ESPN (Graham Houston) List of Greatest Chins

[Paulie W]

My point of view, Surf, is that you initial post suggesting that the list was rubbish and that Graham Houston had no clue what he was talking about was over-the-top. My view was first driven by my opinion that Houston is a pretty decent writer and knows a bit about boxing history. In other words, his list and his right to produce such a list didnt merit your assessment. By all means disagree - it wouldnt be my top 10 either - but there is no need to be so disparaging - particuarly as you had no clue who he was and to be frank he's been writing about boxing for a good few years for estimable publications such as the British Boxing News so the fact you didnt know who he was seems odd to me.

As to methodolgy, you keep acting like this is a precise science: it's not; it's largely a subjective process we're talking about here. Your calls to evidence and proof in the context are slightly amusing because to me knocking out Bennie Briscoe is a pretty clear proof of Valdez' s power but for you its an anomaly (although you do concede that he might be a 'crippling powerpuncher'!!!). Anyway, the point is that I see Valdez and Briscoe and Tonna as murderous punchers who Monzon traded with and came out largely unscathed, and that this, coupled with his longevity - getting hit on the chin by world class fighters for a decade - is a mark of a great, great chin. You dont.

[Michael Frank]

But the evidence we have doesn't support Clancy's claim, does it? Look at his KO percentage. Look at the (non) names that took him the limit. Also remember that trainers make loopy comments sometimes for some weird reason. I recall Emmanuel Stewart once saying that Milton McCrory was a harder puncher than Thomas Hearns. Now we're supposed to believe that Valdez was p4p a harder puncher than George Foreman(whom Clancy was also associated with)? Ludicrous. Look at the records.

Briscoe also went the distance with him previously and if I recall, people were pretty shocked that Valdez ko'd him in the rematch. That was more of a Ali/Bonavena-Nunn/Kalambay-Robinson/Fullmer hail Mary KO than something Rodrigo did on a regular basis(again, look at his record). Compare him to Hearns, who REGULARLY knocked-out top fighters in VIOLENT fashion and in SEVERAL weight divisions.

Based upon this you cannot compare Valdez to Hearns power-wise. There's no evidence to support it. Same goes for Mugabi, who sent bodies flying all over the place when he hit them. Valdez is definitely not in the same class as Hearns, Hart or Mugabi.

AND

In addition to the others on Mr. Graham's list, here's 10 other you could make a clear case for being more deserving on this list based on ANY criteria.

Battling Nelson
Julio Cesar Chavez
Muhammad Ali
Sam Langford
Jim Jeffries
Joe Grim
Tex Cobb
Barney Ross
Billy Petrolle
Roberto Duran

Surf-Bat, I'm with you completely. Rodrigo Valdez KOs Briscoe and now he's the greatest puncher around because he did, what, the unthinkable? Hey, guys with good chins get nailed and they go, it happens plenty. Tyson was thought to have a top-rate chin, Roldan was thought to, Liston, Fullmer, Hamsho (thought to have a lead chin until Hagler rang it a bit), Tim Witherspoon even . . . one KO over a fine Briscoe beard doesn't make Valdez a Hearns or Mugabi, who did this with regularity. No one had ever dropped Ray Leonard, then Howard does it . . . does Kevin then have the "super" power of Valdez?? So Monzon getting up from a Valdez blow or withstanding a few others from him doesn't show me an all-time chin, just a clearly good one.

Surf, your list of top chins is compelling. Chavez, who was hit by many top-ranked fighters for years, was thought to have a granite chin-- hell he never even got a bruise in a fight-- until around fight number 95 or so, when Randall dropped him. Monzon? To his credit, he just wasn't nailed that much. So I'm not putting his chin there with that of Ali, Chavez, Tex Cobb, and the rest on Surf-Bat's list. Those guys got nailed often and rarely looked the worse for wear.

Paulie, respectfully as always, I don't think because a guy writes for any publication makes him an authority. The authorities are the people they cite, who are too busy to be writers IMO. Unfortunately for me, I know quite a few "writers," and they are not experts about their subjects, they just do a little passable research of real experts.

Look at the garbage articles floating around on the internet on our sport, boxing. Heck, look at award-winner Jim Murray of the L.A. Times, who in 1984 called Michael Spinks a "runner." To me, up to that time, I viewed Spinks as a stalker/KO artist, who took to flight only against Qawi to that point in his career.

[starlingstomp]

Paulie W"Look at the records?! No, look at the fights! It is a simple task to find on most big punchers' records fighters going the distance who probably shouldnt: on Hearns' record there is DeWitt, Olajide, Minchillo, Sutherland, Kinchen. What you need to know is what factors lead to these fights going the distance: could the puncher really not hurt his opponent or was the opponent so conservative in his attack that he left very few openings? "

LET'S CUT THROUGH TO THE CHASE AS YOU SEEM SO ADEPT AT CIRCUMVENTING MOST POINTS THAT ARE DAMAGING TO YOUR POINT OF VIEW. HERE IT IS- SHOW ME A LIST MATCHING OF THE TOP CONTENDERS AND CHAMPIONS THAT BOTH TOMMY HEARNS AND RODRIGO VALDEZ SCORED DECISIVE KO'S OVER, COMPARE THEM AND THEN TELL ME THAT VALDEZ' RECORD COMPARES FAVORABLY WITH HEARNS. DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT VALDEZ WAS AS HARD A PUNCHER AS TOMMY? OR MUGABI? BECAUSE THE PROOF SURE AS HECK AIN'T THERE AND I DON'T RECALL ANYONE PUTTING VALDEZ IN THAT ELITE CLASS OF PUNCHER AT "ANY" TIME IN HIS CAREER. A HARD HITTER, YES. A CRIPPLING POWERPUNCHER? PERHAPS, BUT NOT IN TOMMY'S OR MUGABI'S LEAGUE. MAYBE MY MEMORY IS FADING....

