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Thread: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

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    ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    The 10 best chins in boxing history
    By Graham Houston
    Special to ESPN.com

    Throughout boxing history there have been some incredibly tough individuals. The "Durable Dane" nickname of old-time lightweight champ Battling Nelson was well-earned, for instance. In a look at the all-time best chins, then, the problem is not which boxers to include but which to leave out. Here, focusing on fighters of the past, is a list of the toughest of the tough.

    10. Tommy Farr

    Tough Tommy from Tonpandy, Wales, will forever be remembered for not only lasting the full 15 rounds with Joe Louis but actually giving the Brown Bomber a very good, competitive fight. Farr was stopped five times but three of those losses were earlier in his 126-fight career and two when he was well past his best. The Louis fight was one of the ring's great exhibitions; it showed how to endure under fire and give some back against an all-time great puncher. As James P. Dawson reported in The New York Times: "Farr, though he was beaten last night, battered and bruised and pounded with staggering force at times, won glory in that he attained the unique distinction of surviving 15 rounds against the master puncher of the day."

    9. Gene Fullmer

    The "Mauling Mormon" was stopped only twice, the first time famously when Sugar Ray Robinson hit him with one of the greatest left hooks ever thrown in their middleweight championship rematch. In three other 15-round fights with Robinson, Fullmer took the best punches that the greatest fighter in history could deliver. He was stopped for the second time in his career when, cut and battered, his corner retired him after the seventh round against old rival Dick Tiger in Nigeria, but by that time Fullmer, 32, was at the end of his career.

    In the third of his four-fight series with Robinson -- a 15-round draw -- The Associated Press reported that Sugar Ray "rattled numerous rights off the granite-like jaw and chin of Fullmer" and that it "seemed impossible for the 29-year-old champion from West Jordan, Utah, to survive the attack." Fullmer did survive, though, and defiantly told the press afterwards: "He never hurt me."

    8. Carmen Basilio

    The onion farmer from Syracuse, N.Y., was a tireless aggressor and wicked left-hooker noted for his ruggedness and big heart. His two stoppage defeats came at the end of his career against the bigger, stronger Fullmer, and the rematch was halted mainly because Basilio was badly cut, with the brave warrior furious at the referee for stopping the fight. Basilio withstood some tremendous blows from Tony DeMarco in their two welterweight championship wars. When he narrowly defeated Robinson in the first of their two epic fights The Associated Press reported that Basilio "shook off punches that would have knocked down a horse."

    7. Jake LaMotta

    Not many fighters, surely, could have withstood the punishment that Jake LaMotta absorbed from Sugar Ray Robinson in their 1951 title fight without going down. Although the Bronx Bull took a terrible beating he was on his feet, bloodied but defiant, at the finish. (In the movie "Raging Bull," Robert DeNiro, as LaMotta, says with hoarse-voiced satisfaction at the end of the fight: "Ray, you couldn't knock me down." It was the sort of comment the real-life LaMotta might have made.) In more than 100 bouts against the best of his era, nobody barred, LaMotta was stopped just four times -- by Robinson, the notorious fixed fight against Billy Fox, and twice as a light heavyweight when he was largely a spent force -- but he was never counted out.

    6. Kid Gavilan

    The Cuban Hawk was never stopped in 143 fights -- although he suffered a couple of knockdowns, one coming in his welterweight title fight with Basilio when he was nailed by a left hook that might have knocked out most 147-pounders. Gavilan is the fourth boxer on the list to have fought Robinson. When Gavilan gave Sugar Ray an excellent fight for the welterweight title, James P. Dawson reported in The New York Times that "the Cuban has more endurance, determination and fearlessness than any other in Robinson's limited field of challengers."

    5. Carlos Monzon

    Argentina's Carlos Monzon lost three fights out of 100, all on points, and although knocked down by the fine Colombian middleweight Rodrigo Valdes, he got up to win and retired afterwards as unbeaten and the undisputed 160-pound champion. I was lucky enough to have been able to cover several of Monzon's European fights from ringside, including his 1975 title defense against Gratien Tonna in Paris when the rather crude but muscular French boxer landed a tremendous left hook early in the fight -- and Monzon never went anywhere. After this, the will to fight seemed to drain from Tonna, who essentially surrendered in the fifth.

