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Thread: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

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    PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    The fantasy section has gone very quiet of late.
    Seeing as PBF is the man in the news and the most
    recent big big name to fight, I thought I'd pair
    him against Sweet Pea at 140-147lbs...

    I think this is a very very intriguing match with
    two classy boxers with speed, grace, elegance,
    footwork, balance etc...But who wins over 12rds??

    I will say PBF, due to that extra speed and harder hitting...

    If this match has already been discussed, please BUMP...

    I think it may have been, with some saying tht PBF's
    career was far from over and that it was too early to
    pit them against each other. Now I think PBF has
    peaked and it's time he should be considered a top
    10 fighter of the last 30 years, across all weights...
    Last edited by walshb; 12-17-2007 at 09:10 AM.

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    No one that throws one punch at a time 30 or 40 times a round is going to beat Pernell Whitaker, I don't care how fast they are or how good their defense is.

    Well, no one at 140 or 147, anyway.

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    Amen Sweet

    I agree whole heartedly.

    It's becoming a reoccuring theme with us.

    Hawk

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    I think this would be a fascinating match. However, I think a prime Sweet Pea brings too much to the table and wins by decision or late round stoppage.

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    Another vote for Pea.

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    I'm actually not sure about this one. Let's not let the Floyd hate (and I hate him too) cloud some judgement. Yes, a 147 lb juggernaut like Basillo takes Floyd's heart and eats it, but this is Whitaker. Very much a fighter in the mold of Floyd . . .a defensive slickster who frustrates good orthodox fighters out of their game. Whitaker WOULD NOT get away with his usual razz-ma-tazz on Mayweather . . .Floyd is not an old Chavez or Azumah Nelson. At the same time, Whitaker is not Zab Judah or Ricky Hatton. I see them having equal stamina, Floyd having the edge in handspeed and punching power, and Whitaker perhaps having more tricks up his sleeve. Fascinating, and EXTREMELY boring, fight. I see Floyd edging it with the cleaner harder punches. Have to call it as I see it.

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    Question: Does Whitaker's southpaw stance throw off Mayweather?

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    Hags

    IF Floyd had a significant workrate about his offense, I could see the view that you have on this bout.

    But the single shot potshot strategy simply is not going to work on Whitaker IMO.

    I would not argue agianst Floyd having superior power at 147 than Whitaker (who didn't?), But I would not say he had superior power to Buddy McGirt and IMO, Floyd at 147 was not a better fighter than was McGirt.

    If this bout moves down to where both are more at thier "natural" weight, at 135, then I think we only see a Superior version of Whitaker than the 147 version and I think that one is better than the 135 pound version of Floyd as well.

    This would no doubt be a Painful bout to watch (Sorry Juan. Seeing two guys trying to outthink each other in the ring, is not my cup of tea), so I will not spend too much time arguing my point.

    Hawk

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    Whitaker's jab would win him this.It's just a much better weapon than Floyds and far more suited to wracking up points and keeping fighters off-balance.


    at Welter i think it would be closer.Not a big fan of Pernell as a Welter, but he should still be good enough to win.

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    Quote Originally Posted by hagler04
    I'm actually not sure about this one. Let's not let the Floyd hate (and I hate him too) cloud some judgement. Yes, a 147 lb juggernaut like Basillo takes Floyd's heart and eats it, but this is Whitaker. Very much a fighter in the mold of Floyd . . .a defensive slickster who frustrates good orthodox fighters out of their game. Whitaker WOULD NOT get away with his usual razz-ma-tazz on Mayweather . . .Floyd is not an old Chavez or Azumah Nelson. At the same time, Whitaker is not Zab Judah or Ricky Hatton. I see them having equal stamina, Floyd having the edge in handspeed and punching power, and Whitaker perhaps having more tricks up his sleeve. Fascinating, and EXTREMELY boring, fight. I see Floyd edging it with the cleaner harder punches. Have to call it as I see it.
    I don't hate Mayweather. I don't feel I underrate him nor do I believe I am less than realistic about his prowess. For me, it will take a physically stronger dogged foe to beat upon Whitaker and throw him off his defensive masterplan. OR, a lanky, powerful foe with physically dominating tools who can fire from long range and manuever Pea where he would like him to be could do the trick as well.