Your dismissmal of the Briscoe result is misjudged. Yes, it was a surprise, but not because no-one thought Valdez couldnt punch but because Briscoe was so sturdy. Your comparison with Nunn-Kalambay is way off - Sumbu was caught cold in the 1st round

THE HAIL MARY SHOT WAS THE POINT AND THAT'S WHAT VALDEZ SCORED OVER BENNY. DID VALDEZ DO THAT SORT OF THING ON A REGULAR BASIS? THE RECORD SURE DOESN'T SEEM TO INDICATE IT. HEARNS DID IT ON A REGULAR BASIS. SO DID MUGABI.

OK, DON'T LIKE THE NUNN EXAMPLE? HOW ABOUT KALAMBAY/DEWITT?

and that with Robinson-Fullmer damages your argument because what that KO emphasised was just how damn hard Robinson hit.

IF THAT WERE THE CASE THEN SRR WOULD HAVE KNOCKED OUT FULLMER EVERY TIME THEY FOUGHT. IT WAS A HAIL MARY SHOT...JUST LIKE VALDEZ' KO SHOT OF BRISCOE. AGAIN, VALDEZ DIDN'T USUALLY DO THINGS LIKE THAT, DID HE? HEARNS DID. DID IT ALMOST HIS ENTIRE CAREER. SAME WITH MUGABI.[/QUOTE]

I've never really thought of a hail mary in those terms.To me, a hail mary in boxing, is something like Jackson vs Graham, Castro vs Jackson or Barkley vs Hearns.Something done in desperation\frustration and usually very much against the flow of the fight.A "pray it lands" kind of thing.

With Valdez and Robinson, they threw the kind of punches that took Fullmer and Briscoe out in most of their fights, often to devastating effect.He stopped Briscoe once out of the two bouts they had when both were still in their prime.Valdez reputation only continued to grow with that stoppage, it didn't come out of nowhere.



Valdez was a slow starter and wasn't the best at tracking mobile fighters down.He would take the same sort of lazy approach Duran had to the likes of Viruet and Fernandez.Add in that he was a patient textbook boxer-puncher that took openings as they presented themselves..not a seek and destroy fighter, or someone that loaded up all the time like Mugabi.

It's not surprising that a number of fighters managed to last TEN rounds with him in low-key non-title fights.I'm guessing it was a similar sitatuation and mentality with Ike Williams.They had a "do just enough" approach to winning fights-with the necessary amount of skills to be able to fight like that.

[starlingstomp]

C'mon michael, comparing Valdez to Howard is ridiculous.

I think you may be letting your low opinion of Monzon cloud your judgement of the man somewhat.

[Surf-Bat]

[QUOTE=Paulie W]My point of view, Surf, is that you initial post suggesting that the list was rubbish and that Graham Houston had no clue what he was talking about was over-the-top.

WITH ALL THE IRON-CHINNED BATTLERS HE EXCLUDED(MOST OF WHOM I'VE ALREADY LISTED), COUPLED WITH SOMETHING AS GLARINGLY SILLY AS PLACING MONZON OVER LAMOTTA OR MARCIANO OVER CHUVALO, HE GAVE ME LITTLE CHOICE.


My view was first driven by my opinion that Houston is a pretty decent writer and knows a bit about boxing history.

MAYBE, BUT HIS LIST CERTAINLY WASN'T INDICATIVE OF IT.

In other words, his list and his right to produce such a list didnt merit your assessment. By all means disagree - it wouldnt be my top 10 either - but there is no need to be so disparaging -

OH, YOU MEAN MY "TURN IN YOUR CREDENTIALS" COMMENT? SHEESH! GET A SENSE OF HUMOR ALREADY. I'M SURE MR. HOUSTON HAS ONE.

particuarly as you had no clue who he was and to be frank he's been writing about boxing for a good few years for estimable publications such as the British Boxing News so the fact you didnt know who he was seems odd to me.

MULLAN, DOOGAN, MYLER.....I KNOW PLENTY OF BOXING WRITERS FROM ACROSS THE POND. MUST I KNOW "ALL' OF THEM? I'M SURE I'VE READ PLENTY OF HOUSTON'S ARTICLES AS I READ QUITE A BIT OF BOXING. MEMORIZING NAMES ISN'T A TOP PRIORITY UNTIL A WRITER HAS REALLY CAUGHT MY ATTENTION.


Your calls to evidence and proof in the context are slightly amusing because to me knocking out Bennie Briscoe is a pretty clear proof of Valdez' s power but for you its an anomaly (although you do concede that he might be a 'crippling powerpuncher'!!!).

