James Toney vs Eddie Mustafa Muhammed

[pendleton23]

I think this would have been a very good bout between 2 very slick counterpunchers.

James Toney-Had the faster hands and slightly better defence in my opinion. Had a rock hard jaw but wasn't the greatest when it came to being in shape.Movement troubled Toney.Toney had some pop to his punches.

EM-Slick counter puncher with the edge in power over Toney.Also had a great chin but like Toney wasn't the best at getting into shape.I think EM would also be stronger then Toney.I think EM was also very accurate with his counters.His biggest weakness it seems was his motivation and being outworked in some of his bouts.

If Toney and EM both showed up at there best at lightheavy who would win?

[pendleton23]

Sorry guys-I didn't mean to post it more then once!

[hawk5ins]

At his best trounces Toney at his best at Light Heavy.

What was the best version of Toney at 175?

One of the Griffin Showings?

Toney never did anything substantive at that weight and when he fought there, he was wholly unimpressive.

I can't see any reason to pick against Mustapha at 175.

Hawk

[TKO11]

I think we need a thread for James Toney vs Eddie Mustafa Muhammed. Do we have one?

[TIP]

I like Mustafa in this one. I always thoughtEddie had the most pure talent and skill of all the 175lber's in that era. Problem was he wouldn't get into top shape. TIP

[hawk5ins]

But then again, I don't see a whole lot different or new here and the Dwight Qawi vs Toney at 175 matchup either.

Again, unless someone can produce a performance of Toney's at 175 that merits him the respect to be discussed in the same breath at Qawi or Mustafa, at this weight, then I simply see foregone conclusions in these matchups.

Just my opinion based on what we all have seen of Toney at 175.

Hawk

[Sharkey]

EMM wins, and wins easily. I would find it difficult to pick Toney over any excellent LH ever, and EMM is one of those.

[Elwill7847]

Eddie beats Toney

[apollack]

I say Toney by decision in a lackluster, slow, lethargic bout.

[hawk5ins]

To echo your point a bit deeper, if Toney ever showed us anything agianst Decent but not very special Light heavies such as Griffin, then we could at least have a discussion about matching him up agianst an Excellent Light Heavy. The the fact of the matter is, Toney never has.

A one sided mismatch IMO.

Hawk

[walshb]

On his best night which was rare he wins.
Past performances I will not go on
On his day at 160,168 and 175 he
was a talent to be reckoned with....
He beats Eddie all night in a great
fight

[hawk5ins]

I have asked this in the past and will do so agian, what performance of James Toney's at Light Heavyweight would lead anyone to beleive that he could compete with Eddie Mustafa Muhammad?

The orginal post asked this question:

"If Toney and EM both showed up at there best at lightheavy who would win?"

I think before we can answer THAT question, we need to ask ourselves what was Toney's best performance at 175? We surely can do this with Eddie. For me, I'll take the Mustafa who won the title from Marvin Johnson. Easy enough.

If you are going to ask if "both show up at their best at 175", we need to determine WHEN that was. And if one can determine WHEN that was, surely you can determine WHO it was agianst.

If we can't address that question, how can anyone qualify Toney as being worthy to step in the Ring with a PROVEN Excellent Light Heavy like Eddie?

Well I think this CAN be done and easy enough too. But in doing so, it doesn't bolster a postion or strengthen a case for calling for a James Toney victory.

Hawk

[walshb]

One thing is for sure, this definitely goes the distance as both had steel chins

[hagler04]

I have asked this in the past and will do so agian, what performance of James Toney's at Light Heavyweight would lead anyone to beleive that he could compete with Eddie Mustafa Muhammad?

The orginal post asked this question:

"If Toney and EM both showed up at there best at lightheavy who would win?"

I think before we can answer THAT question, we need to ask ourselves what was Toney's best performance at 175? We surely can do this with Eddie. For me, I'll take the Mustafa who won the title from Marvin Johnson. Easy enough.