    I feel Floyd is neither. Floyd may have physical superiority but it isn't like he is some stalk and pound-of-flesh guy. I can see the legs and defense of Pea allowing him to take advantage of PBF's penchant for matadorism. Sure FLoyd could win, but I will go with Pea.

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    Re: Hags

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    IF Floyd had a significant workrate about his offense, I could see the view that you have on this bout.

    But the single shot potshot strategy simply is not going to work on Whitaker IMO.

    I would not argue agianst Floyd having superior power at 147 than Whitaker (who didn't?), But I would not say he had superior power to Buddy McGirt and IMO, Floyd at 147 was not a better fighter than was McGirt.

    If this bout moves down to where both are more at thier "natural" weight, at 135, then I think we only see a Superior version of Whitaker than the 147 version and I think that one is better than the 135 pound version of Floyd as well.

    This would no doubt be a Painful bout to watch (Sorry Juan. Seeing two guys trying to outthink each other in the ring, is not my cup of tea), so I will not spend too much time arguing my point.

    Hawk
    I think this fight is better suited for 140, where both fighters were better and more effective. Remember, at 147 vs Oscar Sweet Pea wasn't throwing very much either, and Floyd's work-rate at 135-140 was decent (see Gatti, Corley, N'dou fights).

    Come on, McGirt was a solid fighter but Mayweather is a much tougher (and harder to hit) task than Buddy. I just don't see what Whitaker has in this matchup to put his stamp on the bout.

    Either at 135 or 140, I see a close, tactical bout that is ultimately decided by Floyd's harder, cleaner, more "eye-catching" shots.

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    Hags

    I'm not convinced at 147, that is the case between McGirt and Mayweather. McGirt's win over Simon Brown is leaps and bounds more impressive than anything Mayweather has done at 147. So IMO, I think a win over McGirt gives me a better feel for Pea at 147 than I do Floyd.

    Pea's performance agianst Oscar may not have been stellar (Pernell was defintely on the way out), but IMO it was a Winning performance, albeit by thismuch. I'm not convinced AT ALL, that Floyd beats THAT de la Hoya. IMO he Barely beat the worn down version that he did face.

    Whitaker is simply a much better fighter at 135, than he was at 147. I don't see a move down in weight to be in Floyd's favor, even though he himself was better at 135 than what I've seen at 147. THe LOSS to Castillo included.

    Whitaker at 140 is only a THEORY on how good he was, becuase he was BARELY there. And Floyds opp at 140 was PATHETIC. So it's almost impossible to JUDGE them accurately at that weight. But gun to my head, I would say Pernell would have the edge at 140, based on the Harold Brazier performance alone.

    The Jab and southpaw stance, defense of Pernell's and lack of work rate from Mayweather (Matadorism. Perfect description), is why I would favor Pernell.

    Hawk

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    I would go with Mayweather...cause I just dont see Whitacker having enough of an offensive attack to beat Mayweather. When I look at this I revert back to Whitackers fight vs DLH, and that Whitacker was tough to hit,,but he did not do much hitting himself, and I believe Mayweather would come into the fight knowing he would have to employ a increased work rate to outpoint Whitacker.

    This is a tough fight to pick cause neither of them exactly burn up the punch states in the case of volume and they both are hard to hit. I think based off of the fact that Mayweather is more accurate, generally has made adjustments to win, and Whitacker has nothing to keep Mayweather off of him physically...I just lead slightly towards mayweather....


    This could be the most boring fight in history.

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    Hmmm, I seem to recall one Diobelis Hurtado suffering a pretty scary stoppage after jumping on Sweet Pea earlier. Those blows weren't exactly of the powder puff variety, either!

    So, although I may be wrong, I think that Pea could make it interesting, and--with his skill set and wiskers that allowed him to survive Tito Trinidad's bombs in the twilight of his career--I think he had what was needed to dismantle Mayweather's undefeated status.