NOT AN 'ANOMALY', JUST NOT ENOUGH TO WARRANT RANKING HIM THE THE HEARNS/MUGABI/HART CLASS OF POWERPUNCHER. MOST WHO'VE SEEN ALL OF THESE GENTS FIGHT WOULD AGREE. THE BRISCOE FIGHT SEEMS TO BE THE ONLY THING (CALL IT 'EXHIBIT A') YOU CAN HANG YOUR HAT ON HERE AS EVIDENCE THAT HE BELONGS IN THAT CLASS. SHALL I LIST TOMMY HEARNS' KO'S? CUZ WITH THAT WE HAVE EXHIBIT A, B, C, D, E, F, G....AD INFINITUM.

Anyway, the point is that I see Valdez and Briscoe and Tonna as murderous punchers who Monzon traded with and came out largely unscathed,

AS MUCH CREDIT SHOULD GO TO HIS BOXING ABILITY AND SKILL IN AVOIDING PUNISHMENT AS HIS STRONG CHIN.

and that this is, coupled with his longevity - getting hit on the chin by wold class fighters for a decade -

AGAIN, READ MY VIRGIL HILL COMPARISON. LOTS OF GUYS HAVE TAKEN IT ON THE CHIN BY WORLD CLASS FIGHTERS FOR A DECADE.


is a mark of a great, great chin.

You dont.

SURE I DO. AND I HAVE STATED AS MUCH(A PART OF THIS DEBATE THAT YOU HAVE COMPLETELY IGNORED). JUST NOT IN THE TOP 10 WHEN COMPARED TO THE FIGHTERS I'VE NAMED.

IN FAIRNESS TO MR. HOUSTON, HE DOES AT LEAST HAVE SOME OF THE RIGHT NAMES ON HIS LIST. HAGLER, CHUVALO, FARR, LAMOTTA, ETC.

[Surf-Bat]

C'mon michael, comparing Valdez to Howard is ridiculous.

I think you may be letting your low opinion of Monzon cloud your judgement of the man somewhat.

Personally, I have a very high opinion of Lord Carlos. But it's a sober one and I don't feel that he ranks in any top 10 chins list. Not unless you ignore the mountain of evidence we have that gives credence to the many other fighters more deserving of this accolade.

Does taking the occasional powershot from Valdez or Briscoe rank with say, Sam Langford taking powershots from Joe Gans(considered at the time to be the hardest-hitting lightweight champ ever)? Or Joe Walcott(Ditto, but at Welter)? Kid Norfolk(the most feared light-heavy of his day)? Jack Johnson(who outweighed him by so much)? Harry Wills(in some 16 battles if memory serves)?

So many examples can be cited.

[Michael Frank]

C'mon michael, comparing Valdez to Howard is ridiculous.

I think you may be letting your low opinion of Monzon cloud your judgement of the man somewhat.

True, Starling, bad analogy. I only meant that one KD of a fine-chinned boxer doesn't make the guy scoring the knockdown a KO artist. But true, Valdez was much the better puncher, and fighter, than Howard. Different class.

Actually, I don't have a low opinion of Monzon at all, just never saw him as the #1 middleweight when considering with Robinson, Greb, etc. I'll readily admit he beat everyone around, even if they weren't all that great and even if it took him many rounds to accomplish, usually. This for a Monzon who was said to have dropped JOE FRAZIER in a gym. (Obviously a tale I don't believe.)

But, seriously, I consider Monzon one of the great middleweights.

[starlingstomp]

Surf i don't see those examples as anymore silly than putting Winky Wright in a top ten defensive fighters of all-time list, McCallum above Arguello as a bodypuncher, Bonavena above Laciar etc...Just to use some examples of the good lists you have put up in this section.Examples i disagree with.

These are arguable and maybe somewhat unusual viewpoints, but not something that needed to met with disdain, or dismissal.

getting back on topic regarding greatest chins..if i was arguing Marciano over Chuvalo(which i probably wouldn't), i would point out that Chuvalo tended to have a very methodical style where he saw 95% of everything that came his way, giving him time to brace for impact.

marciano took more risks and got hit a lot more off-balance or with shots he didn't see.I could easily see someone being more impressed by that.

This is the main reason why i would never put Tex Cobb too high.Certainly not over a Monzon.

Cobb was for the most part a punchbag that just sucked up punishment.He was damn good at it, but it aint truly elite chin material IMO.I tend to agree with Paulie's viewpoint on this kind of fighter.

I'd hasten to add btw that i don't consider Chuvalo to have been a punchbag.

[hawk5ins]

I do not See Hearns KOing Briscoe or dropping Monzon.

At 160, Valdez was the bigger puncher.

Hearns' Ko's at 160 consisted of James Shuler, Jeff McCraken, Marcos Geraldo and Juan Roldan.

Now at least 2 of these were spectacular KO's and were indeed impressive.

But There is not a Bennie Briscoe Chin anywhere to be found here.

I think Monzon's beard Speaks for itself. ANd I think Valdez's punch was an awesome weapon at 160 pounds.

Hawk

[PeteLeo]

Let's take a breath here and go to the record books. Tommy Hearns was something like 3-2 as a middleweight, with two KO wins and two KO losses. Hardly an overwhelming total.