If you are going to ask if "both show up at their best at 175", we need to determine WHEN that was. And if one can determine WHEN that was, surely you can determine WHO it was agianst.

If we can't address that question, how can anyone qualify Toney as being worthy to step in the Ring with a PROVEN Excellent Light Heavy like Eddie?

Well I think this CAN be done and easy enough too. But in doing so, it doesn't bolster a postion or strengthen a case for calling for a James Toney victory.

Hawk

Hawk, that's just being technical. Toney beat some of the best at 160, 168, and 190. He was at a low point in his career when he campaigned at 175 and often dropped a lot of weight very quickly. But since this is a "fantasy" fight, put him in good form/condition for the fight (say, the Anthony Hembrick bout, which Toney looked pretty sharp in). Charles Williams was essentially a light HW.
Toney has been a top player in this 40 lb gap (160-200) for years, and just b/c he technically didn't have a great performance at 175 doesn't mean he couldn't beat some good light HWs (who did Langford beat at 175 then? Or does he not beat any great 175 lbers either?)

I don't see Toney beating any "all time great" light HWs either but we're talking about Eddie Mustapha who yes had some good skills and great natural talent but was never able to really put it all together. He was a master at losing close decisions and I think he does the same vs Toney.

[Michael Frank]

Eddie was usually lazy and James was almost equally so. Yet both were incredibly talented. Eddie gets over-the-top credit from many considering he had really few scintillating performances against top-caliber comp, but his w-l record is top notch. And when he came to fight, I loved watching him.

He had incredible defense, and in his lop-sided loss to James Scott, he still ducked and dodged what seemed like hundreds of Scott misses. Just beautifully.

I think, unfortunately, that these two would be very careful against each other and would stink out the joint. That would be what I'd bet on if there was such a bet available, but I'd have to settle for the "over" or "goes the distance."

[Enswell]

To echo your point a bit deeper, if Toney ever showed us anything agianst Decent but not very special Light heavies such as Griffin, then we could at least have a discussion about matching him up agianst an Excellent Light Heavy. The the fact of the matter is, Toney never has.

A one sided mismatch IMO.

Hawk

For what it's worth, I thought Toney won the first Griffin match. I can't recollect my opinion on the rematch.

I like Eddie on a fairly convincing dec.

[walshb]

Hawk, that's just being technical. Toney beat some of the best at 160, 168, and 190. He was at a low point in his career when he campaigned at 175 and often dropped a lot of weight very quickly. But since this is a "fantasy" fight, put him in good form/condition for the fight (say, the Anthony Hembrick bout, which Toney looked pretty sharp in). Charles Williams was essentially a light HW.
Toney has been a top player in this 40 lb gap (160-200) for years, and just b/c he technically didn't have a great performance at 175 doesn't mean he couldn't beat some good light HWs (who did Langford beat at 175 then? Or does he not beat any great 175 lbers either?)

I don't see Toney beating any "all time great" light HWs either but we're talking about Eddie Mustapha who yes had some good skills and great natural talent but was never able to really put it all together. He was a master at losing close decisions and I think he does the same vs Toney.

I totally agree. We all know that James had some very poor runs of form, but when I discuss a fantasy fight I take the best of both men despite how they may have badly performed in certain weights or bouts. The Williams and Barkley bouts were exceptional performances and this Toney could give many 175lb fighters hell..

[hawk5ins]

I agree with you about the first Griffin bout. I thought Toney won as well.

But he still looked like absolute shit in doing so.

And if we are discussing the best version of Eddie Mustafa Muhammad at 175, we are talking a whole 'nother league of fighter here. Muhammad? Griffin? Yikes.

Hags, While STILL having no idea what the best version of Toney was at Light Heavy, becuase no one really has yet to point out one to me yet, I suppose if you want to take an AVERAGE performing Muhammad and place him agianst some Mythical version of Toney at 175, as opposed to using the best version of Eddie, then I guess I could see a strugle for Eddie.

