Foreman's superior strength...

[kenmore]

I have always regarded Foreman as possibly being the strongest heavyweight in boxing history. Just watch Foreman's bout against the exceptionally strong and durable George Chuvalo. Foreman literally manhandles Chuvalo for three rounds before the referee stops the fight. Very, very few heavyweights in history could have walked through Chuvalo like that.

Also check out the way Foreman treats big, strong heavyweights like Joe Frazier and Ken Norton as if they were beach balls. Incredible.

My tentative guess is that John L. Sullivan and Jim Jeffries were not nearly as strong as Foreman was. Sullivan especially must have been weaker than Foreman, as John L. was only 5'10 1/2", 188lbs. to George's 6'3", 225lbs. (prime).

[greek1237]

I belive Marciano should get a mention.

[Elwill7847]

The young George Foreman, 6'3" & 217 lbs was just awesome. I saw him fight Scott Le Doux in my hometown of Utica, NY in 1976 and he just crushed Le Doux.

He worked out one day in the gym I trained in and he was an awesome physical speciman. Watched him hit the heavy bag and the punches hitting the bag sounded like shotgun blasts....made me wonder how Ali was able to take his punches.

[apollack]

Sullivan especially must have been weaker than Foreman, as John L. was only 5'10 1/2", 188lbs. to George's 6'3", 225lbs. (prime).

Actually, Sullivan typically weighed around 200 pounds at his sharpest, and for most of his career was over 200. He only weighed less at the beginning of his career, and for the finish fight with Ryan, back when they had to do such phenomenal endurance training that they got down in weight because they had to be prepared to last 2 or 3 hours if it was a finish fight. Foreman could barely last 48 minutes (12 rounds). A lot of times, Sullivan underrepresented his weight, when he really was 220 or 230 pounds. Back then, being high in weight was considered a bad thing, so a lot of times Sully would claim to be 208 or something, but some reporter would say "He looked ten pounds bigger," or "He looked 20 pounds bigger," or "He was probably closer to 240 than 204."

[HandToMouth]

what about primo carnera?

at 6'5", 265, w/o an oz of fat on him... if one is talking pure brute strength, then he certainly has to be mentioned in the top 10.



in that regards (pure brute power & size) i've got:

1. nicolay valuev

2. primo carnera

3. george foreman

4. sonny liston

5. lennox lewis

6. jess willard

7. max baer

8. ed 'too tall' jones

9. buster mathis

10. razor ruddock

[Thor DK]

Here is a photo of Carnera after an exhibition with Max Baer. Carnera is 46.
[IMG][/IMG]

[kenmore]

in that regards (pure brute power & size) i've got:

1. nicolay valuev

2. primo carnera

3. george foreman

4. sonny liston

5. lennox lewis

6. jess willard

7. max baer

8. ed 'too tall' jones

9. buster mathis

10. razor ruddock

Valuev is not regarded as being an especially strong or powerful heavyweight. Ditto for Ed Jones and Buster Mathis.

Truth be told, Vladimir Klitschko is easily stronger and more powerful than Valuev. The same holds true for Vitali Klitschko (at least when Vitali was active).

The best way to judge a heavyweight's strength and power is to see if his punches always hurt his opponents. When watching a physically powerful fighter like Foreman, you can see his opponents sway when George lands any kind of solid blow. You'll notice also that whenever Foreman pushes his opponents -- even when he shoves their shoulder with a single glove -- they seem to stumble backwards. That is the hallmark of a damned strong heavyweight.

Again, I encourage people to watch the Foreman KO3 Chuvalo bout on youtube.com. Chuvalo had the durability of a rock...aside from Foreman, nobody ever pushed Chuvalo around, knocked him off balance, or turned his legs to rubber with solid punches to the head. Foreman had all of these effects on Chuvalo...it is an amazing sight to behold.

Foreman's physical strength in the ring was extraordinary...very, very rare in boxing history.

As for Chuvalo, it is tesimony to his amazing durability and strength that he was never off of his feet despite the pounding Foreman gave him. The blows Chuvalo took that day would have dropped anyone else for a ten count.

[HE Grant]

The shots Foreman hit Chavalo with were among the most brutal I have seen. The fact that Chavalo was still standing was amazing but I'll tell you after watching it many times that Chavalo was going down if the ref let it continue. A few more of those and it was not humanly possible to continue standing. I have never seen a man hit harder, more and still stand although Mercer against Lennox Lewis comes close.

[hagler04]

Actually, a point I've felt for years: Ali controlled the pace of every fight he was in until his last two. Always. Win or lose. He moved when he wanted, he stood and fought when he wanted. He dictated the pace. Always. .

Ali was not dictating the pace in Frazier I and III and all the Norton fights (esp. in the latter half of those fights)

Just bc Ali would clown against the ropes doesn't mean he always wanted to be there.

[PeteLeo]

Actually, I would include the Lyle defense in the list of fights that Ali didn't conclusively control. Ron dictated virtually every minute of those ten-plus rounds until Muhammad finally hurt him and flurried -- with questionable effectiveness -- for the stoppage. The bout sucked, yes, but Lyle thought that he was doing the right thing in refusing to engage Ali consistently and in backing away any time Muhammad had an offensive moment. While this was not a case of the other guy violently forcing himself into the driver's seat, it clearly did throw Ali off his game and, I think, left him far behind on points until the end. PeteLeo.

[Dino1]

There are guys who are strong such as powerlifters and there are guys who can punch hard. Frazier could not press 160 lbs over his head, but he could hit very hard. Foreman was one of the few guys who was exceptional at BOTH. He was very strong and probably the hardest puncher of all time. My guess is, Jeffries was like that too. Ditto Liston. I don't think anyone could hit like George could and that includes Jeffries. I think Shavers came the closest. Dempsey said that Willard was very underrated and that he really felt an uppercut Jess landed on him. I watched the tape but don't remember seeing it. Carnera is an example of a guy who was very strong but no great hitter. But I will always believe that Foreman was the strongest man every to lace on the gloves.

[Phillyfan]

Actually, it clearly did throw Ali off his game and, I think, left him far behind on points until the end. PeteLeo.

Towards the end of the young fight, we all know jimmy ducked his head between the ropes when ALi began to mount an offensive. Ali is clearly aggravated at the tactic. Its kind of funny to watch him get pissed off.

[Michael Frank]

Ali was not dictating the pace in Frazier I and III and all the Norton fights (esp. in the latter half of those fights)

Just bc Ali would clown against the ropes doesn't mean he always wanted to be there.

Hags, you're right on all counts. Still, Ali dictated the pace in NEARLY all his fights, and I think he dictated more against Joe than is obvious (Frazier sure got the worst of it physically in #2 and #3, even with an effective body attack to Ali).

[brutu]

Ron Lyle looked like he was man handling Foreman in their fight,and Foreman looked like he didnt like it.
Also one of the Toronto seven wrestled Foreman to the canvas.
As far as Sonny Liston goes,I think both Burt Whithurst and Eddie Machen were man handling Liston(in spots)and he looked like he was becoming unglued during those moments.Machen was pushing Liston back to the ropes and,I cant remember which one,but in either one of those fights Liston was tackled to the canvas.
Also interesting is that both those fighters are listed as going the distance in those fights,but Whitehurst was all but knocked out in their second fight,his getting back in the ring about a second before the bell rang to end the fight was dramatic.In the fight with Machen,at one point Machen went to the canvas from what was ruled a low blow,but in studying the video tape,it looked like the punch may have been borderline if not a barely clean bodyshot.

[brutu]

Also in one of the fights with Gregory Peralta
(probably the re-match),Foreman broke Peraltas arm,just punching him.