    Either way, I don't feel a great need to argue these points.

    Regards,


    Juan

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    Quote Originally Posted by wpink
    I would go with Mayweather...cause I just dont see Whitacker having enough of an offensive attack to beat Mayweather. When I look at this I revert back to Whitackers fight vs DLH, and that Whitacker was tough to hit,,but he did not do much hitting himself, and I believe Mayweather would come into the fight knowing he would have to employ a increased work rate to outpoint Whitacker.
    Whitaker was past his prime in the DLH fight. A much better gauge on how he would do are the Chavez and McGirt fights, because that was a 3 year younger Whitaker.

    BUT if we must look at the DLH fight, let's do it.

    Whitaker showed lack of offense there? Guess what, that past prime no offense Whitaker STILL hit a prime DLH more than what Floyd hit a past prime lumbering DLH.

    And that Whitaker STILL took less flush shots than did Floyd against a past prime lumbering DLH. That Whitaker NEVER got caught on the ropes, and that Whitaker NEVER got hit with more than a punch at a time against DLH. Can Floyd say the same?

    This is a tough fight to pick cause neither of them exactly burn up the punch states in the case of volume and they both are hard to hit. I think based off of the fact that Mayweather is more accurate, generally has made adjustments to win, and Whitacker has nothing to keep Mayweather off of him physically...I just lead slightly towards mayweather....
    Neither burned up the punch stats, but Whitaker did land about 520 punches on Cardona, which is probably more punches than Floyd throws in a fight, and did land at something like 68 percent. Whitaker also landed 300+ on McGirt and Chavez. If you're looking at activity, Whitaker is much more active. He throws and lands more.

    You could make an argument that Floyd lands more telling blows than Whitaker does, though I don't think the disparity there is that marked really, but one thing you can't argue is that they have the same volume. Whitaker throws and lands much more.
    Last edited by sweet_scientist; 12-19-2007 at 12:38 AM.

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    Sweet scientist....

    The Chavez fight with Sweet Pea was a great great fight, one that he got robbed. However, lets not confuse Chavez with Mayweather. Not saying who is better, but simply Chavez does not offer the hard to hit target that Maywether does nor is he the boxer..... Sweet pea fought a great fight, and relished the chance to fight a great fighter like Chavez....who FOLLOWED HIM AROUND THE RING....He literally followed Sweet pea and was an ideal opponent...Applying pressure but pressure off of the jab and not the swarming relentless Duran like Pressure or Possiblly what a Hawk would offer. No, Chavez was a perfect opponent style wise for Sweet Pea, not to say his total package ( power, fighting heart, jaw,,etc) did not make him a serious threat or even favored...However one simply needs to look at the Taylor fight and you can see that speed frusterated him, but Taylor hit and be there, vs Sweat Pea and for that much Mayweather who would hit and not be there for the counter.

    As Whitacker your right, he did not take as many punches as Mayweather, which is not much at all, as they both minimize the punches they take...I am not disputing that...What I am focusing on is their offensive abilities..and what I have seen from both of them, leads me to believe that Mayweather has a bit more than Sweat Pea. I dont think Sweat Pea was at his best vs DLH but I think DLH and Sweat pea really had the style to frusterate each other, no matter when they fought....Thus leaves me the blue print for Mayweather as he they both would become frusteraated with each other...a lot of missing going on...However I do believe that Mayweather would make some adjustments, and maybe land more crispt one punch attacks..and it would go to the scorecard and jabs,,and those instances where one or the other (imo mayweather) would land a couple more power punches would win the fight.....

    You did correclty point out that in some fights Whitacker became offensive and had large punch stats...I still believe we are talking night and day when your comparing the targets he is throwing at...vs Mayweather.

    I give them both great speed advantages.leaning towards Mayweather..and last but not least Mayweather has the height and reach advantage.....So these things I believe would tilt the close chess match towards mayweather.
    Last edited by wpink; 12-19-2007 at 01:13 AM.

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    Quote Originally Posted by wpink
    Sweet scientist....

