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Thread: 2008 HOF Nominees

  1. #61
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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    One last thing though, which is very relevant!!!

    Hawkins, you talk about my behavior in the Jones thread, but I just checked out the very last thread about Roy Jones on the forum...I did not even post in, but guess what...you did...and guess what elese...you were in a pissing contest with three different forum member, of which you started the nonsense: Wpink, Senya13 and lu047w...and I'm sure if I looked that you have had problems in several other threads as well with several other people, yet you think that you have the high road...that's very, very funny!

    But surely it is everyone else's fault...right...even though you have an obvious history! I think before you try to down someone else and talk about them, you better think about your own problems in the past as you seem to be the person that is hard to get along with!! If fact, I don't know anyone else that does not like to debate with me...I bet you cannot say the same!!!

    Gor--That is all that have to say about this!
    Last edited by BDeskins; 10-09-2007 at 07:03 PM.

  2. #62
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    Thank Goodness

    For small favors.

    Why I ever got the impression conversing with you could ever get out of hand and devolve into......THIS....I'll never know. (To clarify something here, lu047w and I have never exchanged a terse word.....ever. Here or anywhere else.)

    Now back to the thread, if that's ok.

    Ray,

    The Double wide might be too big.

    I wouldn't want my Larry Holmes bobble head, that I can contribute to the Artifacts and Collectibles "wing", to seem like it would get lost in the CYBHOF's overall vastness.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 10-09-2007 at 07:59 PM.

  3. #63
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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    Perhaps if you would respond to someone with a little decency and respect instead of trying to pretend that you are so intellectually above people, which you clearly are not, then there would be no threads getting out of hand! But then again, ignorant people do not really recognize that they are, but everyone else does!!!

    Now can we get back to the thread there double-wide?

  4. #64
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    Already have

    Hawk

  5. #65
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    Re: Thank Goodness

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    The Double wide might be too big.

    I wouldn't want my Larry Holmes bobble head, that I can contribute to the Artifacts and Collectibles "wing", to seem like it would get lost in the CYBHOF's overall vastness.

    Hawk
    It'll be okay. Well, put one of those little spot lights on it.

  6. #66
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    As long as we don't melt it I'm fine

    Collectibles from Holmes's Round One Lounge don't come cheap!

    Hawk

  7. #67
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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    You guys will never replicate the sausage sandwiches.

  8. #68
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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    I actually take a different point of view on the Hall. I think even the fighters we consider borderline SHOULD be in. Boxing as a sport is usually a story about the poor neighborhood boy who uses boxing as an outlet to make it big when he has precious few opportunities. There are great stories there, and winning a title is a huge accomplishment.

    If you look at the other major sports, think of how many professional football players, basketball players, baseball players, and hockey players there has been since pro sports started and add them up. Well, that total number is probably still less than the total number of professional boxers that have ever laced up the gloves. And yet, the number of fighters in Canastota is probably a little less than the number in the Hockey Hall of Fame, about par with football and baseball, and more than in the pro basketball Hall of Fame. So, even the fighters we try to say don't merit induction, they are better than 99% of all the fighters that have ever been fighting and deserve to be immortalized for the common boxing fans to see. It's no secret that the demographic for boxing skews old, and with more and more of the older fans being lost, the more fighters we can immortalize (within reason), the more fighters that will have their accomplishments proved worthy in a fan's eyes. If you tell some 20yr old about Charley Burley, they would probably say "What?" But if you say that you are talking about HOF boxer Charley Burley, the importance of those 3 initials is not lost and even that person with no knowledge of boxing would realize that the fighter must have been great to be in the HOF. And let's face it, boxing is a sport of great individuals who lay their bodies on the line and strip their souls for the paying public. So, instead of trying to limit the HOF, I think they are doing a good job of adding the popular fighters (people like Gatti in the future) along with the skilled ones with lesser fan bases (like Harold Johnson) and then the slam dunk no-brainers who drive the sport (Larry Holmes, SRL, etc.). That's my two cents on it.