Who did Cyclone Hart ever stop to be within shouting distance of a "great middleweight punchers" conversation? Kitten Hayward? A real good boxer, but hardly an iron man, plus his record was around 1-5-1 leading up to their match. Doc Holliday? Well, Valdez stopped the Doc when he (Holliday) was still undefeated. Just about every good fighter Hart ever faced off with kicked his ass (he was KO'd eight or nine times in a not particularly extensive career). This guy ranks as a better middleweight puncher than Valdez?

Mugabi's record certainly looks glossy, but where's the beef? Nearly all of his quick demolition jobs were against guys who never came close to world class or who had smelled the air up there and then receded back to journeyman status.

Taken as a whole, there's not a single middleweight name in the KO columns of the three that's as impressive as Benny Briscoe. Benny may not have been a worldbeater overall, but you just did not knock the man out.

Unless you were Rodrigo Valdez. PeteLeo.

[PeteLeo]

One more point: I don't believe close followers of the sport ever regarded Roldan's chin as anything special. In fact, my first view of the man came during his amateur days when a very young Alex Ramos blew him out in the first round.

Roldan reminds me of a middleweight Oleg Maskaev. If you let him have his way, he can get on a damned impressive roll, but that apparently bear-like jaw has a lot of Goldilocks in it. PeteLeo.

[Surf-Bat]

PeteLeo]"Let's take a breath here and go to the record books. Tommy Hearns was something like 3-2 as a middleweight, with two KO wins and two KO losses. Hardly an overwhelming total."

Tossing your figures around a bit there, aren't ya, Pete? He beat more than just 3 middleweights.

Tommy Hearns has knocked out men from welter all the way up to light heavyweight, Pete. And I don't make a huge distinction between the 8 traditional weight divisions and the so-called "junior" divisions. The way I see it, the 6 or so pounds makes very little difference and a big puncher at jr middle is usually as good as one at middle. Hearns brutally ko'd Duran at 154(think Valdez could have done that? I don't). The same Duran was still able to slam bang with heavy-handed Iran Barkley at 160 and take it. A testament to TH's power.

He rocked Hagler, splattered Roldan and the UNDEFEATED Shuler, floored but couldn't finish the reluctant, defensive-minded Michael Olajide(who had a good chin), went up and KO'd light heavy champ Andries(not a great fighter, but still a legit light heavy). He carried his power across all divisions. You're not going to convince me that Rodrigo Valdez was a harder puncher than Thomas Hearns. I've seen enough film of both fighters and I just don't see it. And look at the records- The evidence just isn't there.


"Who did Cyclone Hart ever stop to be within shouting distance of a "great middleweight punchers" conversation? Kitten Hayward? A real good boxer, but hardly an iron man, plus his record was around 1-5-1 leading up to their match. Doc Holliday? Well, Valdez stopped the Doc when he (Holliday) was still undefeated. Just about every good fighter Hart ever faced off with kicked his ass (he was KO'd eight or nine times in a not particularly extensive career). This guy ranks as a better middleweight puncher than Valdez?"

No, just harder. Earnie Shavers wasn't as great a puncher as George Foreman, either. Ask their common opponents who hit harder. Shavers. Ask opponents about Cyclone Hart. And who did Tonna ko that was so much better than Kitten Hayward? I can make the same dig about Tonna as you are about Cyclone.



"Mugabi's record certainly looks glossy, but where's the beef? Nearly all of his quick demolition jobs were against guys who never came close to world class or who had smelled the air up there and then receded back to journeyman status."

Unlike Valdez, who FAILED to KO many of his eras journeymen, etc. And Mugabi knocked out some ranked contenders. Look it up.


"Taken as a whole, there's not a single middleweight name in the KO columns of the three that's as impressive as Benny Briscoe."

A single KO? Maybe not. Overall? Hearns has him beat hands down. And don't underestimate the significance of Tommy's KO of Duran. NOBODY even came close to doing that to Roberto, before or after.


"Benny may not have been a worldbeater overall, but you just did not knock the man out.

Unless you were Rodrigo Valdez."

And I still maintain that this was one of those rare, hail mary type ko's and not the norm when you look at the career of Rodrigo Valdez(the fact that Bennie went the distance TWICE with him[a total of 27 rounds] is very telling). How many top middleweight contenders did he KO? Cuz I ain't seeing too many of them on his record. Just a lot of names I've never heard of....many of whom went the distance with him(compare with Mugabi, please).

[Surf-Bat]

"One more point: I don't believe close followers of the sport ever regarded Roldan's chin as anything special. In fact, my first view of the man came during his amateur days when a very young Alex Ramos blew him out in the first round. "

Yeah, Mike tyson got ko'd in his amateur days too, by some Latino fighter who's name I can't even remember. That's a complete non-issue.


"Roldan reminds me of a middleweight Oleg Maskaev. If you let him have his way, he can get on a damned impressive roll, but that apparently bear-like jaw has a lot of Goldilocks in it."

Hearns hammered him to the floor and rocked him several times early in their fight with huge punches. Hardly a case of Juan "having his way". Then he came back and rocked Tommy with some brutal punches of his own.