    The Chavez fight with Sweet Pea was a great great fight, one that he got robbed. However, lets not confuse Chavez with Mayweather. Not saying who is better, but simply Chavez does not offer the hard to hit target that Maywether does nor is he the boxer..... Sweet pea fought a great fight, and relished the chance to fight a great fighter like Chavez....who FOLLOWED HIM AROUND THE RING....He literally followed Sweet pea and was an ideal opponent...Applying pressure but pressure off of the jab and not the swarming relentless Duran like Pressure or Possiblly what a Hawk would offer. No, Chavez was a perfect opponent style wise for Sweet Pea, not to say his total package ( power, fighting heart, jaw,,etc) did not make him a serious threat or even favored...However one simply needs to look at the Taylor fight and you can see that speed frusterated him, but Taylor hit and be there, vs Sweat Pea and for that much Mayweather who would hit and not be there for the counter.

    As Whitacker your right, he did not take as many punches as Mayweather, which is not much at all, as they both minimize the punches they take...I am not disputing that...What I am focusing on is their offensive abilities..and what I have seen from both of them, leads me to believe that Mayweather has a bit more than Sweat Pea. I dont think Sweat Pea was at his best vs DLH but I think DLH and Sweat pea really had the style to frusterate each other, no matter when they fought....Thus leaves me the blue print for Mayweather as he they both would become frusteraated with each other...a lot of missing going on...However I do believe that Mayweather would make some adjustments, and maybe land more crispt one punch attacks..and it would go to the scorecard and jabs,,and those instances where one or the other (imo mayweather) would land a couple more power punches would win the fight.....

    You did correclty point out that in some fights Whitacker became offensive and had large punch stats...I still believe we are talking night and day when your comparing the targets he is throwing at...vs Mayweather.

    I give them both great speed advantages.leaning towards Mayweather..and last but not least Mayweather has the height and reach advantage.....So these things I believe would tilt the close chess match towards mayweather.
    Great breakdown as to how I see their fight going. A lot of missing and posing etc etc. Mayweather is faster and maybe Pea has shown he is busier, but being busy or trying to be busy V PBF, can lead to you being caught.
    PBF will adapt his workrate to suit the fight. Both men have excellent footwork and defense. I don't think defense is the key here. I think single scoring shots is the key and speed. Both I feel will benefit PBF. He is bigger also and will not be outfoxed.

    Comparing Pea's fIghts with Buddy and JC are irrelevant. JC is tailor made for Pea and PBF.....

    PBF is a much harder puzzle than Buddy. He's better defensively and he's faster and cuter.....

    Pea's main weapon is his superior jab and if he can keep PBF at distance, he could win. I think PBF will adapt the better in this fight and
    frustrate Pea.....
    Last edited by walshb; 12-19-2007 at 06:40 AM.

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    Sweet

    Tough to argue this:

    "BUT if we must look at the DLH fight, let's do it.

    Whitaker showed lack of offense there? Guess what, that past prime no offense Whitaker STILL hit a prime DLH more than what Floyd hit a past prime lumbering DLH.

    And that Whitaker STILL took less flush shots than did Floyd against a past prime lumbering DLH. That Whitaker NEVER got caught on the ropes, and that Whitaker NEVER got hit with more than a punch at a time against DLH. Can Floyd say the same?"


    And since it's absolutely true and I see the same outcome between Pernell and Floyd, I won't.

    Hawk

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    Quote Originally Posted by wpink
    Sweet scientist....

    The Chavez fight with Sweet Pea was a great great fight, one that he got robbed. However, lets not confuse Chavez with Mayweather. Not saying who is better, but simply Chavez does not offer the hard to hit target that Maywether does nor is he the boxer..... Sweet pea fought a great fight, and relished the chance to fight a great fighter like Chavez....who FOLLOWED HIM AROUND THE RING....He literally followed Sweet pea and was an ideal opponent...Applying pressure but pressure off of the jab and not the swarming relentless Duran like Pressure or Possiblly what a Hawk would offer. No, Chavez was a perfect opponent style wise for Sweet Pea, not to say his total package ( power, fighting heart, jaw,,etc) did not make him a serious threat or even favored...However one simply needs to look at the Taylor fight and you can see that speed frusterated him, but Taylor hit and be there, vs Sweat Pea and for that much Mayweather who would hit and not be there for the counter.