But At 175, Mustafa from the Johnson fight lets say, Easily overwhelms any version of Toney that fought at 175 and I'd also take A BEST version of Eddie over any 167 pound version of Toney you can come up with as well.

Agianst a 167 pound version of Toney? If we want to spot Eddie that advantage, I"ll take Eddie by stoppage.

Hawk

[walshb]

I could SPOT Eddie 7lbs and be confident of my man Toney winning, but 8lbs???

That's a whole different ball game.....

[walshb]

I thought Toney's win over Hembrick was impressive....

[hawk5ins]

Anthony Hembrick..........Eddie Mustafa Muhammad.

Ok.

Hawk

[walshb]

Hembrick is no Eddie. I never claimed he was.
Toney beat what was in front of him in
an impressive manner....

Williams was a good good fighter and Toney boxed
beautifully against him. From what I saw of Eddie, which
wasn't a whole lot, but enough to make an informed decision,
then I see Toney out slicking him in a good fight...

And Williams wasn't IMO in Eddie's league either.

Toney is a great fighter for these fantasy fights.
His style is so versatile

[hawk5ins]

What Muhammad fights you have seen?

I'm going to go out on a limb and thinking you have never seen Eddie at his absolute best.

I'll be honest, I would have refrained from using a past his prime, dropping down in weight, Prince Charles Williams, as a bench mark for Toney's potential success agianst Eddie.

Hawk

[walshb]

Maybe I'm ill informed but I saw the complete Spinks fight which I thought
Spinks deserved and I thought Eddie was a game fighter who was maybe past it???

I still think Toney could perform well enough to beat Eddie based on this fight....

I also saw his win over Marvin Johnson which was quite impressive

Eddie was hardly a big LH was he....

Toney wouldn't be giving away much, if anything...

[hawk5ins]

Was coming down from Heavy after his fat showing agianst Snipes.

He dropped 26 pound in less than 2 months.

Credit Spinks for beating Eddie, but that was not Eddie at his best. He never gave himself an opportunity to come in at his best with all the flab he had to shed.

Eddie agiasnt Marvin is the Eddie you need to use. I'd take Marvin to overwhelm Toney as well.

Eddie was just over 6 foot tall. Whihc is an average sized Light heavy. Despite beginning his career at Middle, he was not Small for a LH. Spinks was 6'3", whihc is tall at Light Heavy similar to Foster.

Hawk

[walshb]

Well I think the tale of the tape is being a little generous to Eddie.
He looked small V Spinks, who granted, was a big LH.
Eddie was a big puncher, but not a big big LH puncher.
Toney stays the distance.

I would say Eddie is at most 5-11...an inch or max 2 above JT..

He is NOT as fast or as sound defensively.
These two areas are the key to victory.

He is stronger, but Toney is a fighter who doesn't let
his opponents out muscle him too easily.
He's a real throwback

[Sharkey]

If we give other fighters the benefit of 'upside' and 'potential' performances, then I expect we would have many fantasy fights between accomplished men with proven track records losing to guys who 'seem' to have been 'able' 'when on their game' to 'compete with anyone'.

Turning fantasy matchups into fantasy matchups between one guy and a fantasy opponent.

James Toney is quite a bit like Jack Sharkey to many people on this board it seems... but beyond Sharkey in that in circumstances where he didn't perform he still recieves due beyond the performances.

Riddick Bowe is another of the uber-Sharkeys. A guy where he MUST have been not only as good as his best performance, but is credited with being BETTER than his best night. Similar to James Toney at 175.

I ask: if Toney's style is so versatile he matches up great with admittedly superior PERFORMERS, why oh why did that style not translate to better perfromances against the men he DID fight at LH?? And if there are extenuating circumstances, there MUST be a performance at that weight to validate Toney as having standing at that weight.

