What's the real deal about Holyfield ?

[HE Grant]

I for one remain still confused about the mid-career crisis sufered by Evander Holyfield ... let's call it his Michael Moorer 1 through Boby Czyz stage ...

During this period of time we saw the supposedly supremely conditioned Holyfield look as if he was suffering a heart attack in his loss to Michael Moorer. He was KO'ed in a loss to Riddick Bowe in a fight where after dominating for five rounds and flattening Bowe in the sixth he ran out of gas like a four round fighter. There was something very strange about that loss. At some point he defeated Moorer in a rematch in which despite avenging a loss and knocking his man down five times he looked terrible, as if he was fighting under water. He soon after fought and looked absolutely horrible against a much smaller, semi-shot Bobby Czyz ... after that he fought a bout for the legends and defeated a semi-rejuvinated Tyson who while no where near the Berbick-Spinks Tyson did destroy Bruno, Seldon and a few other top guys ...

Holyfield went on to beat Tyson again in the weird ear bout and then twice go the distance in semi-competitive , boring bouts with Lennox Lewis ... My point is what the hell was going on with Evander in the Moorer1 - Czyz years ? Was it some sort of steroid overdose ? Was it Hepititis as I have also heard? Does anyone know ?

[10-8]

Your timeline is a bit off.

The Moorer rematch came after the Tyson fights and I thought Holyfield looked pretty good in that fight.

Moorer I to Czyz I believe has been attributed by Evander to hepititis. At least in the case of Bowe III.

I'm not sure we'll ever know.

[catsfoot]

Only 1 thing to add to this thread guys....i saw the Ibragimov fight in a delayed broadcast here in NZ and frankly...i dont want to see any more. You gave us some gr8 fights Evander....but as for 2008 - WHATS THE POINT !!

[apollack]

It's called steroids and human growth hormone.

[HE Grant]

That's what I mean. Is it possible it was a period where he was messing with drugs that had a negetive impact to a boxer's fighting style?

[Phillyfan]

I think there's such a thing as too much muscle. If you look at briggs, the muscle looks good, but he's gassed within 5 rounds. I think holyfield has the same problem. I believe he decided to take shortcuts(drugs), it packed on the muscle, enlarged his heart, and caused him to lose his hair. I've asked a number of champions and they say they never lifted weights, including larry holmes. I'm not a doctor, but I think muscle takes a lot of oxygen from your blood. the more muscle, the more oxygen you need to keep the muscles firing. your body is forced to make a decision during a fight, more blood/oxygen to your arms or to your legs.

my office hrs are noon to 2pm-Dr phillyfan

[robertk]

Evander also altered his style a bunch in that timeframe. He sure didn't throw those multi-combos of his > that second Bowe fight. He used to throw those combos non-stop and hit a guy 10-12 times before he'd stop. Like against Foreman/Dokes/etc. That was gone & turned into a 3 or 4 punch, at best and with only 1 left hook in the mix, and then tie up/headbutt/stop the attack.

He also bent back more at the waist and leaned to one side more than the early days. His punches were far more predictable. And he started taking far less risks in there and those Holyfield exchanges w/ opponents were long gone. He used to stand his ground and eventually outwork a guy and hurt the opponent in a fierce 10 to 20 second toe to toe exchange. That was reduced to about a 2 or 3 second exchange and he never had that kind of firepower & needed that additional exchange time.

I know Duva had stated he saw the damage from that Foreman fight & I really think Lou has it nailed. I also think it was a huge error in judgement dismissing the Duva/Benton corner combination just because he lost a decision to Bowe.

[hawk5ins]

I seem to recall that Duva and Benton wanted him to quit after the first Bowe fight.

I thought it had more to do with a change becuase he felt his team didn't beleive in him rather than a decision to change due to strategy.

Honestly though, I don't recall the specifics for the change.

Hawk

[HE Grant]

What Foreman fight damage? Drama aside it seemed to me to be one of Evander's easier fights.