    As Whitacker your right, he did not take as many punches as Mayweather, which is not much at all, as they both minimize the punches they take...I am not disputing that...What I am focusing on is their offensive abilities..and what I have seen from both of them, leads me to believe that Mayweather has a bit more than Sweat Pea. I dont think Sweat Pea was at his best vs DLH but I think DLH and Sweat pea really had the style to frusterate each other, no matter when they fought....Thus leaves me the blue print for Mayweather as he they both would become frusteraated with each other...a lot of missing going on...However I do believe that Mayweather would make some adjustments, and maybe land more crispt one punch attacks..and it would go to the scorecard and jabs,,and those instances where one or the other (imo mayweather) would land a couple more power punches would win the fight.....

    You did correclty point out that in some fights Whitacker became offensive and had large punch stats...I still believe we are talking night and day when your comparing the targets he is throwing at...vs Mayweather.

    I give them both great speed advantages.leaning towards Mayweather..and last but not least Mayweather has the height and reach advantage.....So these things I believe would tilt the close chess match towards mayweather.
    wpink, I didn't mean to imply that Whitaker's opponents were similar to Mayweather. But you made a point about the volume of punches thrown and said that neither really threw a lot. That's what I was concerned about, because it simply isn't true. Whitaker has thrown and landed more as a welter than Floyd has. Floyd's nothing like the rest of Whitaker's comp? Sure, but the rest of Floyd's comp isn't anything like Whitaker either, and Floyd still hasn't been throwing or landing as much as Pea.

    Will Whitaker's punch output drop against Mayweather? Most likely, Floyd doesn't like to engage unless forced to and he likes the quick pot shot in and out routine. I personally think that style won't work on Whitaker because unlike the rest of Floyd's opponents, Pea has the defensive ability to make those quick single shots miss. If Mayweather can't hit him with single shots, which I suspect he won't be able to, Floyd will be in big trouble in the fight. If Whitaker can't hit Mayweather with single shots he'll probably still find a way to do it by doing what he does best, throwing in combination. Maybe not as frequently as he would against others, but enough to win most rounds.
    Last edited by sweet_scientist; 12-19-2007 at 09:37 AM.

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    One thing is certain and that is Whitaker threw more punches in his fights than PBF.
    Does this mean he has an advantage if he meets PBF, not necessarily, because what's the
    point in throwing shots that won't be landing. Pea did what he had to do V Buddy and Chavez and Oscar etc....He will without doubt be facing a fighter who can match him for speed, defense and ring generalship. He will also be facing a bigger man and a man who hits slightly harder and a man who is very hard himself to hit clean........

    When assessing these two, I think we can throw out what they did or didn't do against different styled fighters and focus primarily on their skills and assets when up against each other....Each man is facing a fighter who they have never faced before, style wise and IMO, it's the fighter who is faster, harder and a little cuter who wins this one......

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    Quote Originally Posted by walshb
    Great breakdown as to how I see their fight going. A lot of missing and posing etc etc. Mayweather is faster and maybe Pea has shown he is busier, but being busy or trying to be busy V PBF, can lead to you being caught.
    PBF will adapt his workrate to suit the fight. Both men have excellent footwork and defense. I don't think defense is the key here. I think single scoring shots is the key and speed. Both I feel will benefit PBF. He is bigger also and will not be outfoxed.

    Comparing Pea's fIghts with Buddy and JC are irrelevant. JC is tailor made for Pea and PBF.....

    PBF is a much harder puzzle than Buddy. He's better defensively and he's faster and cuter.....

    Pea's main weapon is his superior jab and if he can keep PBF at distance, he could win. I think PBF will adapt the better in this fight and
    frustrate Pea.....
    How is Chavez tailor made for PBF? He doesn't fight like Ricky Hatton or Jesus Chavez. Much more like Jose Luis Castillo, but quicker, with better defense and better punch selection. Is such a guy tailor made for Floyd?

