Heavyweight chins, Tyson's place?

[Michael Frank]

As to Hawk5ins' point, "*What performance, prior to the Tyson fight, agianst a reputable fighter did Buster demonstrate Power that we could categorize as reputable."

My reply (as a non, never-was-a-Tyson fan, and not doing any revisionism), is that Douglas really hadn't been in the ring with reputable guys (in their primes) before Tyson anyway, other than one: Tucker. Page and others were well past their primes.

So, he didn't have the chance to demonstrate power against any "reputable" types save Tucker, against whom he performed very well before the inexplicable ending. Had he KOd every previous opponent, you might still have replied that none were any good.

Further, LOSING to people isn't the same as NOT HAVING POWER. Earnie Shavers lost a lot of fights; but who here thinks he didn't have power??? One has to be in a position to demonstrate the power, and by skill or luck land on another's chin. We observers can SEE the power, as we did in Tyson-Douglas... jolted chins, wobbled knees, being stopped in one's tracks, etc., are signs of power demonstrable over the airwaves.

That's why I don't look at a guy's less-than-average KO percentage and assume he has little power; he may simply be someone with respectable power who chooses to fight in a way that doesn't maximize a quantity of power shots. Ali, for example, had excellent heavyweight power, and won most of his big fights by KO/TKO. BUT, he elected to use a style with lots of movement from which punches could not be his most powerful. Doesn't make him an unable or underachieving puncher.

[wildhawke11]

I think to much is being made of the Douglas fight. It happened, a suburb performance from someone i think we all regarded as an also ran. Now looking at the guys Tyson has been in the ring with and taken full blooded shots from. I would say his chin has been well tested and proven to be very good. Let's be honest with his style of fighting he is going to be tested a lot more then say a pure boxer.

Wonder how many times Marciano, Dempsey and more so Joe Louis would have gone down if they had faced the big bangers Tyson has been in with. Hell as it is Louis hit double figures As a person i cant stand Tyson but lets be fair he had a very good chin. My own opinion is if Ali had a grade one chin then Mike Tyson has to be classed as a two with Louis a three.
Again Just My Opinion
Happy New Year My Boxing Friends

[robertk]

Nobody is saying the guy had a mediocre chin. I'm also saying it isn't up there with the elite guys either. And with Tyson the issue isn't so much the whiskers to absorb a single punch, it was the ability to absorb throughout a fight. Tyson is far better at the former.

And another cause/effect of ability to take a punch is how it affects a guy the remainder of a bout. With Tyson, it was very big & easy to gauge and he lost a lot of that swarmer mind set. Other guys like Holmes or Marciano or Dempsey/etc. could get hit and alter their style to not get hit again or just shake it off as if it never happened. Tyson always showed the effects of getting hit & really wasn't in a back and forth type bout where he had to demonstrate the capability to absorb clean punches until the Douglas fight.

[walshb]

to disprove anything?

I've ASKED for Proof of 3 things:

*What significant punches were landed on Tyson during the 1st 7 rounds that Mike walked right through?

*What significant punches did he take in the final 3 that didn't hurt, rock or Ko Tyson?

*What performance, prior to the Tyson fight, agianst a reputable fighter did Buster demonstrate Power that we could categorize as reputable.

I ask these three questions, and for some reason I have an obligation to DIS-Prove something? Really?

What exactly would be my reason or motivation to do so, given I have spent three pages asking the same questions, that no one has been willing to answer with anything other than a 30,000 foot generalization?

I guess now I can be labled with the tag, that others have been doing to my pretty straight forward questions.

Hawk

This thread seems to have taken two directions...

Tyson's ability to absorb a power shot and
Douglas's suppossed power??

Hawk, you do not ask impossible questions and they are
answerable, despite you claiming they are NOT being answered...

But you did claim that Tyson's chin takes a ding because Douglas
KO'd him...Yes he did KO him EVENTUALLY...

But I'll ask anyone to say that had any of the greats taken EXACTLY the shots
Mike took from Buster, would they too be standing in RD 10?

I think maybe a couple of them would. And I don't want to hear how they couple would have found a way to win etc etc....All I am asking is would they
have taken the amount of shots Mike took and still stood after 10 rds??

How then can we say that Tyson's chin takes a ding because EVENTUALLY after 10 hard rds he finaly fell.....To me this doesn't add up..