    4. George Chuvalo

    No list of best chins could be complete, in my view, without mention of Canadian heavyweight ironman George Chuvalo, who twice went the distance with Muhammad Ali and was never dropped in 93 fights. (When Chuvalo was stopped by Joe Frazier he suffered a fractured cheekbone, and he remained on his feet while being overwhelmed by George Foreman.) Chuvalo outlasted the very hard-hitting Jerry Quarry in a seven-round war.

    In an interview for Boxing Monthly in 1998, Chuvalo told me that although known mostly for being able to absorb punches, he felt he could box a bit, too. "If I got hit with one-tenth of the punches that I was reputed to have been hit with, I wouldn't be able to talk to you," he said. "I'd always say: 'On the right night, I'd beat anybody.' Maybe if they had 100-round fights I would have."

    3. Rocky Marciano

    Rocky Marciano's ability to take punishment and keep coming is the stuff of legend. He was dropped twice in his 49 fights (all of which were victories), coming back to knock out wonderful sharpshooters Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore. Although the great Ezzard Charles bloodied Marciano in each of their two fights he could not stop the Rock's relentless advances. Marciano simply seemed unstoppable in these fights. As observed by writer Ed Fitzgerald in the January 1953 edition of Sport magazine: "You can, as with an enraged grizzly bear, slow him down and make him shake his head if you hit him hard enough to wound him, but you can't make him back up."

    2. Harry Greb

    The old "Human Windmill" was as tough as they come. In 240 bouts he was stopped only twice, once when he was outweighed, then when he suffered a broken arm. Those losses came in the first two years of his 13-year career. A great middleweight champion, he fought the best of his era including top-caliber light heavyweights, notably Gene Tunney (later to become heavyweight champion) and Tommy Loughran.

    Astonishingly, Greb fought the last several years of his career while blind in the right eye, the general consensus being that he had been thumbed in the eye in a 1921 contest.

    1. Marvelous Marvin Hagler

    In a list of really, really tough guys, Hagler has to be right up there. He was only dropped once, and that was an off-balance flooring against Argentina's rough and rugged Juan Domingo Roldan, whom he otherwise outclassed. Hagler stood up to the best punches of John Mugabi, one of the biggest hitters of the 1980s.

    What puts Hagler at the top of the list, in my view, is the way he took some tremendous punches from Thomas Hearns in their epic three-round war. I doubt very many middleweights could have weathered the Hearns firestorm that night, but Hagler did, and he came back with an even more withering barrage of his own. What a chin -- what a fighter.

    Graham Houston is the American editor of Boxing Monthly and writes for FightWriter.com.

    Hawk

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    No Ali??

    Its a decent list, I think Ali, Walker, and Barney Ross should have been there SOME were. Ross was never knockout in 83 or so fights. And took a beating from Armstrong.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    My first thought exactly, greek1237. "No Ali??"

    Certainly, the Greatest weathered big shots from harder punchers than Marciano's opponents. Went down 4 times in his career but always got up fast; of the 4, the closest to being KOd was by Cooper early in his career.

    I believe that the article writer noted the Roldan knockdown of Hagler incorrectly. It didn't APPEAR a legit KD, and I believe Hagler later fought successfully to have it changed... but, is reversing a KD call after the fight even possible?

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Surprised Tex Cobb is not on the list.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Whats often forgotting in regards to Chins, is Walker was mostly a middleweight taking on the big heavyweight punchers, and went the distant. Most times.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Senor Houston needs to learn his boxing history. No Bat Nelson? No Joe Grim? Wolgast? Ali? So many more I could name. And no way could you justify putting Carlos Monzon over Jake LaMotta, who fought the harder-hitting opposition. Monzon has NO BUSINESS being in any sane top 10. Great fighter, excellent chin, but top 10?? And based on what, fighting Valdez and Tonna?