    As for Buddy McGirt, he isn't as defensively sharp as Floyd but as Hawk has pointed out, he does have more power than Floyd, and when it comes to speed, I wouldn't say Floyd is much faster. Also, Buddy is a much better combination puncher than Floyd.

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    I love JCC, but guys like Pea and PBF and Mosley are simply bad style match ups over 12rds. Too elusive, fast, accurate and defensive for JCC...AT 147 Julio was above average, PBF is good and I think JCC doesn't bring enough power at 147lbs over 12rds to take Floyd.
    He will be chasing a ghost who will pot shot him all night and pose too much of a puzzle.

    I can't see Floyd having as much trouble with JCC as Pea did, and Pea didn't have much and won a deserved decision I thought. I think PBF will land more effectively and harder to JCC than Pea.....He will be hitting him with faster, harder combos and moving all night....

    The bottom line is that JCC is too slow to really beat Mayweather over 12rds....

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    OK,,,I tried to avoid this topic..but here it is..I keep hearning that Castillo beat Mayweather..I saw the punchstate line, my partner is the biggest Mayweather fan (from grand rapids michigan) ever...we argue who would win between Ray and Mayweather.....I sit down and honestly I believe when scoring rounds of the castillo fight I was wanting to give rounds to Castillo cause he came forward..There were rounds I still have my sheet of paper where I scored it that I had to look at 2-3 times and most of them I gave to castillo simply cuz...it more likely was a draw in those rounds..bu(3,4,9) some I know if the viewer were mayweather fans..they would give those rounds to Mayweather...The point is that Castillo fight was a close fight but did not clearly beat Mayweather,,,as has been pointed out on here many times you can not simply go by punch states...I even had that in the back of my mind and I honestly do not like Mayweather,,but Castillo did not clearly beat him...

    That being said I makes sense what your saying Scientist and the only way to find out is if they fought,,(chavez Mayweather) but Chavez got his ass handed to him by Whitacker...he looked very disheartened in the later rounds... and when he fought taylor yes he was mounting a comeback but speed and combinations provided a blueprint then how to beat him... so one could only assume that Mayweather who has great defense and speed would be fighing Chavez the same way....

    As for Mayweather vs whitacker...I cant call it...it is close I tend to lead towards mayweather...Yes mayweather faught a much slower and not at his peak Dlh...but also a dlh who had a right hand when he clearly was a one armed fighter the 1st night...did that make a differnce vs either of them. I dont think so...Neither in fact all 3 involved did not show a ability to dominate the other...So I dont think we can gather much other than they were frusterated in those fight..all parties involved.

    They both are so good defensivly and have the ability to counter from odd angles..that either one of them could have picked up on a habit the other does in training and come prepared to repeatedly capitalize on it...sort of like how hopkins picked up on Tito's habit at dipppng before he throws the left hook...When it came fight night the very tool of trinidads that we thought would be a assett turned out to be a big liability.

    Sweet you point out another good thing...That the one punch lead..either a left hook or right lead is something that Sweat pea could have mayweather missing all nght long..your right,,but it could also be the surpise adjustment of the fight hwo mayweather was able to adjust and start scoring on that punch in the later rounds...

    This fight is tooo close for me to call....I will go with Mayweather or a draw...

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    Jose Luis Castillo

    Gave Floyd a very difficult time TWICE at Lightweight, and I had him beating Floyd the first time and had the second bout a draw (I know, I'm in minority, but none the less, the return bout was ANYTHING but easy), and Chavez is a SUPERIOR version of Castillo, yet Julio is tailor made for Mayweather. How does anyone figure that?

    Castillo made Life VERY troublesome for Mayweather. Is it NOW being suggested that Castillo is superior to Chavez? If so, in what department?

    Pernell having success agianst Chavez does NOT mean Mayweather does, for the simple reason that Mayweather does not fight like Whitaker. If it's being suggested they are mirror images of eachother, I think some video watching is in order.

    Hawk

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    That's the problem with subbing one fighter for another. When it can be done to gloss over and prove a point it's great.