    Deepak

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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    You make a very good point Deepak and I agree. A lot of people do not like the adage that "more is better," but I think it would be better in this instance. With every fighter who is inducted there is a whole slew of new history to add to the story. Of course there has to be a limit as to who is elected, but fighters like those that I mentioned and Naseem Hamed, as well as most of the others who are on the nomination list, well, if they were in the HOF then that would be just that much more information out there!

  10. #70
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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    I'm with Dnahar and BDeskins. More is better--to a reasonable point-- and that is much like other sports' HOFs.

    For fighter "automatic" inductees, how about including ANYONE who has held a LINEAL belt and successfully defended it 5 times (no alphabet soup belts, just the "real" champ in each division) ? (This is just a guess as to a starting point.) I wonder how many individuals that would get us . . . a lot more than 24, I'd say.

    Then a voting process would allow in certain alphabet soup champs (who may have held a non-lineal belt but were considered tops) and noteworthy contenders (like my man Leroy Caldwell, who lost to just about every top heavy from the 1970s; o.k., maybe not him).

  11. #71
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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    heres the thing. i am an angelino....i saw the careers of both danny lopez and carlos palomino unfold at about the same time.

    palomino was a very good fighter. he had the tools to get past a shop worn mando muniz. that is the highlight of his career in my estimation. some might say his title winning performance against stracey in england should take the cake but i feel he fought better fighters here. i always considered stracey fortunate. he made his bones against very shopworn former contenders before napoles who was as shopworn as a top fighter can be.

    in L.A. it was well known that andy price beat carlos and that he got a gift over an ancient hegemon lewis. he had a couple of lack luster title defences, lost the title to a jr. welter and then lost to duran, no shame but , a former lightweight king.

    carlos gained access to this hall because he was more reconizable than danny(or davy or gato). he was on taxi and did some commercials and the hall knew he would be remembered enough to sell some tickets.

    can any angelino here tell me honestly that carlos had a better career than those guys?

    greg

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    Greg

    It is exactly for that reason, why I think the current system should be overhauled and more stringent.

    All Halls are going to do what you just described to one degree or another. But IBHOF seems to be doing it to a higher degree.

    It is CLEARLY more about name recognition than accomplishment. I almost get the feeling that the inductees are based on who will garner the most tickets come HOF weekend.

    ESPN did a show on the 20 greatest boxers not too long ago. If you look at the list that ESPN put together, it was almost a pure name recognition list. Add to that the fact that if a fighter like Greb, you had no footage to show, they weren't making the list.

    I almost get the feeling that Canastota acts in a similar manner.

    I still feel the Hall should be about the very best. The Elite.

    Not about the popular. Or just the very good.

    Hawk

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    And

    Sharks, I never ate at Larrys.

    Or are you talking about food in Upstate NY?

    Hawk

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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    I agree with deepak. One unfortunate problem with both halls is sometimes if you don't have an advocate, you can be overlooked. For instance, a friend of mine lives in minnesota and has pushed for more recognition of fighters from that area. If Bdeskins feels more british fighters should be in, he should contact both halls and make his case. Contact election committees and point out which fighters he feels are deserving. Unfortunately much of getting into the hall is also about politics, not just records. Why weren't pernell or terry norris on the WBHOF ballot?

  15. #75
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    Deep and Philly

    I can see both of your points here re having the HOF associated with a fighters name.

    The only thing that I would caution anyone is when you have a scenario like a Davey Moore who does not and may never have that designation.

    That Ingemar Johansson does and Moore does not, does not tell me that Ingo was a Greater fighter than Moore.

    I recall many years ago when Boxing was on Network TV, it was determined if you put the words "title fight" ahead of the bout, it would attract more viewers.

    The mere fact that a Billy COstello Saoul Mamby bout would be viewed by more people than Arturo Gatti Mickey Ward, simply becuase one bout was for a title and the other was not, just has me shaking my head.

    To me, that sounds like what we are faced with here. Unless HOF is attched to a fighters name, then he is ignored by anyone seeking to learn more about the sport. To ME, the previous analogy of Ingo and Davey Moore is where I see this to be dicey.