    Mr. Graham, turn in your credentials, please.
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 06-06-2008 at 08:45 PM.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    Senor Houston needs to learn his boxing history. No Bat Nelson? No Joe Grim? Wolgast? Ali? So many more I could name. And no way could you justify putting Carlos Monzon over Jake LaMotta, who fought the harder-hitting opposition. Monzon has NO BUSINESS being in any sane top 10. Great fighter, excellent chin, but top 10?? And based on what, fighting Valdez and Tonna?

    Mr. Graham, turn in your credentials, please.
    Graham Houston is a pretty well respected boxing writer, Surf, and you're way over the top in your criticism of a perfectly respectable list. Monzon has as much business as anyone on such a list given the length of his career, his time at the top and the fact that, Valdez apart, he was never really hurt let alone knocked down. Much more right than a fairytale like Joe Grimm.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Where's Ali, Mercer, McCall, Toney....I know you can't include everyone, but I thought Ali may have made it. He fought some massive hitters and took some massive shots. P4P, Hagler is a great choice and you would nearly bet on Marvin as a middle, taking a heavies shot; his chin was that sturdy.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulie W
    Graham Houston is a pretty well respected boxing writer, Surf, and you're way over the top in your criticism of a perfectly respectable list. Monzon has as much business as anyone on such a list given the length of his career, his time at the top and the fact that, Valdez apart, he was never really hurt let alone knocked down. Much more right than a fairytale like Joe Grimm.
    I'm not sure that Jack Johnson, Bob Fitzsimmons, Joe Gans, Joe Walcott, Dixie Kid, Peter Maher, Jack Blackburn or any number of world champions or top challengers would agree with your assessment about Grim's chin being a "fairytale".

    I'm not interested in Monzon's length of career, time at the top, etc. I'm interested in WHO tested his chin and then comparing that to others. Evidence and proof are called for here.

    Carlos Monzon doesn't have the Class-A punchers on his resume to warrant inclusion on ANY respectable top 10 list, and certainly not above someone like Ali, who took it from Shavers, Liston, Foreman, Williams, Norton, Lyle, Bonavena, Frazier, ad infinitum. Or Jake LaMotta, who absorbed the bombs of punchers like Ray Robinson, Bob Satterfield and Lloyd Marshall. Or Bat Nelson, who took an unbelievable amount of huge shots from Joe Gans and Aurelio Herrera(the Earnie Shavers of his day) not to mention countless others. I wouldn't put Monzon anywhere near Marvin Hagler, who absorbed bombs from Hearns, Mugabi, Hart, Roldan and Briscoe- ALL big punchers.

    If you want to argue that Monzon is in the top 25 I wouldn't disagree. Absorbing shots from Valdez and Briscoe puts him in high standing. But definitely not top 10. Too many fighters who fought bigger punchers. Or are Battling Nelson and Ali just "fairytales" too?

    There's so many things wrong with this list it's hard to know where to start.

    (BTW, I would put Joey Maxim ahead of Monzon as well)
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 06-07-2008 at 12:05 PM.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    And maybe Houston is a well respected boxing writer, but he shows an alarming lack of historical insight here. Reminds me of Brian Doogan(also a respected writer), who amazingly proclaimed that Joe Calzaghe was somehow unassailably one of the top 2-3 greatest British fighters of all time. Incredible...

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Surf, I'm totally with you as to Monzon's place on this list and the omissions. Wasn't nailed much, Valdez (being one of the few who nailed him and one of two to drop him) wasn't the incredible KO artist some seem to make him out to be, and if Monzon makes the list when Ali doesn't, and ahead of LaMotta . . . then I just think the writer was out to lunch.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Perhaps the real problem is that a top ten is simply not enough to chronicle all the great chins?.Pretty much all of the fighters he mentioned did have great chins after all.

    For instance,I wouldn't go so far as to say Monzon is nowhere near Hagler, if you are strictly sticking to big punchers fought as a way of quantifying chin- something i would argue is overly simplistic...it's not as if everyone else they fought COULD'NT punch; many were in fact superior technicians to the more notable bangers.A superior delivery system and ability to deliver surprise punches can often make a fighter a more dangerous puncher than an unskilled knockout artist.

