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Thread: Taylor-Pavlik Predictions, Result, and Discussion 9/29/07

  1. #121
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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    I think Pavlik was just too big and strong for Taylor.I knew Pavlik could hurt Taylor when in the 1st rd.,Pavlik threw a short hook on the inside,and hurt Talor .I beleive Taylor was complaining about a rabbit punch to the ref.That stunning jab that Pavlik threw was a key to victory in my opinion.Taylor was getting bullyed on the inside .Pavlik was sneaing punches in while being tied up and to my surprise Taylor wasnt doing anything about it.Pavlik was ahead on my cards,dont know what these judges were watching?

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    The stoppage turned out to be OK because Taylor did not get up, I understand that.

    The position the referee immediately put himself in by jumping in, standing and pinning Taylor to the floor could have turned out to be a bad mistake if he tried to rise.

    Steve Smoger stopped it very fast and it turned out to be ok. Yet he could not have known for sure if Taylor could suck it up and arise, that is all I am saying, if you watch the film again.

    If he started counting and it looked like the man was hurt and could not arise at 3 or 4 then stop it quickly, or if it is a KO like Tuv V Ruiz, then stop it immediately. Taylor was very strong before this happened so fast, and no one has a crystal ball to see how a fighter will react.

    Taylor went down, Smoger jumped in and stopped it immediately by standing over him. All's well that ends well, no problem, stoppage turns out to be ok, but not the right move as opposed to stepping back, let the crowd see him, take a look a while counting and give him a second or two chance as the title is on the line.

    Yet I have seen guys go down in a heap, e.g. like Jacobs in the last round against Whitiker, if I stood over him and prevented him from rising, he never would have made it to his feet to lose by a decision.

    Richared Steele can explain all he wants for the next two decades but he stopped Taylor V Chavez in a bad bad way. This was different and turned out ok which I am glad for, but step back, wait a second before stopping it in a millisecond while standing over a guy who just might try to get up.

    Thats all I'm saying.

    Thanks,
    Ron

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    I don't think Ron said that Smoger jumped in too soon. What I understood was Taylor wasn't given the opportunity to get up. Smoger stopped the fight instead of starting a count. I dont think Taylor would have gotten up, so it ended up allright.
    I agree with Ron
    Just my opinion

    Randy

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    Not to take anything away from Pav or even Taylor and maybe it's just me but didn't HBO and the team last night, from the announcers (very little) to the post fght ring announcer sound a little overjoyed that a white guy, and a white American at that, won the title in such a dramatic way? I mean from the claim of "one of the greatest middleweight fight's in history" to Merchant spending what felt like 15 minutes interviewing Pav postfight just seemed a bit over the top to me. I just don't feel Cory Spinks would have gotten the same attention.

    I know all about the business side of the game and the right to go for it and I even can accept a white audience cheering for a white fighter just as blacks, asians, hispanics all do for their own, ect ... I'm just saying that the brass at HBO must have woken up with huge dollar side erections this morning ...

    It will be interesting to see how the marketing and match ups for Pav developes from this point... I doubt he will be thrown to the lions like Taylor was, fighting every top guy all in a row ...

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    >>>Do bass only come out at night? PeteLeo.<<<

    No, but the bigger ones are caught in the fall. Though night fishing is very productive!


    Now about the Pavlik-Taylor! I just watched the replay and it was a great fight. The judges again showed me that boxing needs a whole new group of boxing judges as they must have not been watching the fight!

    It was a great fight, but it was not right behind Hagler-Hearns as one of the greatest...it was not equal to the Zale-Graziano trilogy either, but it was a great fight none the less…certainly one of the best fifty middleweight title bouts and quite possibly one of the twenty best!

    A rematch at 166 will benefit Pavlik in my view and I believe that Pavlik will stop Taylor within five rounds at a higher weight. That is unless Taylor fights a purely tactical, defensive fight, then he may be able to last the distance. But then again, if he fights a purely defensive fight without throwing a lot of punches then Pavlik will just overwhelm him with all of the shots that Pavlik throws, but all-in-all the higher weight will be more to Pavlik's advantage in my opinion!