    At least when explaining who Davey Moore was, you can cite him being a champion. With A Charley Burley as Deep mentioned, he wasn't a champ. So the only designation he has going for him is the HOF. I see and understand the point Deep makes here. I just think that that sets a bad precedent in that now you have someone thinking that UNLESS it says HOF in front of their name, they were NOT great fighters. IF Davey Moore never makes it in, then this line of thinking is misleading.

    Jim Rice was one of my favorite Baseball players of all time. He probably will never make it into the Hall. And with Baseball's inflated numbers today, his 382 Home Runs makes it look like he had only average power.

    If someone were to ask me what was so special about Jim Rice, I think i need to take the time to detail it out. HOF ahead of his name isn'g going to make Jim Ed a better player than he was. We already KNOW how good he was. If someone is unfamiliar with him, you need to explain it.

    THe same way with a Charley Burley and a Davey Moore. Whether they have that HOF designation or not.

    Hawk

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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    Of couse back than title bouts gainer more fame, there was 1 champ in each divsion, but now with the alphas, super champs ete. A title fight TO ME any way, means the same as a evey day fight lol.

  17. #77
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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    i agree hawk that we should be informative.

    in the case of danny lopez and gato gonzalez there have been strident efforts to get their careers included into the IBHOF. the problem has not been the telling as much as the def ears at the hall. there is an arrogance there that is palpable...ask IBRO members about it.
    greg

  18. #78
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    Greg

    I want to take the point you make about being informative one step further.

    I certainly can understand point about wanting to see more fighter in the Hall becuase if you DO want to learn about a fighter, well the IBHOF SHOULD be the place to go.

    And if that was the only resource we all have in this cyber world we live in, then I might even change my thought on this stance of mine.

    But the truth of the matter is, that other than the plaque on the wall, what significant amount MORE information will you learn about an inducted fighter.

    Heck If you did a Google on nearly any fighter, you can find as much if not MORE information about them, than is available in the IBHOF write up.

    Heck Wikipedia certainly has it's faults, but look at the following write ups on Barry MCGuigan in the IBHOF website:

    Barry McGuigan

    Born: 1961Bouts: 35Won: 32Lost: 3KOs: 28 Induction: 2005

    - "The Clones Cyclone"Born Finbar Patrick McGuigan in Monaghan, Ulster, Ireland on February 28, 1961, he was raised in the small town of Clones. McGuigan captured a gold medal at the 1978 Commonwealth Games and turned pro in 1981. In 1983 he won both the British and European featherweight titles. Following a win over top contender Jose Caba and former featherweight champion Juan LaPorte, McGuigan was matched with Eusebio Pedroza for his WBA featherweight title. On June 8, 1985 a crowd of nearly 26,000 packed Queen's Park Rangers Stadium in London to see a match-up between McGuigan and the skillful Panamanian legend. McGuigan dropped Pedroza in the 7th round and after 15 grueling rounds, was awarded the decision and the championship. McGuigan was successful in two title defenses against Bernard Taylor (KO8) and Danilo Cabrera (TKO14) before meeting Steve Cruz for his third defense. In 110-degree heat in Caesars Palace McGuigan hit the canvas in the 10th and 15th rounds of the toe-to-toe affair and after 15 rounds, Cruz was the new champion via 15-round decision. Inactive for two years after the Cruz battle, McGuigan re-emerged for four bouts before retiring in 1989 with a 32-3 (28 KOs) record. Noted for his stamina, courage, durable chin, determination, and busy style, McGuigan is a hero in his native land. His immense popularity transcended boxing. Long-standing violence between Catholics and Protestants subsided when McGuigan stepped in the ring. The popular saying of the day was "Leave the fighting to McGuigan." Since retiring from the ring, the effervescent Irishman has served as a noted television commentator and columnist.


