Home News Current Champs WAIL! Encyclopedia
The Cyber Boxing Zone Message Board
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,283
    vCash
    500

    Ali-Bugner #1- Best example of "cutting off the ring"?

    Last night, I rewatched a recording I have of Ali-Bugner #1--it's the entire 12 rounds, not the 9 of 12 widely available.

    In watching closely, it was clear that Ali was stalking Bugner the entire 12 rounds, except for maybe 30 seconds total when he chose to dance and circle. But basically, he was walking down Bugner all 12 rounds. Bugner was the one circling, nearly always defensively.

    What struck me for the first time was how perfectly Ali cut the ring off on Bugner all night, every second. No matter how many steps Joe took to his left, Ali was instantly RIGHT in his face, able to throw punches that landed. Ali didn't "follow" Bugner as so many fighters do; in the most subtle and natural way, he simply leveraged skills honed over many years to cut the ring off on Bugner at every step. The more I paid attention to it, the more impressive it was.

    I've never seen this skill evidenced better by any fighter, yet Ali is never noted for it. Maybe because he had so many other fine abilities. Ray Leonard showed it against Hearns #1 most notably, but to me probably not quite as well; he did do some "following" that cost him extra paces . . . but maybe because Tommy was better and faster than a Joe Bugner. Wilfredo Gomez was probably the other boxer in modern times with this skill at such a high level that comes to mind, given his outstanding footwork generally.

    Wondering if anyone would care to weigh in on this admittedly very micro topic with other examples of excellence in this skill.
    Last edited by Michael Frank; 11-23-2007 at 05:46 PM.

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,444
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Interesting observations.

    I would like to see all 12 rounds since that's one fight of Ali's I don't have in it's entirety.

    Ali gets knocked as not being able to fight going forward largely due to his poor showing against Jimmy Young. I've never subscribed to that theory since Ali was in terrible shape for that fight and was past the point of being an offensive threat. It would be like saying Ali couldn't handle pressure then pointing to the first Spinks fight as an example.

    Sticking with Ali, in the Foreman fight, George cut off the ring but that was a 16 foot ring so I'm not sure if that's applicable. Ali also stopped tying to get away early on in that fight.

    I'm going to have to weigh on this for some prime examples.
    Last edited by 10-8; 11-23-2007 at 05:58 PM.

  3. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    628
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Foreman did some job cutting off the ring against Norton. And Hagler sure got tommy off his pitchers mound early as well. Another personal best had to be Curry against McCrory. Tyson against Mike Spinks was another one.

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Louth, Ireland
    Posts
    5,150
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    How about JC V Camacho....12 rds in your face non stop...Camacho hadn't a prayer in that one

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,444
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    George Foreman vs Joe King Roman!

  6. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,468
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Excellent examples from you gentleman,
    Foreman v Norton, Tyson v Spinks, JCC v Camacho et al.

    Joe Frazier was deadly in cutting that ring off and being up in your face, as was LaMotta, Hatton, Ralph Tiger Jones v Robinson, Dick Tiger v Carter,
    and you had to fight for your life with Chuvalo going to your body closing the gap and cutting off his opponents.

    So many other great fighters were very adept at this, especially Marciano.

    Ron

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,283
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    All great examples, guys.

    Not me trying to one-up anyone, but just a comment: watching Ali doing it to Bugner in their fight #1, I don't feel anyone has done it more naturally, with the most effect/plus least apparent effort, than Ali did that day. He seemed to barely move, yet Bugner was almost never out of his punching range.

    I do agree that all others mentioned above executed this skill very effectively.

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,615
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Jeff Fenech and JC Chavez come to mind for more recent practitioners of cutting off the ring. Not sure if any particular performances jump out as both did it well and often.

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,404
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Jeff Fenech was the first name that sprang to mind when I read the thread title too Sharkey.

    IN YOUR FACE as long as it took with Fenech. Relentless, if he didn't have such brittle hands, he'd have KO'd a lot mre fighters.

  10. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,404
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Jeff Fenech was the first name that sprang to mind when I read the thread title too Sharkey.

    IN YOUR FACE as long as it took with Fenech. Relentless, if he didn't have such brittle hands, he'd have KO'd a lot more fighters.

  11. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,783
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Dempsey with his fast legs and Duran vs Bucannon come to mind. Liston was pretty good at that also when he wanted to be.