Let's get back to the issue. We're swaying WAY off. The only point that interests me is whether or not Monzon belonged on the top 10 list. I've given examples of fighters who clearly deserve the nod over him. Anyone care to debate that?

[PeteLeo]

Maybe I just don't have the right reading glasses on, but I simply can't see what you're trying to get at. Because Cyclone basically got beaten up and shit-canned by every decent-level fighter he ever fought, he hit harder than a Valdez who KO'd solid title contenders like Cohen, Briscoe, and Tonna? Huh? Hart didn't prove his power against a single solid title threat, so how in the world can you equate his performance with Rodrigo's taking out experienced, savvy, and tough guys throughout his career (he never slid into the toilet like Hart did in the final leg of his career). For my money, Cyclone didn't do a thing to pay his way into this conversation.

Hearns bounced around in weight, true, and he hit hard in most of his bouts, but his basic middleweight career started with the loss to Hagler and ended with the first Barkley embarrassment. In that stretch he was 3-2. Duran was not a middleweight victim of his.

I don't think I've ever heard the name "Michael Olajide" associated with the words "good chin" in the same sentence. Olajide had a pretty awful beard, actually. He was quick enough with his hands and feet to protect it fairly well, but when a solid rap found his sweet spot, be not only fell, he threw himself at the canvas. I've seen few funnier things in boxing than his bout with Barkley, in which he resembled a slapstick comedian doing an impression of a hurt boxer.

Was Mike Tyson undefeated and considered the best amateur boxer on his continent when he was stopped? Probably not, but these are the claims made for Roldan by Howard Cosell on my tape of the match with Alex Ramos. In fact, it was expected to be pretty much a slaughter at the first bell. It was, but the "rock-chinned" Roldan was the one whose throat had been cut a couple of minutes into the bout.

I said that -- like Maskaev (once described by Jim Lampley has having a "concrete chin") -- Roldan could get on a roll if his opponent didn't connect first . . . so what does that have to do with the Hearns match? Tommy pretty much ate him up. Yeah, there was the momentary glitch from a Roldan left hand, but losing three rounds and thirty seconds out of fight that lasted about three rounds and fifty seconds is hardly an advertisement for mandibular soundness.

Who did Tonna annihilate who was better than Kitten Hayward? Jean Mateo for one. Look him up.

Mugabi had the "undefeated all by KO" intimidation factor in his favor (and it was really played up big by his publicity people and the networks -- primarily NBC) early on, so we should consider that at least some of the journeymen he blasted out went into the bouts half-beaten already. (Fighters are human, they have fears just like us, even if they're gutsy enough to face them. Listen to Pinklon Thomas describe how he felt about going in against Coetzee following their draw.) Once John faced a guy who didn't fold after a few samples of his power, the illusion and effectiveness of "the Beast" persona was largely negated. Look at his subsequent career. Valdez may have lost to slick-boxing Corro on the downhill, but he was never embarrassed by a tender-chinned wonder like Terry Norris.

Hart I just can't accept; he simply doesn't have the results. Mugabi had a nice run but never proved himself at the top level. Hearns was a monster, but it's tough to justify that description given the mediocre results of his actual middleweight career (Hagler to Barkley). For me, no member of that trio can stand next to Valdez as a middleweight puncher.

To deny that a powerful man like Rodrigo landing his best shot on Monzon in Carlos' last bout (when other great chins like Cobb and Fullmer were cracking like aging pottery) and having Monzon survive that moment to win the fight is proof of a granite jaw is simply baffling to me. Maybe Greb or Langford or Ali or somebody could have stood up better to being slammed by a softball bat, but including Monzon in the Hall of Fame for punch-taking doesn't lessen that august group one whit. PeteLeo.

[Paulie W]

OH, YOU MEAN MY "TURN IN YOUR CREDENTIALS" COMMENT? SHEESH! GET A SENSE OF HUMOR ALREADY. I'M SURE MR. HOUSTON HAS ONE.

Oh, I get it now: you were being funny! Forget everything I've said...

IN FAIRNESS TO MR. HOUSTON, HE DOES AT LEAST HAVE SOME OF THE RIGHT NAMES ON HIS LIST. HAGLER, CHUVALO, FARR, LAMOTTA, ETC.

He's not a complete idiot then!

The 'right names' thing is my problem here because it is indicative of the way in which some people approach these lists, as if it is an objective rather than a subjective process. Chins are a particular problem because a record can show a man was never knocked out or even down but that may be because he rarely got hit clean. Another fighter who visited the canvas often, who was perhaps even stopped more than once, might in fact have had a better chin but perhaps he fought in a more aggressive style, perhaps even recklessly or off balance.

Judging a chin on the 'record' or on the power-punchers a man fought is only part of the story: watching the fights or reading detailed accounts gives a clearer picture. I watch Monzon and I see an iron-chinned fighter; he did get hit by Briscoe and Valdez and Tonna and many other top level fighters and he took it and fought back hard. He wasnt hanging his chin out like Tex Cobb but then neither did Hagler. I probably wouldnt have put him in a top 10 myself but he belongs in this conversation IMO. Nobody in the initial list didnt belong in the conversation: he hadnt put Floyd Mayweather in there, for example. Here's another 10 fighters who we can throw into the mix based on record:

Panama Al Brown
Nel Tarleton
Duilio Loi
Oliver McCall
Eder Jofre
Gorilla Jones
Jack Britton
Mike Gibbons
Salvador Sanchez
Marcel Cerdan

[hawk5ins]

The Ring Magazine's Hardest Punchers edition, listed Valdez #29 all Time out of the 100 Greatest punchers of all.