    And now take a peak at what WikiPedia has to offer:

    Barry McGuigan
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Find out more about navigating Wikipedia and finding information
    Jump to: navigation, search
    Barry McGuigan MBE
    Statistics
    Real name Finbar Patrick McGuigan MBE
    Nickname The Clones Cyclone
    Rated at Featherweight
    Nationality Irish
    Birth date 28 February 1961 (age 46)
    Birth place Clones, Ireland
    Stance Orthodox
    Boxing record
    Total fights 35
    Wins 32
    Wins by KO 26
    Losses 3
    No contests 0
    Finbar Patrick "Barry" McGuigan MBE (born February 28, 1961 in Clones, County Monaghan, Ireland), nicknamed The Clones Cyclone, is a former professional boxer who became a world Featherweight champion.
    McGuigan, who is the son of the late Pat McGuigan, a famous singer in Ireland, fought for Northern Ireland in the 1978 Commonwealth Games and represented his native country at the 1980 Summer Olympics in Moscow. Pat McGuigan sang Danny Boy before several of his son's fights.
    During his career, McGuigan fought at a number of venues in both parts of Ireland and in Great Britain. He attracted an enormous and loyal following in the mid-1980s, particularly to the King's Hall in Belfast which he normally packed to the rafters. This, and the media attention that surrounded him, is evidence that not since Rinty Monaghan in the 1940s had the city seen such a popular boxer.
    McGuigan is a Roman Catholic, and at a time when Roman Catholics and Protestants were clashing during The Troubles in Northern Ireland, McGuigan married a Protestant woman. A saying was coined: "Leave the fighting to McGuigan" in part because of his insistence on being a non-sectarian. As a non-sectarian sporting ambassador for Northern Ireland he drew on the experience of George Best and would later be emulated by Eddie Irvine.
    Contents[hide] 1 Professional career 2 After Boxing 3 Other Recognition 4 Trivia 5 External links
    [edit] Professional career
    He started his professional boxing career on May 10, 1981, beating Selwyn Bell by a knockout in two rounds in Dublin. After another win, he suffered his first setback, losing a hotly disputed decision (which had him in tears) to Peter Eubanks (brother of Chris Eubank) over eight rounds at Wembley, England.
    After his first loss, McGuigan notched up two more wins, including one over Terry Pizzarro, and then he was given a rematch with Eubank. The second time around, McGuigan prevailed, by a knockout in the eighth round.
    In 1982, McGuigan won eight fights, seven by knockout. One of these, however, almost destroyed his career and his life. Opposed by Nigeria's Young Ali on June 14, 1982, McGuigan won by a knockout in six rounds; Ali fell into a coma from which he never recovered, dying six months later in his homeland. According to the book The Ring Boxing The 20th Century, this affected McGuigan so much that he wasn't sure he wanted to keep on boxing.
    However, he did continue boxing, and in 1983, he won four fights, including his first trip to fight outside Europe (when he beat Samuel Meck by a knockout in six in Ontario, Canada), before getting his first try at a title. On November 16, Italy's Valerio Nati defended his European Featherweight belt versus McGuigan in Belfast, and McGuigan won the crown with a knockout in the sixth round. He then became the number one Featherweight challenger in the World Boxing Association.
    In 1984, he won five bouts, all by knockout. Among the fighters he beat were former world title challengers Jose Caba and Felipe Orozco. He also beat fringe contender Paul DeVorce to keep his chance at a Word Championship attempt alive.
    In 1985, McGuigan met former world Featherweight champion Juan Laporte and won by a decision after ten rounds. Following one more win, he finally got his world title try when the WBA world featherweight champion, Eusebio Pedroza of Panama, came to London to put his title on the line at Loftus Road football stadium. McGuigan became the champion by dropping Pedroza in round seven and winning a unanimous fifteen-round decision in a fight refereed by hall of fame referee Stanley Christodoulou. Already a national hero in Ireland, McGuigan and his wife were feted in a public reception through the streets of Belfast that attracted several hundred thousand spectators. Later that year, he was named BBC Sports Personality of the Year, becoming the first person not born in the United Kingdom to win the award.
    McGuigan made his first defence against Bernard Taylor, who was stopped in the ninth round, and then against Danilo Cabrera, who got knocked out in fourteen rounds. This proved to be a controversial stoppage: The fight was stopped after the challenger bent over to pick up his mouthpiece after losing it, a practice that is allowed in many countries but not in Ireland. Cabrera was not aware of this, and the fight was stopped. Although Cabrera's corner protested the outcome, McGuigan remained the winner by a knockout. This fight marked the end of McGuigan's extremely short peak as world champion.
    For his next defence, he went to Las Vegas in June of 1986, where he faced the relatively unknown Stevie Cruz from Texas in what proved a gruelling fifteen-round title bout under a blazing sun. McGuigan held a lead halfway through, but suffered dehydration because of the extreme heat and wilted near the end, being dropped in rounds ten and fifteen. He eventually lost a close decision and his world belt, which he was never to reclaim. After the fight, McGuigan required hospitalisation because of his dehydrated state.
    After that fight he retired, partly due to the death of his father in 1987. He used to say his father was his greatest inspiration and, after his death, apparently felt no reason to continue boxing. However, he returned to the ring between 1988 and 1989, beating former world title challengers Nicky Perez and Francisco Tomas Da Cruz before losing to future challenger Jim McDonnell by a technical knockout (cuts) in four rounds. McGuigan then retired permanently from boxing.
    His record was 32 wins and 3 losses, with 26 wins by knockout. In January 2005, McGuigan was elected into the International Boxing Hall of Fame. Some experts have questioned the level of competition he fought during his career, observing that he did not meet the WBC Champion Azumah Nelson of Ghana, whom noted commentator Jack McGowan of the Belfast Telegraph is convinced McGuigan would not have beaten. However, former great Sir Henry Cooper believes that McGuigan at his peak was one of the best fighters ever to have emerged from Ireland.
    [edit] After Boxing
    McGuigan attempted to establish an association to protect the rights of boxers against what he, and others, considered omnipotent managers and promoters. In this regard, he had had a difficult time during his own career. A very close relationship with his manager deteriorated badly over time and led to a successful libel case against him by his former manager several years later.
    In the 1980s he was a chat show host on BBC1.
    McGuigan currently lives in London with his wife and children, one of which (Shane) goes to school at The King's School Canterbury and looks like becoming a professional boxer. Barry McGuigan currently works as a boxing commentator for ITV. He has tried his hand at acting, appearing in the movie Malicious Intent in 2000. He has a band. Two biographies of McGuigan have been written.
    More recently, fellow Clones native and boxer Kevin McBride has honoured McGuigan by adopting the nickname The Clones Colossus.
    McGuigan appeared in the third series of ITV's Hell's Kitchen in September 2007, where he was eventually crowned the winner after winning the public vote.
    [edit] Other Recognition
    Inducted into the World Boxing Hall of Fame
    Inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 2005
    Fought in Ring Magazine's 1986 Fight of the Year.
    Title character in the 8-bit computer game, Barry McGuigan World Championship Boxing
    Voted BBC Sports Personality of the Year 1985.
    Honoured in a Irish ballad song entitled Clones Cyclone written by Johnny McCauley and sung by Big Tom..