    Hagler fought Hart, Obelmeijas(twice), Roldan, Hearns, Mugabi, Sibbo and Briscoe.

    Monzon fought Valdez twice, Mundine, a much better Briscoe twice and Tonna.

    All those guys were big punchers and known as knockout artists in their time.

    Valdez, Mundine, Hearns and Sibbo being the ones that didn't telegraph almost everything they threw.So as far as facing big punchers that could really surprise with accuracy and finesse, they are relatively equal.

    I'd give Hagler the clear edge, but in the sense of being a notch or two above.Not in a completely different league or such.

    The real difference between the two is that Hagler was never really even staggered, whereas Monzon was put down and staggered once by Bennie.

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    I might Criticize

    Graham, for NOT having Barney Ross among his top 10.

    But I would NOT criticize him for including Carlos Monzon.

    Who's chin was better Hagler's or Monzon's?

    I'd give an edge to Hagler.

    Juan Roldan, did NOT score a knockdown of Marvin Hagler. Let's be CLEAR about that. But he DID have Marvin Shitting his pants for a good 2 and a half rounds before a well placed thumb turned things around very quickly.

    I don't ever recall Monzon ever being that "initmidated" by a fighters power, like that.

    Monzon was HARD. Best word to describe him.

    Head to head, I take Marvin in a very close bout. ANd Chin, I give Marvin the slight edge.

    But Monzon Belongs in the discussion. IMO, Clearly.

    And I wouldn't argue vehemently with anyone who said the edge goes slightly in Carlos' favor. CLEARLY in MOnzon's favor, I think they are out to lunch.

    I have too much respect for BOTH Monzon and Hagler to ever say that ONE was CLEARLY This or That, over the other.

    Hawk

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Frank
    Surf, I'm totally with you as to Monzon's place on this list and the omissions. Wasn't nailed much, Valdez (being one of the few who nailed him and one of two to drop him)
    "One of "two"? Who else dropped Carlos?

    Think this one over, kids: Monzon fought Briscoe twice. Hagler ran from an older and depleted Briscoe. That might say something about the guys and their chins.

    Or maybe not. PeteLeo.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    I knew you'd ask. I don't know the other guy, just that CBS commentator Jerry Quarry said during Monzon-Valdez #2 (which I re-watched a couple of weeks ago) that Rodrigo's KD of Carlos in that fight was the 2nd in Carlos's career. I thought perhaps you'd be kind enough to name the other guy that Jerry was referring to.

    Separately, I don't think these comparisons with Hagler --in this thread--by some posters are hitting the point. There were several fighters in different weight classes who belonged on the list, such as Ali, who got nailed and took it from many, many better punchers than Monzon faced. Even if one grants that Carlos was rarely hurt . . . I go back to, well, just who nailed him over the course of his career? Not many. Hagler was nailed often, and rarely looked like he even was disturbed by it.

    BTW, Brisco was quoted as saying Hagler was the "rougher" of the two men noted here; Monzon being the one who came up short in Bennie's estimation.

    One add to someone's list above of the punchers whom Hagler fought: Wilford Scypion. He killed a man in the ring, after all (Willie Classen).

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Well, if you put any credence in Wikipedia, the Monzon bio there says that the KD by Valdez was "the first and only time (he) was ever knocked down." There's a lot of contradictory "info" about Monzon to be found floating in the ether (including one claim that he was dropped THREE times in one of his early losses), but I've never encountered any convincing evidence that anyone other than Valdez pulled the trick with Carlos. Rodrigo hit as hard as anyone Hagler ever faced, anyhow (including Hearns, Mugabi, and Roldan). Tonna was also a monster puncher (if a rather easily discouraged one).

    Briscoe is quoted as calling Hagler "rougher" than Monzon? How on earth could he know, since Marvin ran away from him like the last man in a four-forty relay?

    Scypion was a decent fighter, though not a really good one. Hell, Monzon KO'd Griffith, who killed Benny Paret. It's best not to place too much emphasis on fatal accidents like those. Earnie Shavers never left an opponent comatose, while light-fisted David Gonzalez beat Robert Wangila to death?