Whihc was behind #18 Tommy Hearns, who it was pointed out that as he rose in weight from Welterweight, his power did diminish (90% at 147. 50% at 154 and 40% at 160.).

An insteresting stat on Valdez's power. After 21 bouts he had scored only 9 ko's on a 19-1-1 record. However, over the remainder of his career, and as the competition was upgraded, he scored 32 KO's in his 44 wins.

Valdez was listed ahead of punchers like Briscoe (34) and John Mugabi (38. Whihc surprised me a bit considering many of the KO's Mugabi had at 154.). And well ahead of Hart (#61) whom it is noted that HIS biggest KO win, came over Kitten Hayward.

Agian, this magazine's list is NOT gospel. Not even close. Much I do NOT agree with. But I did want to point out that there were others who did indeed think Rodrigo Valdez was a Huge puncher and that it was not JUST Gil Clancy.

And the power that Monzon stood up to twice, I think is indeed a testament to his granite Chin.

To Paulie's point here, would I PERSONALLY have listed Monzon among the top 10 chins ever? I'm not entirely sure I would have. But it is CERTAINLY not absurd to have him among the top 10. His Beard CERTAINLY deserves to be in the conversation.

Hawk

[Michael Frank]

The Ring Magazine's Hardest Punchers edition, listed Valdez #29 all Time out of the 100 Greatest punchers of all.

Not arguing with the overall post, in which Ring's authority on this subject was assessed and your disagreement with them noted, but to me, Valdez is No Way #29 all-time as a puncher. Not extrapolating here to Monzon's chin or anything else, but Valdez neither statistically nor visually just doesn't rise to this level, IMO.

When I think of boxing's greatest bangers, throughout history and in all divisions, I think of heavies like Shavers, Foreman, Louis, Tyson, and Dempsey, who rocked you with almost anything they hit you with. Add Frazier and Marciano to that group, where one punch or a flurry from these two guys broke bones or at least spirits, and leveled people. And Roberto Duran broke more than spirits, scoring mucho KOs at nearly every weight in which he competed.

Recall also the fighters who threw rockets and sent people flying--like Nigel Benn, Tommy Hearns, John Mugabi, Michael Spinks, Alexis Arguello, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad and Matthew Saad Muhammad. Danny "Little Red" Lopez. And Julian Jackson, of course. Also Rocky Graziano. And Sugar Ray Robinson. Archie Moore. Oh and Bob Satterfield, lest we forget.

Go to the scoreboard--statistics--and look at the Wilfredo Gomez's and Thomas Hearns's (o.k., Tommy makes the above list AND this list). How about Gerald "G-Man" McClellan, with 29 KOs in 31 wins. Ricardo Lopez. Julio Cesar Chavez, with 86 KOs in 107 wins . . . a brutal puncher. Ruben Mr. KO Olivares.

Heck, I think Holyfield was a harder PFP puncher than Valdez. Don't be so sure Valdez punches harder than Marvelous Marvin Hagler--Marvin stopped all challengers brutally except for Duran and his loss to Leonard, in which he never really nailed either to the chin. I'm not sure at all that Valdez was the puncher that Roy Jones Jr. was. How bout Ron Lyle?

These are just 30 or so punchers a non-expert poster like me came up with over a coffee break. I didn't even delve much into the old-timers. Nor the many others I have simply forgotten for the moment.

But no way is Valdez one of history's greatest 29 punchers, even if the biased (but otherwise admirable) Gil Clancy might also give him a vote. Valdez left fully 1/3 of the opponents he defeated standing at the final bell, that's right -- 1/3 decisions. Knocking out Briscoe doesn't change all the rest.

All just my opinion. Cheers.

[hawk5ins]

Valdez was or was not the 29th greatest puncher of all time is irrelevant.

I was addressing Surf's question of "Other than Gil Clancy, who has ever cited Valdez as a great puncher?"

Well The Ring would be one, based on this special.

Listen: I have issues with the list as well. Sal Sanchez made the top 100. I've openly stated this is a bad selection.

But my denigration or endorsement of the list isn't the point.

Valdez was one heck of a puncher. A GREAT puncher if you will. At 160 pounds. His KO %, the results he registered over other quality middleweights and his Ko of Bennie Briscoe belie this.

Cyclone Hart, Thomas Hearns, John Mugabi. At 160 pounds, what result on any of THESE fighters resumes AT 160, Compares to what Valdez accomplished over a fighter and a Chin, such as Briscoe?

This question is being avoided like the plague here.

Valdez WAS an accomplished puncher with a Notable, standout, marquee (etc etc) Ko over a high quality Chin (Briscoe) on his resume. At Middleweight.

THIS, will enter you into the discussion of the Greatest punchers, on ANY level.

Number 29? Who Knows? I have never compiled a list of the 100 greatest punchers of all time. If I did, I'm quite certain Valdez would make the list.