    And it's not limited to simply fighters inducted. Do a Google search on Davey Moore, Danny Lopez or Gato Gonzales and you will see the Wikipedia info either matches or exceeds what the IBHOF has written up on fighters that ARE inducted.

    So the Info IS out there. And it's not THAT hard to get a hold of.

    The IBHOF does not have the market cornered on being able to educate the average fan. Heck, our very own site I feel offers MUCH more information than the IBHOF could dream of offering up.

    Listen, I'm not here to trash Canastota, even that is basically all I'm doing. I commend them for the effort and the fact that they Gave Boxing a HALL when the Ring Stopped doing THIER Annual Inductions. And they gave us a PHYSICAL spot (size not withstanding) for us to go.

    I just think it COULD be better.

    Hawk

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    Hawk

    While it is true that some non-HOF do not get the credit they deserve, the HOF is more a marking of greatness. Because, regarding Davey Moore for example, I will always think of him as Davey Moore, Featherweight Champion (and well I will also think of his tragic death from the Ramos fight, but that is not based on his fistic accomplishments). So even if some of the fighters don't get into the HOF, they would still be regarded as champions if they ran into people like you, me, and anyone else on this board. While you are correct that some people might dismiss Davey Moore because he isn't a HOF, those are the same people who couldn't tell you who Alan Ameche is since he's not in the HOF, or Jim Rice as you mentioned, or Spencer Haywood. I could tell you about all of these guys and the people who care about the sports and really want to learn can readily find out about them, but for everyone else, at least enough fighters would get in that most of the greats would be garnered with HOF status.