    It's a strange world. PeteLeo.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    True about not placing too much credence on death fights, but I recall Scypion hurt plenty of others, too. Just not Marvin.

    To the point of Briscoe's quote, I read it in The Ring or Boxing Illustrated, probably, but his words were easy to remember. He called Monzon and Hagler both great opponents but that Hagler was "rougher." In the context of which one would beat the other if they'd met. Don't ask me why it sticks in my mind but I'm sure it's what he said.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Well most cases in regards to punchers vs light hitters, the more hits gives the person the more of a shot to get killed. No fighter is relly "feather" fisted. A Gene Tunney has just of much of a chance to kill someone, as Jack Dempsey does. Only Dempsey trys to end it in a round or two while, a Tunney fight lasts longer.
    So you take more hits.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo
    Well, if you put any credence in Wikipedia, the Monzon bio there says that the KD by Valdez was "the first and only time (he) was ever knocked down." There's a lot of contradictory "info" about Monzon to be found floating in the ether (including one claim that he was dropped THREE times in one of his early losses), but I've never encountered any convincing evidence that anyone other than Valdez pulled the trick with Carlos. Rodrigo hit as hard as anyone Hagler ever faced, anyhow (including Hearns, Mugabi, and Roldan). Tonna was also a monster puncher (if a rather easily discouraged one).

    Briscoe is quoted as calling Hagler "rougher" than Monzon? How on earth could he know, since Marvin ran away from him like the last man in a four-forty relay?

    Scypion was a decent fighter, though not a really good one. Hell, Monzon KO'd Griffith, who killed Benny Paret. It's best not to place too much emphasis on fatal accidents like those. Earnie Shavers never left an opponent comatose, while light-fisted David Gonzalez beat Robert Wangila to death?

    It's a strange world. PeteLeo.
    I have to say Pete, I've never heard of anyone speak of Valdez' punching power in the same context as Hearns, Mugabi or Hart(then or now). You are the first. A hard hitter to be sure, but to say he whacks as hard as those guys seems to be a bit of an overstatement that's hard to back up with any evidence. Check out the names he knocked out and then compare it to the names Hearns ko'd. No contest.
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 06-08-2008 at 08:49 PM.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Frank
    True about not placing too much credence on death fights, but I recall Scypion hurt plenty of others, too. Just not Marvin.

    To the point of Briscoe's quote, I read it in The Ring or Boxing Illustrated, probably, but his words were easy to remember. He called Monzon and Hagler both great opponents but that Hagler was "rougher." In the context of which one would beat the other if they'd met. Don't ask me why it sticks in my mind but I'm sure it's what he said.
    It was in the Hagler/Hearns pre-fight issue of "Boxing Scene" if memory serves. I have it as well and remember the quote.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Gil Clancy (Valdez' trainer) made many such proclamations. If I remember correctly, he cited Rodrigo as the hardest puncher he was ever associated with.

    And you have to remember, Valdez FLATTENED steel-chinned Briscoe, whom neither Monzon nor Hagler ever threatened to floor. Punch for punch, at his best, Valdez was a match for anyone Marvin faced. PeteLeo.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo
    Gil Clancy (Valdez' trainer) made many such proclamations. If I remember correctly, he cited Rodrigo as the hardest puncher he was ever associated with.

    And you have to remember, Valdez FLATTENED steel-chinned Briscoe, whom neither Monzon nor Hagler ever threatened to floor. Punch for punch, at his best, Valdez was a match for anyone Marvin faced. PeteLeo.
    But the evidence we have doesn't support Clancy's claim, does it? Look at his KO percentage. Look at the (non) names that took him the limit. Also remember that trainers make loopy comments sometimes for some weird reason. I recall Emmanuel Stewart once saying that Milton McCrory was a harder puncher than Thomas Hearns. Now we're supposed to believe that Valdez was p4p a harder puncher than George Foreman(whom Clancy was also associated with)? Ludicrous. Look at the records.

