Great Chin. Carlos Monzon. Micheal Nunn.

Same Game. Whihc doesn't belong?

Hawk

[walshb]

No doubt Carlos had one hell of a chin. But all I said was that
I thought Toney's 'KO' shot landed on Nunn was a better punch than
what Valdez landed on Carlos. Should Toney land that shot on Carlos, then
possibly Carlos takes it better than Nunn. It's not a given, however.
Carlos' chin IMO was superior to Nunn's. But Nunn had a decent chin.
When comparing Chins of fighters, it's very difficult, because you
have to take into account the opponents landing the shots.


Basically Toney gives a very good account if he meets Carlos at 160 and certainly he gives a good account at his best at 168lbs. Who wins?, I think Toney. I'm in the minority.

Oh and before the onslaught, let me make it clear, Nunn took the punch, but the effects of it were too much and he was TKO'd....Carlos may take it better, but it still IMO will do more damage than Valdez' shot...Carlos won't bounce back up as quick or recover as quick. In facing Toney, Carlos is in against a much more capable and dangerous fighter, in every way!!!

[hawk5ins]

But Nunn does NOT have a very solid beard.

The shot by Toney LOOKED dramatic in the manner Nunn went down. And the fact that he left himself RIDICULOUSLY wide open

The thing is, He got back up.

I think that knockdown had more to do with Nunn's chin than the actual power of that punch.

Valdes's power was a proven commodity. Monzon's chin was a proven commodity.

I just see absolutely NO comparison between the effects of a James Toney Punch on a Micheal Nunn Chin and those of a Rodrigo Valdes punch agianst a Calrlos Monzon Chin.

Again, because I like games so much:

Sugar Ray Robinson Knock out of Gene Fullmer

Rodrigo Valdes Knock down of Carlos Monzon.

James Toney Right Hand knock down of Micheal Nunn.

Which one doesn't fit?

Hawk

[walshb]

Hawk, I'm sorry....I love that Toney punch.
To me, it's one of the best shots I have seen and maybe it
did look more devestating than it was. But it was a mighty wallop and
all credit to Nunn for getting up, albeit he was out on his feet..
It was thrown from a southpaw stance, which made it look
even better. Left hook by an orthodox fighter from
a southpaw stance...priceless

[raylawpc]

Sugar Ray Robinson Knock out of Gene Fullmer

Rodrigo Valdes Knock down of Carlos Monzon.

James Toney Right Hand knock down of Micheal Nunn.

Which one doesn't fit?

Hawk

I don't know. I thought it was a pretty good punch. I wouldn't put it in my all-time pantheon of great punches, but it was a pretty good shot.

[hawk5ins]

And I'm not trying to be a wise** here (although, for me that is admittedly a tough thing to do.), I just don't see that punch fitting in with the likes os Valdes and Monzon.

I look at Toney Nunn and All I can think of as a parrallel, is Pazienza Rosenblatt.

Vinnie a moderate puncher in any weight he has ever resided in, throwing a roundhouse "Dramatic LOOKING" punch, that explodes off of the chin of.....Dana Rosenblatt, which drops him, turns the fight around and eventually is the major contributing factor in the fight being stopped.

It LOOKED neat. But comparing it in the grand scheme of it's contemporary punches and kos.......it just doesn't hold up when factoring in everything (the punch and the chin) involved.

Hawk

[hawk5ins]

I agree it was a great looking Ko.

But it was theorized that if the punch that landed on Nunn had landed on Monzon....

"Great chin and a great puncher...And who knows, If James lands what he landed on Nunn in rd 11. IMO that shot was a lot better than what Valdez landed......"

Well IMO, I don't think a whole lot happens with Monzon.

Let me put it this way:

Mike Weaver KO15 John Tate. Awesome, Dramatic, timeless knockout delivered by Mike Weaver.

But if that punch that Hercules KO'd Tate with, lands on Muhammad Ali, Ali ain't going nowhere.

Comparing the Knockout of Weaver Tate to Joe Frazier Dumping Ali on his ass in the 15th round with a Beautiful Left Hook, is the same Innacurate comparison between Toney Nunn and Valdes Monzon.

Tate and Nunn's chins contributed to these Kodak Moments. Dropping Ali and Monzon, with the chins that had legendary reputations, were truly "moments to remember".

Holy shot. I've reduced myself to a commercial.

Hawk

[walshb]

But Hawk, when I said who knows, I wasn't incorrect was I?
I personally believe that Monzon takes it better.
All I am saying is that it takes more out of him than
the Valdez shot....Nobody knows if Toney's shot would
have taken Monzon or Hagler or Robbie out, but I believe they
would all be very wobbly from it. Again, credit to Nunn for
dragging his ass off the canvas from that shot.