    Deepak

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    Should Ken Norton Really Be in the Hall of Fame?

    Several years ago the very personable and popular Ken Norton was enshrined in Boxing's Hall of Fame. It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. I met Ken a couple of years back in Canastota. His rapport with the fans and his willingness to mingle and sign autographs endeared him to the crowd. Being an ambassador for boxing is one thing and being a Hall of Fame caliber boxer is another. After watching Jimmy Bivins wait for years to be rightfully inducted it made me wonder what the qualifications really are. Does Ken really deserve to be enshrined? Let's examine his career.

    Ken began his career in a promising fashion reeling off an unbeaten streak against mediocre opposition. He was beginning to gain recognition as a top prospect until the roof caved in. A wiry Venezuelan named Jose Luis Garcia bombed Ken out and forced Norton to start all over. It took some time but Ken finally re-established himself with tough victories over men like Jack O'Halloran and Henry Clark. Norton was ranked but no one gave him a chance when he met ex-champion Muhammad Ali in March of 1973. In a fight that will forever be remembered as "The Jaw Breaker", Norton walked off with the upset decision and Ali left to have his jaw wired. Their September 1973 rematch saw a better-conditioned Ali win a very close verdict.

    In splitting two bouts with Ali. Ken got his first shot at the world crown against George Foreman. Foreman had destroyed Ken's friend Joe Frazier in two rounds to capture the title. George duplicated the feat halting Kenny in round two of a mismatch. Again Norton would rebuild his career and after Ali stripped Foreman of his cloak of invincibility in Zaire, Ken became the logical contender. They met in their rubber match for Ali's title in September of 1976 at Yankee Stadium. Ali retained his title with an unpopular decision. Personally, I felt Kenny deserved the verdict.

    When Norton destroyed previously unbeaten Duane Bobick in one round in 1977, he put himself in line for a fourth meeting with Ali. Then boxing politics intervened. Ali lost his title in a major upset to Leon Spinks. The W.B.C. ordered Spinks to defend his title against Norton. Instead Spinks opted for a more lucrative rematch with Ali. Norton then met clever Jimmy Young. The winner to be proclaimed "champion" by the W.B.C. Norton won a dull decision over Young and he was bestowed the W.B.C. crown. So never having won the title in the ring, Kenny lost it in his first defense to Larry Holmes in a terrific battle. Everyone was looking forward to a rematch but Kenny got himself knocked out in one round by Earnie Shavers.

    Ken would again try to re-establish himself but his age had finally caught up to him. A life and death struggle to secure a draw with journeyman Scott LeDoux pretty much spelled the end. He did re-surface briefly to edge Tex Cobb, but that only led to disaster as a red hot Gerry Cooney put a final exclamation point on Ken's career with a brutal one round knockout. Ken did beat some notables during his distinguished career. Contenders like Henry Clark, Jerry Quarry, Boone Kirkman, and Garcia in a rematch, Jimmy Young, Cobb, and Larry Middleton adorn his record.

    In reality, Ken lived off his reputation earned in his trio of bouts with Ali. For some reason Ken always proved troublesome to Muhammad. Ken's best bout may have been his losing venture against Holmes in an all time classic. Ken's chin was suspect ever since the first Garcia bout. Anytime he faced a big, big puncher he was usually sent home early. Reference to his bouts with Foreman, Shavers, and Cooney. Quarry and Henry Clark were on the downside of their careers when Ken beat them. Kirkman was overrated. Young and Middleton were fast and smart but light hitters. Cobb was game and tough but slow. Kenny was well ahead of LeDoux before his legs gave out and Scott gamely battled back to almost halt Ken. Why did Ken never meet Ron Lyle?