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    In the Barrio, In La Puente,Ca.
    Posts
    12,026
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    There was non-better then our own Rodolfo "Gato" Gonzalez in cutting off the ring.

  13. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,444
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Good call from MF.

    This has recently been uploaded to youtube in it's entirety and I agree with MF. It has to be considered a closet classic for Ali fans.

    I can't recall another Ali fight in which Ali took the fight to his opponent for the entire 12 rounds, moved forward and never took a minute off. Ali was right in Bugner's face and it was a real business-like no bullshit approach by Ali who not only was in great shape, his jab and straight right were lightning and he was leading with the left hook more and sitting down well on his punches.

    An excellent post exile performance to rate beside Quarry II. I gave it to Ali by a shut-out then 2 of the judges only gave it to Ali by 3 points (8-5 in rounds). WTF?

    Anyway, Bugner was a tough guy for Ali to look GREAT against because of Joe's height, reach, strength, chin, stamina plus his negative fighting style...you just never saw guys fight Ali that way up on their toes moving away laterally and not being the first to commit in the exchanges, which is why it impressed me that Ali fought so effectively in a way he didn't usually fight.

    Overall, I just thought Ali looked particularly good at cutting off the ring, taking away escape routes, closing the gap and catching Bugner on the ropes.

  14. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,272
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Ali does a good job of being offensive but the best ever effort of cutting off the ring??? Huh?

    Bugner was a 22 year old kid in the biggest fight of his life. He showed up to basically last the distance . . .came on with some flurries here and there but wasn't really trying to win the fight and fought defensively the whole night. It's easier to cut off the ring vs someone whose not really fighting back and doesn't have the punch to deter you.

  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,283
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Hags,

    Re-watch the fight. I've never seen anyone cut the ring off better than did Ali this fight, in all the big fights that I've seen. In fact, no one else is close at any weight, at least in the many fights I've viewed. It was just a perfectly natural skill to Ali, it seemed.

    That's why I brought it up and started the thread. To say Bugner is somehow an incapable fighter (presumably the implication in your mentioning his age of 22) is selling him short. He wouldn't have gotten this fight if he was. Ali wasn't taking on bums at this point in his career.

  16. #16
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,444
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Hagler I agree with you that I don't consider it the best example of cutting off the ring...I'm pointing to it as an example of an Ali attribute that was rarely seen and as MF has pointed out done very effectively by Ali.

    However, lowballing Bugner to prove a point doesn't cut it. In Bugner's very next fight he gave a damn good account of himself against a very determined Joe Frazier, staggered Joe and lost a pretty close fight. Bugner was a legitimate top 10 guy. Good boxer, strong and an excellent chin.

  17. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,034
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Foreman v Joe King Roman. Yeah, Jose simply couldn't get away from Foreman, not even after he hit the deck.

    Seriously, Foreman was excellent in cutting off the ring. Imo, Norton was actually doing quite well against a Foreman in efficient, straight line pursuit. However, it took only punch to initiate Norton's undoing. A long, swinging right that caught Kenny going away. After that, it was all down hill for an already tight & nervous Norton.

    I'll have to check out Ali - Bugner #1 again. Have to admit, as respectable a boxer as he was, I didn't perceive Bugner as a good enough mover to uphold any opponent's relative success in cutting the ring off on him.

  18. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,272
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Frank
    Hags,

    Re-watch the fight. I've never seen anyone cut the ring off better than did Ali this fight, in all the big fights that I've seen. In fact, no one else is close at any weight, at least in the many fights I've viewed. It was just a perfectly natural skill to Ali, it seemed.

    That's why I brought it up and started the thread. To say Bugner is somehow an incapable fighter (presumably the implication in your mentioning his age of 22) is selling him short. He wouldn't have gotten this fight if he was. Ali wasn't taking on bums at this point in his career.
    I'm not trying to say Bugner was a bum, but yes having watched the fight I don't think he was there really trying to win, he was trying to survive. Bugner had issues with taking risks his whole career. It's how he could lose to such an inferior opponent like Bodell. Bugner fought better vs Frazier b/c I think he was tired of hearing Britons talk about his lack of guts (he'd been public enemy #1 there ever since the Cooper fight, and I also don't think they liked his cockiness/playboy lifestyle). But in the Ali rematch he went back to his old ways, in what was frankly a pathetic effort for the heavyweight title.