    Briscoe also went the distance with him previously and if I recall, people were pretty shocked that Valdez ko'd him in the rematch. That was more of a Ali/Bonavena-Nunn/Kalambay-Robinson/Fullmer hail Mary KO than something Rodrigo did on a regular basis(again, look at his record). Compare him to Hearns, who REGULARLY knocked-out top fighters in VIOLENT fashion and in SEVERAL weight divisions.

    Based upon this you cannot compare Valdez to Hearns power-wise. There's no evidence to support it. Same goes for Mugabi, who sent bodies flying all over the place when he hit them. Valdez is definitely not in the same class as Hearns, Hart or Mugabi.
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 06-08-2008 at 09:11 PM.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    I'm not sure that Jack Johnson, Bob Fitzsimmons, Joe Gans, Joe Walcott, Dixie Kid, Peter Maher, Jack Blackburn or any number of world champions or top challengers would agree with your assessment about Grim's chin being a "fairytale".
    If we want to list fighters who spent their entire careers getting beaten up without a sniff of winning then we can produce a long, long list of great chins. Me, I'm interested in chins that stood the test when a fighter was actually trying to win the contest.

    I'm not interested in Monzon's length of career, time at the top, etc. I'm interested in WHO tested his chin and then comparing that to others. Evidence and proof are called for here.
    You're entitled to your fundamentally flawed methodology. The true test of a chin for my money is not just who hit it. A true test is competing at the very top of the game for decades and rarely if ever being hurt. As Stomp says it's not just about surviving the big hitters; it's about standing up to the precision punchers. To me being champion for that long, beating some very fine fighters and rarely being hurt is strong 'evidence and proof'.

    Carlos Monzon doesn't have the Class-A punchers on his resume to warrant inclusion on ANY respectable top 10 list, and certainly not above someone like Ali, who took it from Shavers, Liston, Foreman, Williams, Norton, Lyle, Bonavena, Frazier, ad infinitum. Or Jake LaMotta, who absorbed the bombs of punchers like Ray Robinson, Bob Satterfield and Lloyd Marshall. Or Bat Nelson, who took an unbelievable amount of huge shots from Joe Gans and Aurelio Herrera(the Earnie Shavers of his day) not to mention countless others. I wouldn't put Monzon anywhere near Marvin Hagler, who absorbed bombs from Hearns, Mugabi, Hart, Roldan and Briscoe- ALL big punchers.

    If you want to argue that Monzon is in the top 25 I wouldn't disagree. Absorbing shots from Valdez and Briscoe puts him in high standing. But definitely not top 10. Too many fighters who fought bigger punchers.
    Or are Battling Nelson and Ali just "fairytales" too?

    There's so many things wrong with this list it's hard to know where to start.
    You see, here's the problem. You ridicule the list, highlighting Monzon as one of the most ridiculous aspects of it. Then you say that Monzon is probably top 25. The difference between top 10 and top 25 is very small in this kind of list. Everyone in the list had a great chin. Are there some obvious names missing? Yes, but there are always going to be from a list such as this. Your hyperbole is misplaced...
    Last edited by Paulie W; 06-09-2008 at 05:16 AM.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    But the evidence we have doesn't support Clancy's claim, does it? Look at his KO percentage. Look at the (non) names that took him the limit. Also remember that trainers make loopy comments sometimes for some weird reason. I recall Emmanuel Stewart once saying that Milton McCrory was a harder puncher than Thomas Hearns. Now we're supposed to believe that Valdez was p4p a harder puncher than George Foreman(whom Clancy was also associated with)? Ludicrous. Look at the records.

    Briscoe also went the distance with him previously and if I recall, people were pretty shocked that Valdez ko'd him in the rematch. That was more of a Ali/Bonavena-Nunn/Kalambay-Robinson/Fullmer hail Mary KO than something Rodrigo did on a regular basis(again, look at his record). Compare him to Hearns, who REGULARLY knocked-out top fighters in VIOLENT fashion and in SEVERAL weight divisions.