I do remember Bert Sugar putting together a list (no detail, just a strict list of names) of the 50 greatest punchers of all time and he had Valdez in there.

Nigel Collins in his book Boxing Babylon, described Valdez as a "talented, Viscious hitting" fighter.

Peter Walsh in Men of Steel had nothing but high praise for Valdez's power.

Valdez has been consistantly been described as big puncher, throughout the years. To suggest he was not, strikes me as very curious.

Monzon's chin was remarkable as well. To dismiss Valdez's punch for the purpose of dismissing Monzon's chin, strikes me as even more curious.

The point of the previous post of mine and this one as well, was simply to demonstrate that there are other opinions out there in the boxing world (beyond just Gil Clancy), who seem to be seeing what many on this thread are stating: That Valdez was a very formidible puncher. ANd by by having stood up to those punches, that Monzon possessed an Awesome Chin.

Both deserving of making notable lists based on the category.

Hawk

[Surf-Bat]

PeteLeo:

"Hearns bounced around in weight, true, and he hit hard in most of his bouts, but his basic middleweight career started with the loss to Hagler and ended with the first Barkley embarrassment. In that stretch he was 3-2. Duran was not a middleweight victim of his."

NO, HIS MIDDLEWEIGHT FIGHTS STARTED IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE LEONARD FIGHT WITH 3 STRAIGHT WINS(2 KO'S) OVER SINGLETARY, GERALDO AND McCRACKEN. ALL WERE MIDDLEWEIGHTS. THEN FOUGHT AND BEAT MURRAY SUTHERLAND, A FORMER "LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT" CONTENDER.

HE THEN BRUTALLY KO'D DURAN(WHO ACCORDING TO YOU "WAS NOT A MIDDLEWEIGHT"- AS IF 154 AND 160 WERE THAT HUGE A DIFFERENCE[6 WHOLE POUNDS!]) AND DOES IT IN A FASHION NOBODY HAD EVER DONE BEFORE OR SINCE TO ROBERTO AT "ANY" WEIGHT.

LATER ON IN HIS CAREER HE KO'S JAMES SHULER- THE UNDEFEATED, NO. 1 RANKED MIDDLEWEIGHT IN THE WORLD- WITH A SINGLE PUNCH IN THE FIRST ROUND. HE SAVAGELY FLOORS TOP 10 MIDDLEWEIGHT JUAN ROLDAN SEVERAL TIMES BEFORE STOPPING HIM WITH A SINGLE PUNCH IN 4. HE ROCKS IRON-CHINNED CHAMPION HAGLER[BREAKING HIS HAND IN THE PROCESS].

ARE YOU WITH ME SO FAR? THAT'S ONE-PUNCH KNOCKOUTS OVER 'TWO' TOP 10 MIDDLEWEIGHTS AND A GREAT(ALBEIT BRIEF) SHOW OF POWER AGAINST THE CHAMP. THIS IS NOT AN INDICATOR OF TOMMY NOT HAVING POWER AT MIDDLEWEIGHT.

HE ALSO STOPPED MARK MEDAL, BUT I GUESS I CAN'T BRING THAT ONE UP BECAUSE MEDAL WAS 6 POUNDS "UNDER" THE MIDDLEWEIGHT LIMIT AND THUS A "JUNIOR" MIDDLEWEIGHT

I'VE ALREADY MENTIONED HIS STOPPAGE OF LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT DENNIS ANDRIES, SO I WON'T BELABOR.

ALL IN ALL, THE POST-147 HEARNS HAD PRETTY AWESOME POWER STILL, HUH? DEFINITELY MORE IMPRESSIVE THAN ANYTHING I'VE SEEN FROM VALDEZ. AND CALL ME CRAZY BUT I CAN DEFINITELY SEE HEARNS STOPPING BENNIE BRISCOE(IF HE COULD HAVE SURVIVED BB'S SHOTS LONG ENOUGH TO DO SO. VERY DEBATABLE). HE HAD THAT KIND OF POWER, FOLKS. AND IS IT THAT MUCH A STRETCH OF THE OL' IMAGINATION TO ENVISION HIM DROPPING MONZON AS VALDEZ DID? HEARNS- WHO WAS SO MUCH FASTER AND A MUCH BETTER FINISHER THAN RODRIGO? NOT TO ME.

I don't think I've ever heard the name "Michael Olajide" associated with the words "good chin" in the same sentence. Olajide had a pretty awful beard, actually. He was quick enough with his hands and feet to protect it fairly well, but when a solid rap found his sweet spot, be not only fell, he threw himself at the canvas. I've seen few funnier things in boxing than his bout with Barkley, in which he resembled a slapstick comedian doing an impression of a hurt boxer.

OTHER THAN HIS FINAL FIGHT, OLAJIDE WAS KO'D ONLY ONCE IN HIS CAREER AND THAT WAS TO POWERPUNCHER BARKLEY(HE FINISHED ON HIS FEET, BTW). AWFUL BEARD? I RESERVE THAT DISTINCTION FOR THE MIKE WEAVERS AND ROGER MAYWEATHERS OF THE WORLD.



Hart I just can't accept; he simply doesn't have the results. Mugabi had a nice run but never proved himself at the top level. Hearns was a monster, but it's tough to justify that description given the mediocre results of his actual middleweight career (Hagler to Barkley). For me, no member of that trio can stand next to Valdez as a middleweight puncher.