    I would like to see Pavlik tighten up his defense, which if he can do that then he will likely hold the title for a number of years, or until he outgrows the division, which probably is not far off. Pavli will be a very strong super middleweight as well and right now he could very likely beat both Calzaghe and Kessler.

    One thing for certain, I do not think that Pavlik will be a cheese champ! I think he will consistently fight tough opposition and I believe that he will consistently win and win impressively for several years to come as he is only 25 years old, so he certainly has time to improve.

    A good friend of mine lives near Youngstown, so if Pavlik has some defenses of the title in, or near Youngstown I'll be ringside!

    I think Pavlik can really boost boxing in a similar manner to the way Oscar De La Hoya has...as long as he continues to fight and win impressively...though I honestly do not think that Pavlik knows how to be a dull fighter!

  6. #126
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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    Just watch the fight again and kept score, at the end of six rounds I had Taylor wining the fight by a score of 58 to 55.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    I had Taylor ahead also.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    I think Pavlik's opponents generally fall into the same category: guys who expect the lanky kid to tire late. Even though he has a lot of early KOs, from what I've seen the champ is a pretty decent distance man, grinding away round after round with his unspectacular but effective offense until the other man just can't keep up anymore.

    In the five or six times Pavlik has been down, most have come in the first couple of rounds (round two appears particularly precipitous for Kelly), with the KD to McCart occurring latest, in the fourth or so. Looks to me that if you're going to beat him, go for it early. Once he gets into his rhythm, he's a "Terminator"-like monster. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    At the post-fight press conference Jermain Taylor said he thought he was losing the fight going into the 7th round. I had the fight 3 to 3 going into the seventh with Taylor up by a point. Lou DiBella and Emanuel Steward said Steve Smoger did a good job. Jermain Taylor did not complain about the stoppage.

    Great action fight.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    I doubt that Taylor even remembers the ending. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    I hope they don't match him up with Calzege too quickly because unlike Taylor he has great stamina himself and would slap Pav around for the most part at this point ...

    I will be very honest here...when Taylor pounded the sh-t out of Pav in round 2 I was screaming out loud, here's another Gerry Cooney ... the fact thaqt he survived and came back makes all the difference in the world because let's face it, most fighters would not have been able to come back .. Taylor was throwing bombs there ...

    What impressed me the most last night was how Pav kept coming on when the fight looked like it was pulling away fom him in the middle rounds ... he kept at it and just like in HBO's promo's, he kept coming and had tremendous power to really flatten Taylor. I think it was one of the most crushing KO's I've seen under this sort of circumstances in a long while...not a Roy Jones or a Lennox Lewis out with a shot but a series of murderous shots ... I really do not think Taylor will ever be the same ... He really trained with it all for this fight and got flattened ...

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    After six rounds, I had Taylor ahead 57-56. All of the rounds except for the second were very closely contested. Going into the seventh it was anybody's fight.

    In my book, Taylor won the fifth and six rounds because of his superior counterpunching. But Pavlik never, ever stopped storming forward in these rounds, and I thought I sensed that Taylor was getting confused and discouraged about how to handle Kelly's tank-like aggression.

    The seventh round ending was incredibly dramatic...flashing, devastating, and sudden. For the entire round the two fought on nearly even terms, then suddenly Taylor crumpled to the deck after absorbing a brutal fight-ending combination from Pavlik.

    Just like in the Miranda fight, it was Pavlik's intense, non-stop forward movement that made all the difference. Pavlik's strength and mental intensity are remarkable.

    Lennox Lewis said that Taylor would have done better if he had reacted to Pavlik's monster-like aggression by side-stepping after taking two steps back. Lennox is probably correct. But given Pavlik's capacity to end the bout with a single punch at any juncture, there's no telling how the fight would have turned out no matter how intelligently Taylor had moved and countered.

    Pavlik reminds me of Danny "Little Red" Lopez and Matthew Saad Muhammad in terms of style. In some ways, Pavlik also reminded me of Mike Spinks. Like Spinks, Pavlik is a tall guy with a lethal right hand who likes to mix it up on the inside and who could end the fight with a single right hand at any point. Remember the "Spinks Jinx"?