    Based upon this you cannot compare Valdez to Hearns power-wise. There's no evidence to support it. Same goes for Mugabi, who sent bodies flying all over the place when he hit them. Valdez is definitely not in the same class as Hearns, Hart or Mugabi.
    Look at the records?! No, look at the fights! It is a simple task to find on most big punchers' records fighters going the distance who probably shouldnt: on Hearns' record there is DeWitt, Olajide, Minchillo, Sutherland, Kinchen. What you need to know is what factors lead to these fights going the distance: could the puncher really not hurt his opponent or was the opponent so conservative in his attack that he left very few openings?

    Your dismissmal of the Briscoe result is misjudged. Yes, it was a surprise, but not because no-one thought Valdez couldnt punch but because Briscoe was so sturdy. Your comparison with Nunn-Kalambay is way off - Sumbu was caught cold in the 1st round - and that with Robinson-Fullmer damages your argument because what that KO emphasised was just how damn hard Robinson hit.
    Last edited by Paulie W; 06-09-2008 at 05:35 AM.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Paulie, you beat me to it. PeteLeo.

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    I agree that you have to look beyond the Record book

    To qualify a fighter's power.

    Based on Records alone, Sal Sanchez Ko'd 32 of the 44 opponents he beat.

    While Ike WIlliams Ko'd only 60 of the 126 opponents he beat.

    Raw Numbers don't often tell too much.

    And to Paulie's points, WHY certain fighters went the route with a big puncher, is more important than the blanket fact that they did hear the final bell.

    Hawk

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    [QUOTE=Paulie W]If we want to list fighters who spent their entire careers getting beaten up without a sniff of winning then we can produce a long, long list of great chins. Me, I'm interested in chins that stood the test when a fighter was actually trying to win the contest.

    THE LIST IS ENTITLED "GREATEST CHINS", NOT "GREATEST CHINS THAT STOOD THE TEST WHEN A FIGHTER WAS ACTUALLY TRYING TO WIN THE CONTEST"



    You're entitled to your fundamentally flawed methodology. The true test of a chin for my money is not just who hit it. A true test is competing at the very top of the game for decades and rarely if ever being hurt.


    IN THAT CASE WE CAN PLACE VIRGIL HILL ON THIS LIST, CAN'T WE? I WATCHED HIS CAREER FROM DAY ONE AND 'RARELY IF EVER" SAW HIM GET HURT.



    As Stomp says it's not just about surviving the big hitters; it's about standing up to the precision punchers.

    I AGREE WITH HIM.


    To me being champion for that long, beating some very fine fighters and rarely being hurt is strong 'evidence and proof'.

    PROOF OF A GREAT CHIN, YES. PROOF THAT HE BELONGS IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS A JAKE LAMOTTA, WHO FOUGHT MANY MORE POWERFUL PUNCHERS, MANY MORE PRECISION PUNCHERS AND TOOK MANY MORE CONSECUTIVE POWER SHOTS, NO. PROOF THAT HE BELONGS ON THIS LIST AND NOT ALI, NO. EVIDENCE AND PROOF WOULD SUPPORT ALI. ANYTHING ELSE IS, TO USE YOUR WORDS, 'FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED METHODOLOGY'



    You see, here's the problem. You ridicule the list, highlighting Monzon as one of the most ridiculous aspects of it. Then you say that Monzon is probably top 25. The difference between top 10 and top 25 is very small in this kind of list.

    NO, I SAID I 'WOULDN'T ARGUE'. I COULD SEE HIM POSSIBLY SQUEAKING IN SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 20-25. WHAT I AM ARGUING IS THAT WE HAVE MORE EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT SEVERAL OTHER BOXERS BEING ON A TOP 10 LIST BASED ON "FIGHTING BIGGER PUNCHERS AND PRECISION HITTERS".

    Everyone in the list had a great chin. Are there some obvious names missing? Yes, but there are always going to be from a list such as this.