[evander]

If the guy's doing the juice then why hasn't he been busted? I personally don't think the guy is juicing,his fight weight has always been about 205-215pds as a heavy... not 225. He moved up from a melted down 190pd limit to which he had already outgrown.Holyfield was well over 200pds when he used to train to make 190pds. I remember Mike Weaver fighting Holmes in the 1st fight at 205pds but easily put on 20-25pds later in his career and was still ripped . Ken Norton was the same way. He fought Ali the 1st time at 205pds and added about 20-25pds and still looked like an Adonis later in his career. I guess those guys must have been were roiding as well.

And The reason Holyfield stopped throwing so many combos later on his career...was because he just couldn't do it anymore. The guy was in his early 30's by the 2nd Bowe fight and something had to change, so he started placing his shots with better timing and accuracy rather than throwing caution to the wind as he used to do in his 20's.The Spit fire Holyfield that threw tons of punches was gone after the 1st bowe fight , and a slower more calculated Holyfield emerged .The guy learned that he had to pace himself as an older man if he was going to go the distance .

I know i'm in the minority here but that's what I believe.

[raylawpc]

Has his hat size changed? According to a phyisican-client of mine, an increase in hat size is one sure way to know if an athlete has been juicing. (I don't know if its true, but it sounds reasonable. You don't exercise your head muscles.)

[PeteLeo]

What does it mean if your hat size starts to get dramatically smaller? Should I -- uh, should the person involved be worried? PeteLeo.

[Ron Lipton]

If Ever and I do mean ever it is time to S.T.O.P. getting in that ring before his brains are scrambled forever it is now.

God almighty enough is enough already. The guy has nothing left and certainly no one sane around him can believe the train is going anywhere anymore.

[TKO11]

Why is it that people keep saying Evander "outgrew" the Cruiserweight division? He was well past his 25th birthday when he moved up, and had NEVER had any trouble hitting 190. In fact, I don't think he ever even weighted in at 190 - he was always under the weight, and naturally. He never had to bleed weight to hit the Cruiser limit.

While I agree that Evander never really jumped in weight when he moved up to heavy (which he did for marquee value/money, no more), I'd have a hard time believing it was 100% natural. Yet since he's never tested positive, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt - it's not like his weight went from 190 to 250 in a couple of years (James - can you hear me James?).

[hagler04]

I think it was a combination of him dabbling in steroids, getting too muscled up, and just being past his prime. The Tyson win was such a huge deal as Mike still had that "indestructable aura" that people didn't realize that win didn't suddenly mean Holyfield was back in his prime. His skills/reflexes/stamina took a fairly swift dip following the first Bowe fight. Everyone has some good nights past their best (Tyson 1, Rahman) but most of Evander's performances, including his wins, post 92 demonstrated a deteriorated fighter (Csyz, Mercer, Bowe II, Moorer II, Bean, Lewis, Ruiz)

[hawk5ins]

is where was this to have begun?

He's always been heavily muscled. And simply becuase he was built like a Brick Shit House, does not MANDATE he did Roids. See Weaver, Norton, Cleveland Williams and many others.

Did he use when he bulked up to Heavy? The weight increase certainly was not dramatic. It was slow and steady.

Did he do it when he turned pro? That is the accusation laid on him By Dwight Qawi.

Did he start after the first Bowe bout when his performances began to be much more erratic.

I simply do not know. ANd I don't think anyone else does either.

If his wieght gain also showed a difference in his muscularity, than I think it would be easier to point that out. Or if his rise in weight also demonstrated the erratic performances. But nothing really ties together.

He was always cut. He gained weight slowly and then after roughly 5 years at Heavy, after a 4 year run at Cruiser, his performances became more erratic. After 9 years as a pro.

Simply running down? I agree that he was not at his prime for the Tyson fights. And they simply were great performances later in his career. And yes, there were more average to bad showings post Bowe I, rather than excellent showings. I'm glad the Moorer II fight was included in the so so showings. Despite dropping Moorer 5 times AND stopping him, Evander looked average at best.