    I scored the rounds as follows:

    1. Pavlik
    2. Taylor (extra point for the knockdown)
    3 Pavlik
    4. Pavlik
    5. Taylor
    6. Taylor

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    I take my hat off to HBO, as they put on a very interesting and action packed card last night, and even the losers of last nights bouts walked away winners in my book as they showed heart and guts galore before getting taken out. Now to the fight itself, I was shocked to see Pavlik put his hands down and getting nailed the way he did after he got hurt by that punch behind the ear which let to the eventual knockdown a few moments later.

    He did well to survive though as he held on and did what he had to do to buy some time to clear his head, and his conditioning was clearly excellent as a lesser conditioned fighter may well have been stopped in that round. What I cannot understand however for the life of me is why Taylor never got rough and tried to fight out of Kelly`s attempts at clinching in the second round after hurting his man. He should have pushed him off, hit him to the body and back of the head, do anything and everything to keep hitting your man while he is hurt... but Taylor seemed content to hold on to Kelly instead and let him off the hook.

    This may well have cost him a golden opportunity to end matters early and in impressive fashion, but it is clear that Pavlik was by far and away the more intelligent fighter of the two as he did what he had to do when hurt to clear his head by holding on, whereas Taylor as usual backed himself into a corner when he got hurt and this time it cost him against a big puncher in Pavlik who finished him off. Pavlik was clealy the smarter fighter of the two, and he regrouped very well in the 3rd round which he won in my opinion, and he kept walking his man down landing shots that while they may not have looked hurtful, were taking a toll on Taylor.

    When all is said and done when Pavlik had his man hurt he finished the job in impressive fashion while Taylor let his man off the hook by being content to hold instead of punching. I was very impressed with Kelly`s jab as well as he repeatadly kept backing Taylor up with it, and landed it consistantly while also going to the body whenever the opportunity presented itself. Mr.Baltazar mentioned that Pavlik reminds him of Danny Lopez which is a great comparison IMO.

    Like Danny, Pavlik is vulnerable to knockdowns early on before he gets into his groove, and like Danny he throws a steady barrage of jabs/right crosses while going to the body as well to wear his man down. Both men have the utmost confidence in their ability to track down their foe and eventually stop them, and they have the stamina to keep up a high pace from the first bell to the last while carrying their power with them throughout a fight. If Pavlik turns out to be half as exciting as Little Red was, we can look forward to quite a few more memorable bouts from him.

    Kelly does have some glaring flaws however and he really needs to tighten up his defence a bit, but with his intangibles and power he can end a fight at a moment`s notice and will make any fighter wary off walking in recklessly to try and finish him. It will take a fighter with lots of lateral movement, good handspeed and a excellent chin to beat Pavlik, much like Sanchez when he beat Lopez. But I don`t see anyone like that out there on the horizon for Pavlik to worry about, and I expect him to have a nice run as champ before eventually moving up in weight. Either way, lets all enjoy a new middleweight era with a fighter who comes to fight and comes to win and is prepared to do both each time out in Kelly Pavlik.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    HE Grant I think a lot of guys go into fights thinking Pavlik is just another Cooney. Which works to his advantage. The fact that the guy doesn't look that spectacular adds to this, but watch his hands when he fights he blocks a lot of shots with his gloves. He has good technique even thought it doesn't look real sooth, the more I think about it the more he reminds me of Foreman.

    I almost feel like because he is white people think he is overrated but really there are a lot of white guys that can fight now a days. The days of the Chuck Wepner are over. The obviously biased thoery that white guys are some how only a product of hype should be long forgotten.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    Let's be fair to Cooney here.

    He had a vastly superior fighter to overcome in Larry Holmes and he did suck it up after getting hurt.I'd wager that Gerry might have found it a bit easier to get back into that fight had he a jermaine Taylor in front of him.