I really believe Mike is one of very very few legitimate heavyweight champs
that could have taken the amount of punishment that Douglas dished
out and still lasted 10 rds....

That's the question. Forget the career of Mike and Buster and forget how Mike was or wasn't in shape or how Mike fought, his style, his character etc etc...

It's the simple ability to take a punch and in Mike's case he took 10 rds
of sustained punishment....

I say only 3-4 heavies could have taken those shots for 10 rds

That's why Mike is in my top 5 regarding the ability to take heavy shots....

[hawk5ins]

"Tyson's ability to absorb a power shot and
Douglas's suppossed power??"

Don't they go hand in hand as I was addressing THAT particular fight?

I said the quality of Tyson's chin taks a ding for getting KO'd in the manner he did by the likes of the opponent that did it to him.

I understand Tyson was at less than his best. But he shouldn't HAVE to be at his best to withstand Douglas, even if it was Douglas at HIS best.

Prior to facing Tyson, DOuglas fought marquee names, who happened to be alsorans. Page and Berbick. There is no evidence of the power in those bouts, that is being suggested DOuglas possessed. He faced Tucker, who let's be honest, HIS biggest win was a shot Jimmy Young or Eddie the Animal Lopez. Beyond that.....regardless, he stops DOuglas who in essence quits. Agian. No evidence of power that should be respected to the degree that is being suggested.

Douglas also fought 11 bout Fergusson and Lost. Power? 14 bout vet Mccall. Uinmpressive to put it mildly. No Signs of Power? Fine, It was McCall. Oft Ko'd David Jaco and Douglas could not stop HIM. And of course There is the Mike the Giant White fight.

I made a comparison to Page. Page at least ko'd Tillis. I also threw out Scott Ledoux. Buster Douglas does not even have A ko over a Scott LeDoux type fighter on his resume.

Can anyone pick ONE example of Douglas's, prior to facing Tyson agianst even a RECOGNIZALE name and cite a display of power? I'm only asking for Name recognition. No Donnie Long does not count. The ONLY marginal fighter, with a semblance of a name that He Ko'd was Mike Williams. And Williams chin was a proven liability. Ok, so Bus Ko'd someone he SHOULD have Ko'd....Knocked down twice with Jabs I might add. Give him a Point.

If this premise I am painting here is so delusional: Blow it up. Pick it apart. Put me in my place.

Now Tyson was NOT at his best for Douglas. At his best, I would Imagine he would win by mid rounds stoppage. Even agianst THAT Douglas. But I'm sorry, losing in the manner he did agianst THAT calibre of a fighter, who's power I maintain until proven otherwise was average at best, even when NOT at the top of your game, in your prime, is GOING to mandate demerits from where I sit.

Through the first 7 rounds of the bout, Tyson didn't do anything superhuman to attain mythology about his beard agianst a fighter whose power I think was average. And over the final three rounds when serious leather was ACTUALLY landed on Tyson, the effects were as plain as day. Hurt, shook up, Knocked out.

(I keep harping on the first 7 and then the final 3, for the very obvious reason that it KEEPS getting stated that the Blows that Tyson took during rounds 8, 9 and 10, the ones that DID hurt, wobble, drop and KO him, were the SAME Shots that he TOOK ALL BOUT Long. It's simply not the case. That is WHY I keep asking for examples of "serious leather" in the first 7 rounds. And of course I keep getting met with plague like avoidance.)

I'm not having anything both ways. I've been consistant with my stance which I am not sure how much clearer it could be. And My questions, unanswered, are the same ones from the first time I asked them.

If someone wants to make this confusing, by all means, continue on.

Hawk

[HE Grant]

Hawk, no one is attacking here. You are a well liked and respected guy. Maybe we are all too bored with the holidays or something .

[hawk5ins]

I'm not feeling attacked. (I don't Feel Tardy.)

But I think you probably are correct in that the Holidays are forcing us to do this!

Damn you Saint Nick!

HA!

Hawk

[HE Grant]

Cool. Happy New Year !!!

[Sharkey]

Tyson had, in my opinion, a terrific chin. Any man who gets beat on with an eye closed from afar with straight crunching shots can get KO'd. Water on a stone sort of thing.