I won't say it is NOT possible (roid usage). I just would like something more definitive than "I think". I'd like something we could point to, to illustrate some clear "changes".

I like to ties things together, before I point fingers with accusations.

Hawk

[walshb]

Just look at Evander in LA 1984 and you will see he was a naturally ripped
mother fuc***.....

He is IMO one of the sports all time greatest physical specimens and
I think in LA he was maybe 22-23 max and still had a few years maturing...

When you look at him V Douglas, he was ripped, but not over muscled.
His fights with Tyson and Lewis showed to me a more bulked up version
and it is around this time the suspicion was greatest.....

Even though he wasn't much heavier V Tyson than V Douglas, his appearance seemed more unnatural and fake.....

Also in 1990 he was 27/28 and then 6 yeras later at 34/35 he was
looking as powerful as ever, but not near as naturally powerful as
in 1990.....

So the key is his age and how he still maintained such a fantastic physique
in his mid 30's and to some his physique was even more muscled and bulked
at this age range???

Sussy if you ask me...

[HE Grant]

I don't think it was so slow a jump ... he fought at cruiser at about 188 or so than fought at heavyweight six months later at 208 ... between 18 - 20 pounds of solid muscle ... not like a Michael Spinks move up ... I'm fairly certian he did growth hormones if not actual steroids ..,

[hawk5ins]

to post pics on this site, but I am looking at Photos of Evander from the Douglas bout and comparing them to the ones from the first Tyson fight and the only difference I see is Evander being bald in for the fight in 1996.

He was 7 pounds heavier for the Tyson fight than he was for Douglas.

Can someone post a pic of Evander from the two time periods so they can be evaluated side by side?

Where are the marked differences visually? Other than hair?

His tale of the tape for the preview for when the Douglas fight from 1990 was:

Age 28
Weight 210* Approximate
Height 6'2 1/2"
Reach 77 1/2 inches
Chest Normal-43"
Chest Expanded-45"
Bicep 16"
Forearms-12 1/2"
Waist 35"
Thigh-22"
Calf-13"
Neck 19 1/2"
Wrist 7 1/2"
Fist 12 1/2"
Ankle 10 "

(source Dec 1990 issue of Boxing Illustrated.)

For the Tyson fight when it was scheduled in 1991:

Age 29
Weight 208* Approximate
Height 6'2 1/2"
Reach 77 1/2 inches
Chest Normal-46"
Chest Expanded-48"
Bicep 17"
Forearms-13 1/2"
Waist 32"
Thigh-23"
Calf-13 1/2"
Neck 19 1/2"
Wrist 7 1/2"
Fist 12 1/2"
Ankle 10 "

(Source December 1991 issue of Boxing Illustrated)

For the Tyson fight Rematch in 1997:

Age 34
Weight 215
Height 6'2 1/2"
Reach 77 1/2 inches
Chest Normal-43"
Chest Expanded-45"
Bicep 16"
Forearms-12 1/2"
Waist 32"
Thigh-22"
Calf-13"
Neck 19 1/2"
Wrist 7 1/2"
Fist 12 1/2"
Ankle 10 "

(source June 1997 issue of the RIng)

Evander's Measurements actually went DOWN in areas from 1991 to 1997, But the 1990 and 1997 measurements were pretty similar other than weight. It sounds to me like the measurements from the 1991 issue of BI are off a bit.

Hopefully some Images side by side will help out a little more.

Thanks

Hawk

[hawk5ins]

He weighed 190 for DeLeon.

His next fight for Tillis, he was 202.

12 pounds.

He indeed looked bigger, But not as Ripped as he was for DeLeon. The definition was there, but it was bulkier. Not as Shredded as he was for his last two bouts agianst DeLeon and Qawi.

Spinks by comparison, who never had a ripped upper body, gained 24 pounds in almost the same time frame, which was 3 months for both.