    AND THUS THERE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE PEOPLE POINTING OUT THESE MISSING NAMES AND RIGHTFULLY SO. A LIST THAT PLACES CARLOS MONZON OVER A JAKE LAMOTTA, JULIO CESAR CHAVEZ, BATTLING NELSON OR MUHAMMAD ALI IS UNJUST AND PATENTLY RIDICULOUS BASED ON 'PROOF AND EVIDENCE'.
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 06-09-2008 at 03:36 PM.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    Paulie W"Look at the records?! No, look at the fights! It is a simple task to find on most big punchers' records fighters going the distance who probably shouldnt: on Hearns' record there is DeWitt, Olajide, Minchillo, Sutherland, Kinchen. What you need to know is what factors lead to these fights going the distance: could the puncher really not hurt his opponent or was the opponent so conservative in his attack that he left very few openings? "

    LET'S CUT THROUGH TO THE CHASE AS YOU SEEM SO ADEPT AT CIRCUMVENTING MOST POINTS THAT ARE DAMAGING TO YOUR POINT OF VIEW. HERE IT IS- SHOW ME A LIST MATCHING OF THE TOP CONTENDERS AND CHAMPIONS THAT BOTH TOMMY HEARNS AND RODRIGO VALDEZ SCORED DECISIVE KO'S OVER, COMPARE THEM AND THEN TELL ME THAT VALDEZ' RECORD COMPARES FAVORABLY WITH HEARNS. DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT VALDEZ WAS AS HARD A PUNCHER AS TOMMY? OR MUGABI? BECAUSE THE PROOF SURE AS HECK AIN'T THERE AND I DON'T RECALL ANYONE PUTTING VALDEZ IN THAT ELITE CLASS OF PUNCHER AT "ANY" TIME IN HIS CAREER. A HARD HITTER, YES. A CRIPPLING POWERPUNCHER? PERHAPS, BUT NOT IN TOMMY'S OR MUGABI'S LEAGUE. MAYBE MY MEMORY IS FADING....

    Your dismissmal of the Briscoe result is misjudged. Yes, it was a surprise, but not because no-one thought Valdez couldnt punch but because Briscoe was so sturdy. Your comparison with Nunn-Kalambay is way off - Sumbu was caught cold in the 1st round

    THE HAIL MARY SHOT WAS THE POINT AND THAT'S WHAT VALDEZ SCORED OVER BENNY. DID VALDEZ DO THAT SORT OF THING ON A REGULAR BASIS? THE RECORD SURE DOESN'T SEEM TO INDICATE IT. HEARNS DID IT ON A REGULAR BASIS. SO DID MUGABI.

    OK, DON'T LIKE THE NUNN EXAMPLE? HOW ABOUT KALAMBAY/DEWITT?

    and that with Robinson-Fullmer damages your argument because what that KO emphasised was just how damn hard Robinson hit.[/QUOTE]

    IF THAT WERE THE CASE THEN SRR WOULD HAVE KNOCKED OUT FULLMER EVERY TIME THEY FOUGHT. IT WAS A HAIL MARY SHOT...JUST LIKE VALDEZ' KO SHOT OF BRISCOE. AGAIN, VALDEZ DIDN'T USUALLY DO THINGS LIKE THAT, DID HE? HEARNS DID. DID IT ALMOST HIS ENTIRE CAREER. SAME WITH MUGABI.
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 06-09-2008 at 03:25 PM.

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    Re: I agree that you have to look beyond the Record book

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    To qualify a fighter's power.

    Based on Records alone, Sal Sanchez Ko'd 32 of the 44 opponents he beat.

    While Ike WIlliams Ko'd only 60 of the 126 opponents he beat.

    Raw Numbers don't often tell too much.

    And to Paulie's points, WHY certain fighters went the route with a big puncher, is more important than the blanket fact that they did hear the final bell.

    Hawk
    Be honest here, Hawk. I don't really believe that you think that Valdez is as hard a hitter as Tommy Hearns, John Mugabi or Cyclone Hart. The films I've seen sure wouldn't indicate it, nor would a glance at his record.

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    Re: ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

    In addition to the others on Mr. Graham's list, here's 10 other you could make a clear case for being more deserving on this list based on ANY criteria.

    Battling Nelson
    Julio Cesar Chavez
    Muhammad Ali
    Sam Langford
    Jim Jeffries
    Joe Grim
    Tex Cobb
    Barney Ross
    Billy Petrolle
    Roberto Duran

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