    Ken Norton was a very good heavyweight, make no mistake about it. He was not a GREAT heavyweight. Only the greats should be honored as a member of The International Boxing Hall of Fame.

    Jim can be contacted at jimsboxing@zoominternet.net

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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    Hell I'd enter Barry alone for his display in Vegas in 1986.......
    It would be an honorary induction for possibly the gutsiest display
    ever inside a boxing ring..

    Though maybe I'm a little biased....

    More is better in the HOF!!!!

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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    I don't think the big issue about more fighters being put in the HOF is so people can learn about them at Canastota...it's more to give them the proper respect and acknowledgement as so many of today's new fans know very little about the past greats and by making them a HOF fighter people will become interested in learning about them and anyone who knows anything about the International Boxing Hall of Fame...well, it is certainly not a place where a person is going to be able to do research.

    But by naming a fighter a HOFer, well, that gives someone a name to research and then they can do the proper research at libraries through microfilm, periodicals of the time, films and through the internet. But mainly...it's just about giving so many of the past greats the acknowledgment and respect that they deserve and there are a hell of a lot of great fighters out there that have been forgotten by time and the more names that are in the Hall, the more a person can learn about the history of the sport!!!

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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    Betulio Gonzalez deserves to be in -- beat HOFers Canto and Oguma; his series with canto was always close -- he also beat the extremely talented and underrated Martin Vargas.

    Gonzalez also DECLINED the world title after his disputed draw with Erbito Salavarria for the vacant WBC flyweight title. Salvarria was cought using stimulants in his water bottle and the local Venezuelan commission awarded him the world title, which he declined.

    That is a HOFer in my eyes.

    Gonzalez also makes the exclusive list of all time fighters with 50 or more kayos. I think Boxrec is missing half a dozen or so kayo wins.

  24. #84
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    Frank

    I love the piece you shared re Norton.

    Kenny is one of my favorite fighter of all time.

    I ALWAYS rooted for him, except when he fought Holmes. And even then, I didn't outright root agianst him.

    He's a class act and a helluva fighter, who I honestly think gets the short shrift more often than not. Imo He's MORE than just a fighter who gave Ali all sorts of trouble. And I do not denigrate his chin as often and as readily as many do.

    I also think he belongs among the 20 to 25 greatest heavies that ever lived (in my list top 20).

    I just don't think he belongs in the Hall of Fame.

    I think the bar for the Hall should be set higher. Even if it means that many of my favorites, who are in, don't belong.

    Hawk

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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    Being that the bar is not higher, which is a reality, then there should be more than less fighters which get in! If there was a whole different system then that would be different, but being that want is different than reality when it comes to current voting then many, many more great fighters should be recognized...even if they weren't the greatest!

    But I think Harry Carson said it best...he stated something like, "I sure as hell do not need some reporter validating whether, or not I had a great career as most never even put the pads on to begin with, yet they feel they know what is to really be great in the game!"
    Last edited by BDeskins; 10-16-2007 at 06:44 PM.

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    It's a reality

    THat Ingemar Johansson and Barry McGuigan are in the HOF.

    And it's a reality that Davey Moore isn't even on the ballot to be voted in.

    It's this reality that has ME wanting to scrap the whole thing and start the process all over.

    And yes, by starting over and setting the bar higher, Davey Moore may still not get in. But at the very least, fighters such as the aforementioned would NEVER make it in ahead of him.

    There are few posters on this site with whom I have greater respect for than Dhanar. We obviously see this topic with vastly different viewpoints. ANd that's ok.

    I'm going to remain very steadfast on this one: The IBHOF, it's methodology of who they vote in is flawed, in more ways than one. The injustice of Davey Moore not even being on the ballot isn't even my chief complaint about the Hall and yet the fact that there are fighters who are already inducted and will be inducted THIS YEAR, that aren't as good or as accomplished as he, SHOULD be insulting to every boxing fan on this planet.

    I beleive it, the Hall should be scrapped and they should start over. And I DO beleive it should be done, with stricter guidelines and it SHOULD be difficult to get in. And not Just for a Davey Moore.