Hawk

[Todd]

Hawk: PM me links to different pics and I'll post them.

[walshb]

Exactly what I have been saying...

Ripped and bulked....

Two definite different entities...

Holy was ripped as a cruiser and ripped in his
early heavy days...

In his mid 30's from say 1996-2000 he was IMO
more unnaturally BULKED....

V Buster he looked a solid ripped 205lb or so fighter and he
looked obviously sharper and leaner..

V Tyson it was 215lbs of pure weight and bulk and width.....

It's what I saw anyway....

And I believe his age played a part in this...

Once he went to his mid to late 30's, it possibly proved
a very arduous task to stay ripped and fit and lean and Evander
may have looked elsewhere to help himself

And the one thing I always commented on was his
shoulder definition V Tyson and Lewis...He was bigger in this department

[hawk5ins]

I am looking at are hardcopies from mags.

Like Page 30 from the March 1991 issue of KO magazine. Or Page 29 of the Feb 91 issue of Boxing Illustrated. Both from the Buster Douglas fight. There is another from the Dec 1991 issue of KO mag (page 28) where he is wearing a t-shirt and a Hat coming off of a workout where he looks like a monster.

But two Covers that stand out to me that I CAN see an image of Evander from this time period of 90-92, that I am referring to would be:



And



I see no difference in the body shape personally.

(Sidenote: My Comment, two posts up, about Holyfiled being "Bulkier", was re the difference between Evander for DeLeon and James Tillis and the difference of 12 pounds. It had nothing to do with Evander in his mid to late 30's.)

Hawk

[Overhand_Right]

Wouldn't Holyfield have been caught out by now if he was on Juice?

Okay so 94- he takes on a southpaw puncher & just doesnt cope with the style. He loses a MD. Afterwards in the hospital they pump him full of fluids which causes a FALSE heart problem, later voided.

95- he punches out Ray Mercer in a spectacular display, but allegedly has hepititis v Bowe and looks very tired when walking into a kayo shot from a hge strong guy. Looks past it at the time, but...

96- i'll never get the issue with the Czyz fight. Holyfield was handing Czyzs ass to him but admitted a couple of years later he just wasn't up for such a pointless challeneg.

Then he beats up Tyson twice and beats up Moorer in a tremendously exciting fight. The first Lewisfight was dull but the 2nd was entertaining and it was Holyfield making the fight.

I think the media just misjudged too many times when Holyfield was 'past it'.

[TKO11]

This from an email Hawk sent me (this is still the only one I've received Hawk). Evander making Buster Douglas realize he really wasn't ever that good after all.....

[walshb]

The guy looks like a machine and looks the way a true heavyweight champ
should look..

He gives Norton a run for his money and also the Ali who beat Liston in
fight 2.....

[TKO11]

More scanned mags from Hawk (note to Hawk - you don't have to scan in the entire page, and you don't really need 300dpi. For the internet, 96 dpi will do and it won't make your computer poop out).

[hawk5ins]

How I was able to do what I did!

And c'mon Cliff. Like I understand what the hell dpi means.

Jesus, I'm lucky to figure out: "poop out".

I'm so technologically crippled, it's scary.

Thank you muchly though!

Hawk

[hawk5ins]

You know what I just found Weird looking?

Look at Evander's trunks in post 25 and then look at them in the other B&W photos from post 27.

Evander looks like he has different trunks on. The photos are from the Douglas Bout. But for some reason his trunks in #25 look like they are one Dark uniform color instead of the Red With Black trim, that they actually are.

Weird.

Hawk

[HE Grant]

First off, ring measurements always vary , so much at times they are a joke ... weights, reaches, bicepts, necks, you name it they flucuate ... you cannot go by them ..

I always thought Evander was heavier for his first few heavyweight bouts ... either way, even 12 pounds over six months is unnatural ... you cannot gain more than a few pounds of muscle per year and none of what he carried was water weight ...

Can someone verify his weight for his first heavyweight bout ?