Ah we could go on forever about it. Swings and
roundabouts.....

By the way, any opinions on Monzon V some of the finest
168lbers' ever???

[raylawpc]

Hawk, I just thought it was a pretty good shot. Nice timing by Toney, who set Nunn up for it. And Nunn dropped like the proverbial sack of potatoes. I just like the punch.

[hawk5ins]

I just don't think it does much on Monzon or many of the other Eilite Middle greats chins.

It looked great on Nunn's chin.

No Doubt.

Hawk

[raylawpc]

I just don't think it does much on Monzon or many of the other Eilite Middle greats chins.

Maybe. Who can know for sure?

[walshb]

I don't know....is there a case that no matter how good your chin is, the perfect punch, not necessarily Toney's, will have you out.
Like Julian Jackson's on Herol Graham. Would Hagler have been KO'd from that or Monzon or Toney?

I really can't see how anyone can say that Jackson's shot, as in it's force and power was greater than Toney's. Both landed dead flush and with devestating consequences. Is there really a huge difference between Nunn's chin and Haglers? Is there such a difference, to the extent, that the Toney shot is shaken off quite quickly by Hagler and Monzon.

I really believe there is a small difference between chins and a lot has to do with physical conditioning and stamina...

It's an interesting question I think...

[hawk5ins]

One can never be sure or Certain, which is why I said "I think".

But we can make reasonable conclusions based on the information we have as it pertains to the Puncher and the Punchee.

One of the analogies I made to Toney Nunn was Pazienza Rosenblatt. A dramatic, devastating Knockdown.

Now I don't know for CERTAIN, that that punch Vinnie landes on Dana would bounce harmlessly off of the mugs of Monzon, Lamotta, Hagler and Greb........But I have a pretty good idea that that would be the case.

Hawk

[walshb]

By the way the Jackson analogy is just an example. I know nobody has said a thing about it....I'm just using it as a comparison in my THEORY!!!!

[walshb]

I don't know for certain if PAZ hits harder than Toney (single shot), but I'm betting heavily he DOES not.....

[hawk5ins]

at a level playing field as far as Chin and punches are concerned?

"I really can't see how anyone can say that Jackson's shot, as in it's force and power was greater than Toney's. Both landed dead flush and with devestating consequences. Is there really a huge difference between Nunn's chin and Haglers? Is there such a difference, to the extent, that the Toney shot is shaken off quite quickly by Hagler and Monzon."

Surely there have been fights and examples of punches and punches recieved that would lead us to conclusions that certain fighters have a greater punch than another and that others still, have a proven, superior chin to others.

Is there a necessity in having to prove out Hagler's beard by listing the punches he took and from the punchers that landed them?

Would we then have to go about proving the punching prowress of each puncher? Will it be necessary to go and prove Juhn Mugabi's power by Proving Curtis Parker's chin by proving Wilfred Scypion's power and so on and so on?

And by the same token, is it necessary to discuss Nunn's chin by discussing Carl Jones's punch and so on there?

I'm almost to the point of responding with "if you gotta ask, you'll never know".

Is there really a huge difference between Nunn's chin and Haglers?

Yes. Yes. A Thousand times......Yes.

Hawk

[HE Grant]

First of all if we are talking iron chins, Toney is in ... Maybe Valdez ca n punch but Toney has taken shots from Rachman and Peter ... that's the difference between a hand grenade and a nuke ...

Secondly, Toney is exactly the crafty, smart fast fighter that may very well have decisioned Monzon. That's if he was in top shape, always a HUGE if ...

[starlingstomp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFjQAgLDQ1w

The middleweight Toney sure couldn't have taken shots from them.

[PeteLeo]

Good point. And that wasn't the only time Toney was hurt in that match, either (I regard the decision as a bit of a gift -- and I was pulling for James).

In all honesty, Toney's reign at middle was fairly undistinguished, at super-middle it was quite short, and at cruiser he never defended at all (did he?). Prior to the Jirov match (which James was "supposed" to lose on size alone), in fact, Toney was widely seen as a good but unexceptional fighter who probably had wasted much of his career due to conditioning issues. Once he squeaked by Jirov and showed that he could protect his chin from a number of slow, fat heavies, bingo! He was suddenly an "old-school" icon and sure bet for the HOF. Sorry, but I don't see it. I doubt that I could rate old James a top twenty performer at any of the classes he's fought in.

But that's just me. PeteLeo.