PC Williams was not one of those. Toney deserves credit for winning that bout as he did. Very good win. Serves to tell us about Toney at 168, or Toney during that year.

However, Sharkey for his part is matched at his best, which is Dempsey vintage through Schmeling I or something. As a heavy. Which is what he weighed. Period. He wasn't a potential mob-boss because he hung with Capone once or twice and was rich and smart and tough.

Toney is being done a disservice I think actually by those stating he was a handful for anyone at 175 when the history does not relay that info. It muddles his true worth and casts a pall over him as an underachiever when his achieving by comparison is all over the board.

[hawk5ins]

Is so good at esplainin' what I try to say.

And I disagree COMPLETELY with the notion that Eddie was not a huge puncher at 175.

He had, what they call, "chilling" power. That he wasn't an AGGRESSIVE puncher, does not diminish the actual power in his punches.

The SEPT 1981 issue of Big Book of Boxing, echos this when they selected Mustafa as the premier puncher of the 175 pound division, edging out Saad Muhammad, Micheal Spinks and Bull Martin.

And Eddie's SIZE is 6'0" 1/2 inch. He was as tall as Marvin Johnson. He was an inch taller than Saad. He was a half inch shorter than James Scott. He was roughly an inch taller than Galindez, He was slightly taller than Jesse Burnett and slighly shorter than Bull Martin.

Spinks was TALL. Eddie was NOT short.

Hawk

[hagler04]

I agree with you about the first Griffin bout. I thought Toney won as well.

But he still looked like absolute shit in doing so.

And if we are discussing the best version of Eddie Mustafa Muhammad at 175, we are talking a whole 'nother league of fighter here. Muhammad? Griffin? Yikes.

Hags, While STILL having no idea what the best version of Toney was at Light Heavy, becuase no one really has yet to point out one to me yet, I suppose if you want to take an AVERAGE performing Muhammad and place him agianst some Mythical version of Toney at 175, as opposed to using the best version of Eddie, then I guess I could see a strugle for Eddie.

But At 175, Mustafa from the Johnson fight lets say, Easily overwhelms any version of Toney that fought at 175 and I'd also take A BEST version of Eddie over any 167 pound version of Toney you can come up with as well.

Agianst a 167 pound version of Toney? If we want to spot Eddie that advantage, I"ll take Eddie by stoppage.

Hawk

So Toney automatically drops down a level once he puts on 6 lbs?? THAT makes a lot of sense. Again, what top level Light HW did Langford ever beat while he was weighing 175? Does that mean he automatically loses to Bob Foster??

Eddie is the naturally bigger/stronger guy anyway, so put Toney at super-middle and I still think he can win a close decision on points.

[hagler04]

I agree with you about the first Griffin bout. I thought Toney won as well.

But he still looked like absolute shit in doing so.

And if we are discussing the best version of Eddie Mustafa Muhammad at 175, we are talking a whole 'nother league of fighter here. Muhammad? Griffin? Yikes.

Hags, While STILL having no idea what the best version of Toney was at Light Heavy, becuase no one really has yet to point out one to me yet, I suppose if you want to take an AVERAGE performing Muhammad and place him agianst some Mythical version of Toney at 175, as opposed to using the best version of Eddie, then I guess I could see a strugle for Eddie.

But At 175, Mustafa from the Johnson fight lets say, Easily overwhelms any version of Toney that fought at 175 and I'd also take A BEST version of Eddie over any 167 pound version of Toney you can come up with as well.

Agianst a 167 pound version of Toney? If we want to spot Eddie that advantage, I"ll take Eddie by stoppage.

Hawk

So Toney automatically drops down a level once he puts on 6 lbs?? THAT makes a lot of sense. Again, what top level Light HW did Langford ever beat while he was weighing 175? Does that mean he automatically loses to Bob Foster??

Eddie is the naturally bigger/stronger guy anyway, so put Toney at super-middle and I still think he can win a close decision on points.