Old-Time Fights under Today's Refereeing

[hagler04]

I was watching the great scrap between Zora Folley and Doug Jones last night, and it got me thinking. Folley had Jones down and very hurt at the end of the 1st, and in the 2nd for about the first 30 seconds of the round Folley was pummeling Jones around the ring, and Doug seemed temporarily out on his feet. Nevertheless, he remarkably stayed upright, and fought his way back into the fight in the latter half of the round, as Zora finally got a little arm weary.

I couldn't help think that with many modern refs, the fight would've been stopped at the beginning of the 2nd and Folley awarded a TKO victory, as refs are much quicker to stop fights than 40-50 years ago. What are some other fights who's results you could changed if fought with modern refs? I'm not talking about severely premature stoppages but fights where the eventual winner took a real pounding. Would the record books list Durelle TKO 1 over Moore? Or Williams TKO10 over Shavers?

[hawk5ins]

Zale Graziano I, could have ended with a Zale KO1 Graziano or even a Graziano KO 2 Zale.

Patterson Johannson III, could very well have been Ingo KO1 Floyd.

Bonavena KO 1 Frazier anyone?

Hawk

[raylawpc]

Hawk, didn't you mean Bonavena TKO 2 over Frazier? (Frazier was down twice in the 2nd, not the 1st).

I think it depends on the referee. A guy with the mindset of Davey Pearl in the Hearns-Leonard I - yeah, probably.

I would like to see our own Ron Lipton chime in on this one.

[hawk5ins]

KO 1 would really be pulling the trigger fast.

Bonavena Tko 2 Frazier was what I meant.

Hawk

[Enswell]

I don't think many today would have stopped the the third Floyd-Ingo fight in the first. There's probably a few, maybe Nady, but most would have let it go. The first fight is another matter. That should have, and would be today, stopped after the first knockdown. Floyd was lucky to get out of that one alive.

[hawk5ins]

After the first KD of Floyd, but Very Possibly the second one as Floyd was definitely hurt.

Hurt after being dropped twice in a round. I think it is a strong possibility.

Let's put it this way. Diego Corralles doesn't spit his Mouthpiece twice in the 10th round agianst Castillo and has to get up TWICE at the 8 count......The bout is stopped before he ever has a chance to hurt Castillo. No extra time with the warnings and point deductions and the mouth piece being washed off and replaced, he never makes it out of the round.

Was Floyd THAT hurt? I would say no, but hurt after being dropped twice, It would not be out of the question.

Hawk

[PeteLeo]

Rosario-Ramirez II? PeteLeo.

[KOJOE90]

Yvon Durelle TKO1 Archie Moore 1958 for the World Light Heavyweight Title, maybe?

[hawk5ins]

On the same card, how about Garza Ko 1 Meza?

Hawk

[greek1237]

Theres more than just that. Today's refs hardly allow any in fighting. They always part the fighters too soon, so guys like Armstrong, Fullmer, Siki, Bat Nelson are SLO when the ref parts the fighters before they even get tied up. Which of couse favors the boxer. Hatton Mayweather comes to mind, early rounds.

[hawk5ins]

Sammy Angott would be screwed today.

Granted guys like Angott and Fullmer DID throw punches when they were mauling on the inside (Ricky, please take note that this is how it's done.), But refs rarely allow much infighting.

ESPECIALLY, if one guy is doing the holding and the other guy is legally throwing and landing punches. Refs HAVE to let that go and it's up to the fighter that is holding to bail HIMSELF out of getting hit.

I despise that.

Hawk

[greek1237]

Can you think of the Ali Fraizer 1 fight becoming a other fight if the ref just part them even time they come in contact??? Fraizer was doing a LOT of body work and in fighting. With todays refs, he would not have that chance in most cases.

[Enswell]

After the first KD of Floyd, but Very Possibly the second one as Floyd was definitely hurt.

Hurt after being dropped twice in a round. I think it is a strong possibility.

Let's put it this way. Diego Corralles doesn't spit his Mouthpiece twice in the 10th round agianst Castillo and has to get up TWICE at the 8 count......The bout is stopped before he ever has a chance to hurt Castillo. No extra time with the warnings and point deductions and the mouth piece being washed off and replaced, he never makes it out of the round.

Was Floyd THAT hurt? I would say no, but hurt after being dropped twice, It would not be out of the question.

Hawk

I don't think Floyd was in anywhere near the kind of shape Corrales was in.IMO, it's not very likely that match would be stopped today.

[hagler04]

Sammy Angott would be screwed today.

Granted guys like Angott and Fullmer DID throw punches when they were mauling on the inside (Ricky, please take note that this is how it's done.), But refs rarely allow much infighting.

ESPECIALLY, if one guy is doing the holding and the other guy is legally throwing and landing punches. Refs HAVE to let that go and it's up to the fighter that is holding to bail HIMSELF out of getting hit.

I despise that.

Hawk

I do as well. Too many guys just let themselves get tied up. If your opponent ties up one arm, use the other for crying out loud. There's a price for everything. It just takes some damn work. Woe was the man who tried to constantly hold a peak Fullmer, Armstrong, or Liston. Those guys would go ape-shit on the body (or the side/back of the head) if they were clinched.

[hawk5ins]

I think Floyd was Hurt pretty good after the second Knockdown.

I've seen worse today with single knockdowns.

IMO, I can easily see a ref today intervening and stopping the bout.

Would I agree with it? No.

Hawk

[starlingstomp]

Benitez most likely would have had a stoppage loss against Bruce Curry on his record.