    Hawk

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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    I'm still recovering from the WBHOF induction banquet last weekend. What a great time. What a joy to see Yaqui Lopez walking around, the smile never left his face. Should Yaqui have been inducted? His record was 63-15. From 1972 to 1984 he faced everybody, knocking out 40 opponents. Matthew Saad Muhammad said in his induction speech last year that yaqui was a hall of famer. Matthew faced yaqui in the ring 2 times. If Saad thinks he should be in the hall, thats good enough for me.
    I'm one of those that feel the more boxers enshrined, the better. Boxing is different from other sports. You're in the ring alone, no teamate to rely on. Your training requires that you get beat on, hour upon hour, day after day. you run countless miles in the early morning, alone. You are constantly being shortchanged and taken advantage of by promoters, trainers, writers, and even fans. You have no pension plan, no medical insurance. When your career is finished, the promoters ignore you, the writers stop writing about you, and the fans find new favorites to cheer on. Your body aches from the beatings its taken over the years, your brain doesn't work as fast as it used to before taking countless blows to the head.
    On induction weekend, I like to think Yaqui's pain was a little less, fans cheered him on again, and writers wrote about him again. Whats so wrong with honoring someone who gave his all in the ring, who never quit, who fought them all? Whats wrong with honoring someone who's courage, dedication, and dignity are a model for all up and comming fighters.
    What does the IBHOF say to fighters like Yaqui, You didn't win a championship, hence you're not worthy? What kind of a message is that to send to other athletes? It seems we are raised today with the insane attitude "If you didn't win the gold medal, you didn't succeed" . In america, it seems like silver and bronze medals don't exist.
    Everyone agrees Ali should be in the hall of fame, well guess what, Ali wasn't a saint either. Look at it this way, Pete Rose has the record for most hits. He is not in the baseball hall of fame because of his character. Character counts, sometimes more than records.
    Congratulations Yaqui, on a well DESERVED honor.

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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    I will now get off my soap box.

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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillyfan
    I'm still recovering from the WBHOF induction banquet last weekend. What a great time. What a joy to see Yaqui Lopez walking around, the smile never left his face. Should Yaqui have been inducted? His record was 63-15. From 1972 to 1984 he faced everybody, knocking out 40 opponents. Matthew Saad Muhammad said in his induction speech last year that yaqui was a hall of famer. Matthew faced yaqui in the ring 2 times. If Saad thinks he should be in the hall, thats good enough for me.
    I'm one of those that feel the more boxers enshrined, the better. Boxing is different from other sports. You're in the ring alone, no teamate to rely on. Your training requires that you get beat on, hour upon hour, day after day. you run countless miles in the early morning, alone. You are constantly being shortchanged and taken advantage of by promoters, trainers, writers, and even fans. You have no pension plan, no medical insurance. When your career is finished, the promoters ignore you, the writers stop writing about you, and the fans find new favorites to cheer on. Your body aches from the beatings its taken over the years, your brain doesn't work as fast as it used to before taking countless blows to the head.
    On induction weekend, I like to think Yaqui's pain was a little less, fans cheered him on again, and writers wrote about him again. Whats so wrong with honoring someone who gave his all in the ring, who never quit, who fought them all? Whats wrong with honoring someone who's courage, dedication, and dignity are a model for all up and comming fighters.
    What does the IBHOF say to fighters like Yaqui, You didn't win a championship, hence you're not worthy? What kind of a message is that to send to other athletes? It seems we are raised today with the insane attitude "If you didn't win the gold medal, you didn't succeed" . In america, it seems like silver and bronze medals don't exist.
    Everyone agrees Ali should be in the hall of fame, well guess what, Ali wasn't a saint either. Look at it this way, Pete Rose has the record for most hits. He is not in the baseball hall of fame because of his character. Character counts, sometimes more than records.
    Congratulations Yaqui, on a well DESERVED honor.
    Well if character counts then Ali should be Number 1 in the HALL!!!

  30. #90
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    Re: 2008 HOF Nominees

    Yeah... but that was a great soapbox speach!

    As a gut reaction, I like the fact Yaqui Lopez is in one of the two halls.

    BTW, I heard you guys were partying until 3AM!!!

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