    I would say a much better clinic of cutting off the ring is Frazier vs Ali in their first fight, or Frazier v Ellis, or Qawi v Saad etc.

  19. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,444
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Quote Originally Posted by hagler04
    I'm not trying to say Bugner was a bum, but yes having watched the fight I don't think he was there really trying to win, he was trying to survive. Bugner had issues with taking risks his whole career.
    In fairness to Bugner he came out aggressively against Ali, and moving forward but received a pretty good cut in the first round from a hard Ali right. He switched gears at that point and got up on his toes and started moving. Ali had predicted a 7th round KO and was all business and I'm pretty sure Bugner was concerned about the cut worsening.

    I still don't know how this was a 3 point fight on two cards though.

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,283
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Quote Originally Posted by hagler04
    I'm not trying to say Bugner was a bum, but yes having watched the fight I don't think he was there really trying to win, he was trying to survive. Bugner had issues with taking risks his whole career. It's how he could lose to such an inferior opponent like Bodell. Bugner fought better vs Frazier b/c I think he was tired of hearing Britons talk about his lack of guts (he'd been public enemy #1 there ever since the Cooper fight, and I also don't think they liked his cockiness/playboy lifestyle). But in the Ali rematch he went back to his old ways, in what was frankly a pathetic effort for the heavyweight title.

    I would say a much better clinic of cutting off the ring is Frazier vs Ali in their first fight, or Frazier v Ellis, or Qawi v Saad etc.
    You know, those last 3 examples are good ones, yet to me Ali did it so much more naturally, so subtlely, that it was like it was second nature and not something learned. Frazier and Qawi looked to some extent (to me) to be following their man a bit in a circle and taking extra steps, but not Ali in this fight. Believe me, I have my qualms with Ali, but as to this skill of his that I'd never noticed before--since he's usually the boxer moving away--seeing him exhibit it in the Bugner #1 bout was sort of like discovering a hidden gem.

    And you're not kidding, the 2nd Ali-Bugner fight was a terrible bout, Bugner should have done more to try to wrest the title, IMO.

    Not arguing with any of you guys who like how Foreman cut off the ring, but to me, Ali was infinitely better at it, and more natural, based on this bout. Yet, maybe the fact that I can only cite the Bugner bout, whereas George did it against many foes, inures to George's favor.
    Last edited by Michael Frank; 05-17-2009 at 11:41 PM.

  21. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Washington DC
    Posts
    1,527
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharkey
    Jeff Fenech and JC Chavez come to mind for more recent practitioners of cutting off the ring. Not sure if any particular performances jump out as both did it well and often.
    Chavez - Rosario: One round. very late. Rosario did not get out of his corner. Chavez beat on this man the entire round in that same spot.

    Joe Louis. Schmeling II: Joe basically moved Schmeling to the ropes and finished him there (without throwing one punch to get him there mind you)

  22. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    407
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    jack johnson & louis were the best ive seen.

  23. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    628
    vCash
    500

    Re: "Cutting off the ring" - Best example

    2 hall of famers I've been re-watching lately are very underrated at this; Napoles and especially Monzon.

    Man, that Monzon was sure a tough guy to solve for any length of time in there. he'd start out slow and methodical allright, but his footwork, range and balance were always right on. But he'd back up. Then, he'd circle usually to the right. And just occassio0nally step in with punches. Then about the 7th round, he'd spend a far greater % going forward then retreating. Next thing you kinew, it was circling backwards in like the 10th round. Then, he'd change gears again and go forward some more in the later rounds.

    He'd change things up 3 times or more during a fight and it was not the opponent forcing things, just Monzon leading him. He wasn't on his toes but he still had the angle he wanted and even did it in the clinches. Incredible. It's really a pleasure to watch and it must've been real real tough on those opposing corners when coming up with their 15 round strategies to fight the guy.

    I know Angie Dundee likes to call it it slipping and sliding. Monzon and to a lessor degree Napoles, just seemed to be millimeters outside of their opponent trouble zone, but still within their optimal striking distance. Guys like
    Whitaker and Ali seemed to be a foot or more away from their opponents trouble zone, but that Monzon fought opponents much closer than that. What a skill and you sure do need some tools to pull it off.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
News Current Champs WAIL! Encyclopedia Links Home