[Punchdrunk]

How about Rocky's fight with Ezzard Charles when his nose was split?

[Ron Lipton]

These are all great points and very interesting to me. The referees of yore generally speaking with some definite exceptions were just horrible. Maybe the worst I ever saw at least one of them was in Virgil Akins V Tony Demarco.
You know I saw the Jones v Folley bout from my collection not too long ago and I must see it again after reading the post.

As to history being reversed by today's standards, that is a very interesting point of view. Surely there are refs who would have stopped Moore v Durelle I after those hard knockdowns and certainly the beating Floyd took in Johannson I would have ended it sooner.

I was sitting ringside 2nd row for Frazier v Bonavena I. Joe got up both times and rolled into this guy. The longshoreman Bill who was sitting next to me was ripping my arm out of its socket with excititement screaming so loud he was sloshing me with his beer, "Look at this fu..i.ng kid, Ron, look at the balls on this guy," meaning Frazier getting up and going after Oscar.

Rocky's fight with Charles I could very well have been stopped.

I like to let them fight on the inside as that is part of boxing, and I like decisive KO's within limits of health and injury. Some battles have just got to be stopped and the old refs would let that stuff go bigtime.

I think they let Schmelling get a little extra swastika crunch in the rematch
and Max turned out to be a good guy who divested himself from Adolph, but he was brutalized beyond belief.

The amount of Tony Perez rabbit punches allowed in the old days certainly rivaled Ali v Wepner, and it was commonplace and caused in my opinion much damage to many guys. Thank God they do not allow that anymore.

Great thread.

[jim glen]

STOP the fight(?), what about the Ref that 'through' Graziano off ther ropes back into the fight! was it Zale or SRR.

man that fight could have went the other way, Graziano would have had a lot less suffering to endure .

[greek1237]

Not sure, it was a foul punch that split the Rock's nose(Or in this case a elbow), so it would go to the score cards

[Rafael]

Would Paret still be alive had a modern day referee officiated his third fight against Griffith?

[Michael Frank]

Chacon-Boza Edwards II would have had a different winner.

[Michael Frank]

Joey Curtis was just terrible in his early stoppages AND late stoppages. An example of the former: Dokes-Weaver #1. For the latter: Leonard-Ranzany--Pete might have gotten killed, but Joey wouldn't stop it earlier as he should have.

Same with Duran-Moore-- the CBS announcing team was unanimous in calling for the fight to be stopped earlier, but Ernesto Magana wouldn't do it.

[wildhawke11]

Would Paret still be alive had a modern day referee officiated his third fight against Griffith?

That was the fight when i saw this thread that immediately came to mind.

[Southpaw1982]

I believe Matthew Saad would have been a loser in both of his bouts against Yaqui Lopez had the fights taken place in the modern era. In the 8th round of both fights Matt got hurt badly by Yaqui and was being pummeled at will for well over a dozen seconds each time with no return fire from Matt.

He may well have lost the Kates fight as well after that hard knockdown he suffered in the 4th round where he fell flat on his face and got up on spaghetti legs.... I think most refs today would have stopped it right then and there. I can think of many other examples but these are the fights that popped immediately to mind.

[PeteLeo]

Is it blasphemy worthy of incineration by Olympian bolts to suggest that we might just this week have inducted "former Heavyweight Champion Renaldo 'Mr.' Snipes" into the Hall of Fame?

Yeah, I figured it was. PeteLeo.

[greek1237]

Maybe Marciano Walcott 1, round 11, when Walcott hurting Marciano. And had Marciano on rubbery legs. Sure Marciano was doing well at the end of the round, but most of todays refs may have stop that.

[KOJOE90]

Henry Armstrong may have stopped Barney Ross.

[hagler04]

Maybe Marciano Walcott 1, round 11, when Walcott hurting Marciano. And had Marciano on rubbery legs. Sure Marciano was doing well at the end of the round, but most of todays refs may have stop that.

Actually, everytime I watch that 11th round Marciano never seems to be nearly as hurt as the announcer makes out. Maybe it's that the camera angle doesn't give a clean view of the punch that hurt him. Does anyone else agree?

Good calls on the Saad-Lopez fights. Another which may have been stopped was Foreman-Young in the 7th round. Jimmy was really flailing around the ring.

On the othe side of the spectrum, some awful LATE stoppages:

Williams-Jack
Graziano-Zale-One of the worst, the ref literally wipes the gloves of a completely out of it Rocky to send him back for more punishment
Baer-Schmeling
I would say Foreman-Frazier, despite being a title fight, was kept on for too long.

[Ron Lipton]

Actually, everytime I watch that 11th round Marciano never seems to be nearly as hurt as the announcer makes out. Maybe it's that the camera angle doesn't give a clean view of the punch that hurt him. Does anyone else agree?

Good calls on the Saad-Lopez fights. Another which may have been stopped was Foreman-Young in the 7th round. Jimmy was really flailing around the ring.

On the othe side of the spectrum, some awful LATE stoppages:

Williams-Jack
Graziano-Zale-One of the worst, the ref literally wipes the gloves of a completely out of it Rocky to send him back for more punishment
Baer-Schmeling
I would say Foreman-Frazier, despite being a title fight, was kept on for too long.

Those fights are truly some of the very worst in my opinion too.
Baer v Schmeling, and Williams v Jack, Zale v Rock III, are insane really, Mercante Sr did a terrible job in Foreman v Frazier letting it go much too long.