    When someone challenges the assumption, or brings up another sub to the contrary, it breaks down.

    Chavez was better than Castillo. Castillo gave Floyd problems. It doesn't mean Chavez would beat Floyd because he is better than Castillo, BUT it would be a good point to refute the notion that beating Castillo makes beating Chavez likely.

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    Great point Sharks

    I think the styles that Castillo and Chavez had were similar, when Chavez chose to fight in that mode. He certainly was a more diverse and talented fighter than Castillo. Because Castillo gave Floyd difficulties, I see it as reasonable to conclude, although it is not an exact science, that Chavez would likewise give him the same difficulties and IMO, improve upon the performance of Castillo agianst Mayweather.

    But MORE to the point here, as you point out, it is VERY logical to refute the notion that Chavez is "tailor made" for Mayweather, when you consider the difficulties that Castillo posed for Floyd.

    And to add on the "substitute" process a bit further, Floyd does not really fight like Pernell, so the inimation that BECAUSE Pernell posed difficulties to Chavez, it does not lend into certainty that Floyd would do likewise. ESPECIALLY if you consider the issues Floyd had with a fighter similar to Chavez's style.

    Chavez to Castillo, while superior IMO, Is much more of a "mirror" image than is Whitaker (who I also consider superior) to Mayweather.

    Hawk

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    Chavez was also a very very good defensive fighter until he began to rise in weight (and aged) and became more of the wade-through-the-gunfire-machine. Then he was merely good on the defensive side.

    I cannot say the same for Castillo.

    The points sweet and Hawk made are more than convincing to me. I will again state Floyd's losing to Pea is not a foregone conclusion by any stretch. I think Pea has to make fewer changes ot what he normally does, because his whole deal was defusing what the opponent did. Whereas Floyd's bag is filled with being superior to the point of fighting pretty much whatever way he chooses to.

    The wrench is more likely thrown into Floyd's machinery in this match-up.

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    Their points are convincing to me too. I do not think that you can simply substitute fighters either. Toughnes, mental toughness comes into play sometimes..certain little bad habits..etc... So many variable come into play..one fighter holds his hands down low..or dips to the left after he throws a jab that fighter x can counter off of...another fighter has just enough reach to land shots that another figher the same style may not because their reach is shorter....Many things..

    All that said,,stylistically Chavez had problems with3 fighters that had speed, Randall, Whitacker, Taylor..... Mayweather has speed and can box, has more reach and has just as good if not better defense than the others. Does that mean he would win...If we knew the answer then they would not have to get in the ring....We dont know, we all take our most educated guess off of things we observe,,,and that is the fun of it..

    Once again a very very good debate with some very intelligent posters..All Sharkey, Sweet Science, hawk..I do enjoy the intelligence level on this board as apposed to others..

    Hawk..No SRL comparisons...lol

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    Problem is

    Pernell does not fight like Mayweather. Meldrick Taylor does not fight like Mayweather. ANd CERTAINLY Randall does not fight like Taylor.

    EACH however did have consistant volume about their attacks, albeit much differently from eachother. But the output was the name of the game that offset Chavez. Whitaker with the constant jab. Taylor with speedy volume combinations and Randall with more powerful yet consistant combinations than the other two. But let's also concede with Randall, that Chavez was on the tail end of a magnificent career. Personally, I would replace Juan Laporte with Randall here in demonstrating a fighter who gave Chavez fits. BUt Laporte and Mayweather are about as different as can be. So let's not.

    Floyd's offense does NOT consist of true cominations. It's a safety first, potshot from the outside, approach. It has been shown, VERY effectively, that this approach can be neutralized with Effective Agressive Pressure, A Consistant body attack and a high tempo workrate.

    All of whihc Chavez has shown the ability to do, IMO, in a MUCH superior fashion than Jose Luis Castillo.

    Thus MY conclusions.

    Hawk

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    Re: PBF V Sweet Pea.....140-147lbs

    Mayweather has speed and can box, has more reach and has just as good if not better defense than the others.
    Than Pernell Whitaker? Wow, and I thought I was hard on Pernell....

    Learn something new every day.

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