Mike absorbed concussive blows from Ruddock (most he saw, but he was still wading right into them) as well. He got beat on by Lewis while mailing it in... and it took several head-bobbers to fell him... at a stage in his career where he was fairly well a dog.

I don't think Douglas blasting him into the dirt after a 10 round shellacking speaks of Mike having a chin to be dinged as in, it was not very very good. I think it might speak to the fact that here was a guy who rarely got hit, who became hittable, and the knockdowns followed. Whereas other guys who got hit a good bit who hit the deck every now and then are not spoken of in hushed tones as to their great chins. (Frazier.. for example).

I'll freely admit I have a difficult time following this thread, but my niece got Muzzy for Christmas (the DVD language set, not the disease) and after having watched some of that this thread came into focus.

Tyson had a well above average chin... and a better chin I believe than one that gets determined by Bus Douglas taking fungo practice to the head around it. Mike needn't be his best to beat any Douglas, but his 'chin' didn't let him down so much as his lack of defense in that bout (and semblance of plan or respect for his opponent) did.

[Sharkey]

I think many heavies, by the way, can take those shots from Douglas for 10 rounds because there have been more than 4 or 5 fighters who have fought 15 round gruellers and saw the final bell.

It's not like Douglas summoned Ruby Bob and channeled Satterfield for that one bout.. nor that he was a cruncher all along. It was, in my opinion, a case of a guy getting hit with straight shots all night. The first 7 rounds? Douglas plants rights and lefts on Mike's kisser. In combo. Mike stops rushing in so much as sporadically hopping close and if the coast was clear shooting some blows.

After 7, Mike is bone-tired, can't see so good, and the cumulative effect thing (plus a braver Buster really settling in) comes into play.

There are many guys who would be one of only 4 or 5 who could have lasted X amount of time in their respective bouts where they took big blows for x amount of time. Right? Add them up you might have 100 of them.

[hawk5ins]

I simply don't see the cumulative punches in the first 7 rounds being anything that would or could produce an arguement for a great chin.

THat's why I asked for specifics.

The punches that landed with "effect" in the last three rounds were NOT the shots that landed in the first 7.

Ah, like My wife always says: "At least you have YOU, Listening to You."

And by YOU, I mean of course, ME.

Happy New Year everyone.

Hawk

[wildhawke11]

Hawke
Happy New Year to You and All the rest of you great boxing fans.
Your Old Friend Danny

[Michael Frank]

"...Douglas also fought 11 bout Fergusson and Lost. Power? ...

...If this premise I am painting here is so delusional: Blow it up. Pick it apart. Put me in my place....

...Now Tyson was NOT at his best for Douglas. At his best, I would Imagine he would win by mid rounds stoppage. Even agianst THAT Douglas...."

One can't debate false analogies. "Douglas also fought 11 bout Fergusson and Lost. Power?" -- As I've asked before, how does LOSING equate to not having power? Shavers lost plenty. Simple answer: power-puncher doesn't land enough on opponent and loses; perhaps he's on the receiving end all night and can't get going; power never has a chance to surface.

"...Now Tyson was NOT at his best for Douglas. At his best, I would Imagine he would win by mid rounds stoppage. Even agianst THAT Douglas...." -- Let's say this comment is true. Even so, how does it support in the slightest the notion that Buster can't punch?? Presumably in this scenario, Tyson would nail Buster and Buster would be KO'd before evidencing his own power.

I have my own oft-asked question not being addressed: I say for the third time, how does losing to an opponent, big-name or little, speak to a fighter's power??? And, how does evidencing obvious power, as (to me) Douglas did vs. Tyson, get dismissed because it wasn't seen in other Douglas fights in which has was never so inspired?

Mike Weaver lost a lot. No power in Mike's arsenal, then??

Well, Weaver had plenty of power, one might say, pointing to his KO victories. But, I say again, even if a guy doesn't have many KO victories, it doesn't mean he doesn't have a KO punch. He's got to land it . . .

Douglas landed on Tyson, a man who had a track record BEFORE the fight (a major criteria for you as to Buster: his resume BEFORE their fight) of taking all manner of shots well. So, if fighter X then knocks Tyson out, fighter X would seem to have power.

If Tyson was the only guy Buster ever KO'd, he still demonstrated that he had solid heavyweight power -- in just that fight.