    Does anyone really think that had Pavlik been in with a Holmes level middle he wouldn't have had been thoroughly outclassed and possibly brutally knocked out?.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    I had Pavlik ahead 57-56 (4-2 in rounds).

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    Ron: Taylor was LIMP on the way down. Smoger was jumping in to stop it before he hit the deck. The kid was OUT...you could really see his legs go jelly from where I was sitting.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    I'd like to hear what john Duddy thinks about fighting Pavlik, if Camaps landed that often on Duddy - Pavlik should have it all over and done with in about 1.40 of the first...

    great fight.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    Quote Originally Posted by doomeddisciple
    I'd like to hear what john Duddy thinks about fighting Pavlik, if Camaps landed that often on Duddy - Pavlik should have it all over and done with in about 1.40 of the first...

    great fight.
    I think this fight would be a very, very bad move for John Duddy. Duddy is easy to hit -- particularly by right hands -- and he would be an easy mark for the powerpunching, aggressive Pavlik.

    Bob Arum is keen on making Pavlik-Duddy. If Duddy's managers are wise, they will reject "Honest Bob's" offer and select a lighter hitting champion for Duddy to challenge.

    Pavlik is all wrong for Duddy...Duddy's people should be looking at anyone but Pavlik.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    Pavlik will be brought up on murder charges for Duddy, why not just throw him in there with Gatti for christ sakes.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    Thanks Cliff,

    I go by what you say as you were right there. I know better than anyone that the ref sees things others don't more clearly.

    I just did not like the way he seemed to stop it so damn fast and then stood over him in case he snapped out of it and tried to rise. No problem.

    Steve is very very very very lucky to get these assignments in NY and NJ despite some behind the scenes stuff best left unsaid.

    best always,
    Ron

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    Does anyone know what weight both guys entered the ring at ?

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas44
    Does anyone know what weight both guys entered the ring at ?
    I don't remember exactly, but I know it was between 167 lbs. and 169 lbs. for each fighter. HBO showed the weigh-in and "rehydration" (i.e., actual weight before entering the ring) weights on it's "Tale of the Tape".

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    I agree with HEGrant, Calzaghe is all wrong for Pavlik. That is a prime example of a fighter who could completely undress him.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    I think the only fight at middleweight worth making besides a rematch is Pavlik-Abraham. I actually think Arthur would have a solid chance at the upset there.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    Better late than never...my observations on Sat. night:

    I think what Pavlik exposed may have been weakness in Taylor's chin and heart. First major fight against a guy who could punch with him and he crumbled. All the Manny Stewards in the world can't fix those deficiencies.

    Steve Smoger may have been a little premature. I don't think Taylor could have weathered the storm but, as champion, he deserved the same chance that Smoger gave the challenger.

    Congrats to Kelly Pavlik!

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    I just got to see the fight. Great fight. Two very good fighters.
    Two things;
    Taylor IMO was 4-2 rds ahead with a big 2nd round.
    I had it 58-55 after 6 rds.

    The ref had asbsolute no option but to intervene.
    Taylor was not just hurt, but dangerously so..

    Pavlik is a great talent, but I felt that he is a little easy hit
    by big shots and if Taylor was a heavier banger and a little more precise
    in his finishing, he would have taken Pavlik out. All credit to
    Pavlik for getting up.

    The judges had it as I saw it, 58-55 on two cards and a little closer on the third card
    Last edited by walshb; 10-01-2007 at 11:15 AM.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    The HBO scorer Harold Lederman is it?, gave the first rd to Pavlik. I thought that this was the most decisive rd in Taylor's favor, apart from his winning 2nd rd.....Not impressed

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    I also thought that Taylor won the first rd.

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    Re: Taylor-Pavlic Result & Discussion 9/29/07

    Quote Originally Posted by kikibalt
    I also thought that Taylor won the first rd.
    Then it's OK to assume that Taylor had a 3 point lead going into the third rd....
    Bad judging IMO, despite Pavlik also having a good first rd, Taylor was sharper and landed more and controlled the rd. It was I believe, a 'decisive 10-9' rd for Taylor
    Last edited by walshb; 10-01-2007 at 11:01 AM.

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