A baseball analogy: Al Weis of the Mets had something like 1 home run in 2 years. Then he blasts one (against the wind) in the 1969 World Series, shocking many. Does the miniscule number of HRs mean he has no power, no capacity for clocking one? I'd say, he DOES have power, but for various reasons didn't elect to exhibit it. (He tried to hit for average, and I emphasize TRIED.)

Pitchers have notoriously few hits, and fewer HRs. But when they clock one, it's a HR. These are big strong guys, like Buster, who really are unskilled hitters. But the latent athletic power is always there.

[hawk5ins]

He faced 11 bout Jesse Fergusson and Lost. The same Jesse Fergusson who 2 fights later was dropped twice by Carl Williams and KO'd.

Fergusson would be an opponent that I would think a Buster Douglas, were his power to be as reputable as is made out to be, that WOULD and SHOULD have fallen to Douglas's power. Both literally and figuratively.

THe fact remains, Douglas agianst EVEN a Jesse Fergusson Level fighter and one who has been dropped and stopped multiple times throughout his career, was NOT able to demonstrate the power with whihc is being referred to here.

It's NOT about the winning and the losing. It's about displaying (or not), the power I'm being told he possessed.

Didn't display it in Wins over spent versions of Berbick, Page. Immature verion of McCall (agian, great chin so I give us a pass here). And in Losses to Tucker, an 11 fight often stopped Jesse Fergusson. And a win over David Jaco who had been stopped in 7 of 9 fights during when he lost to DOuglas....By Decision.

The ONLY pre Tyson example there is, is agianst the very weak chinned Mike Williams.

Douglas has ZERO Greg Page dislplayes of power on his resume. Not even a Scott LeDoux type of win.

Nothing new here. Just a cut an paste of everything I've already posted on this subject.

Now let's move on and enjoy the Holiday.

Hawk

[JeffR]

"Which Holyfield would the Douglas who fought Tyson have lost to ? The one he fought next, maybe. The Holyfield that got knocked out by Bowe, maybe not. Again, it is not simply a matchup but where in the fighters careers."

Holyfield of 1990 beats the version of Douglas that beat Tyson. Not as easily as he beat the version that he actually fought, but he still beats him. I can't see any other analogy being germane here. (I don't doubt that the Douglas who beat Tyson doesn't beat the Holyfield that lost to Larry Donald. I don't doubt that the Douglas who beat Tyson also beats the Ali who fought Larry Holmes, but so what?) I've never bought into the Douglas was Superman-for-one-night myth that so many seem to have.

[Sharkey]

I listened Hawk. I get you. On board. I come out like this: Douglas was not a big puncher. Tyson getting plastered by Douglas doesn't mean he didn't have a great chin... not my definition of great, which is above very good... which would be ,.....

uh..

that Pinklon Thomas had a great chin... well until he lost his offense and became a punching bag..

Great? Well, tell me who did Poncho Carter KO?

Another brewski?! LOVE ONE!!!

[hawk5ins]

Already.

Hey, I'm not saying I'm correct. I'm only saying I BELIEVE I'm correct.

Poncho Carter. Wow.

For New Years we had some friends over and we played the DVD Game, Scene it, the 80's Music edition. It was pretty cool. Would have been Cooler if it had a boxing version.

Course then, I'd have to play it by myself.

I think I exposed myself during the game when I was able to name Kajagoogoo, The Indigo Girls and Frankie Goes to Hollywood in successive questions.

I shut up after that.

Hawk

[Sharkey]

I think we agree after reading your initial posts. We played Taboo after dropping a mortgage payment for dinner and drinkiepoos. I guess Taboo means different things to different people because I expected Kay Parker to walk through the door.

[hawk5ins]

We all ordered Chinese food.

One of the couples did the run (we supplied the house). I threw in $80.00 to chip in for the food, expecting at LEAST 20 or 30 back. Nothing!

Who the hell spends $80.00 On Chinese takeout?

ummm.....that would apparently be ME.

Hawk

[Sharkey]

You must have ordered #s one through 2100... plus 23 egg rolls.
-----

[hawk5ins]

I had the spirits flowing through me so I was a bit too generous I guess. (or an easy target.)

Probably going to be a bit awkward of a moment when I ask how much he tipped the guy when it was a PICK UP order!

Ah what are friends for?

Hawk