I SAW MUGABI HIT HAGLER WITH MORE CRIPPLING POWER SHOTS IN 10 ROUNDS THAN I SAW VALDEZ HIT MONZON WITH IN 15 ROUNDS(IN EITHER FIGHT). NO, MUGABI AND HART CANNOT STAND NEXT TO VALDEZ IN TERMS OF GREATNESS AS A PUNCHER. THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE HERE. THE ISSUE WAS WHO HAD MORE POP TO THEIR SHOTS. MUGABI'S AND HART'S FAILURE TO WIN AT THE HIGHER LEVEL AS RV DID HAS MORE TO DO WITH THEIR FUNDAMENTAL FLAWS AS FIGHTERS THAN THEIR POWER NOT TRANSLATING AT SAID LEVEL(RV WAS THE GREATER FIGHTER). GEORGE FOREMAN AND SONNY LISTON WERE ALSO GREATER FIGHTERS THAN EARNIE SHAVERS, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY HIT HARDER, DOES IT? WATCH FILMS OF HART AND MUGABI THEN WATCH VALDEZ AND TELL ME WHO YOU THINK CARRIES MORE POWER.

To deny that a powerful man like Rodrigo landing his best shot on Monzon in Carlos' last bout (when other great chins like Cobb and Fullmer were cracking like aging pottery) and having Monzon survive that moment to win the fight is proof of a granite jaw is simply baffling to me. Maybe Greb or Langford or Ali or somebody could have stood up better to being slammed by a softball bat, but including Monzon in the Hall of Fame for punch-taking doesn't lessen that august group one whit. PeteLeo

NO, BUT PUTTING HIM IN THE TOP 10(LET ALONE TOP 5 AS THE WRITER DID) IS INDEFENSIBLE IF YOU LOOK AT BOXING HISTORY. I'VE ALREADY LISTED JUST A SMALL SAMPLING OF THE NAMES YOU CAN PLACE ABOVE MONZON; GUYS WHO TOOK THEIR P4P EQUIVALENT OF THE VALDEZ POWER SHOT ON MONZON AGAIN AND AGAIN OVER THE COURSE OF 10, 15 AND SOMETIMES 25 ROUND FIGHTS. LOOK UP BAT NELSON. LOOK UP ALI. LOOK UP CHUVALO. LOOK UP LANGFORD. AND ON AND ON...

[Surf-Bat]

Paulie W
"The 'right names' thing is my problem here because it is indicative of the way in which some people approach these lists, as if it is an objective rather than a subjective process. Chins are a particular problem because a record can show a man was never knocked out or even down but that may be because he rarely got hit clean. Another fighter who visited the canvas often, who was perhaps even stopped more than once, might in fact have had a better chin but perhaps he fought in a more aggressive style, perhaps even recklessly or off balance."

I TRY TO KEEP IT AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE. FOR EXAMPLE, A FADED ALI- HIS DEFENSIVE SKILLS NEARLY GONE- TAKING REPEATED POWERSHOTS OVER 15 ROUNDS BY EARNIE SHAVERS OR BAT NELSON TAKING JOE GAN'S AND AURELIO HERRERA'S BOMBS FOR OVER 20 ROUNDS SHOULD PUT THEM IN HIGHER STANDING ON ANY SANE LIST THAN CARLOS MONZON TAKING THE OCCASIONAL JOLT(HIS BOXING SKILL USUALLY KEPT HIM FROM TAKING THEM IN SUCCESSION) FROM A VALDEZ OR A BRISCOE.

Judging a chin on the 'record' or on the power-punchers a man fought is only part of the story: watching the fights or reading detailed accounts gives a clearer picture.

INDEED. THIS IS SOMETHING I TOO HAVE DONE UNTIL MY EYES HAVE NEARLY FALLEN OUT. THAT IS WHY I SPEAK CONFIDENTLY ABOUT SUCH PAST CHIN-CHAMPS AS BAT NELSON, SAM LANGFORD, AD WOLGAST, ETC.


I watch Monzon and I see an iron-chinned fighter;

ME TOO. SO WAS GREB, BUT I WOULDN'T PLACE HIM IN THE TOP 10 EITHER FOR REASONS I'VE DISCUSSED IN OTHER THREADS.

he did get hit by Briscoe and Valdez and Tonna and many other top level fighters and he took it and fought back hard.

NO ARGUEMENT

He wasnt hanging his chin out like Tex Cobb but then neither did Hagler. I probably wouldnt have put him in a top 10 myself but he belongs in this conversation IMO.

A CONVERSATION ABOUT GREAT CHINS, YES. A CONVERSATION ABOUT "TOP 10" CHINS, NO. NOT WHEN ONE DOES AS YOU SUGGEST AND LOOK BACK AT OLD FIGHTS AND READ DETAILED ACCOUNTS.

Nobody in the initial list didnt belong in the conversation: he hadnt put Floyd Mayweather in there, for example. Here's another 10 fighters who we can throw into the mix based on record:

Panama Al Brown
Nel Tarleton
Duilio Loi
Oliver McCall
Eder Jofre
Gorilla Jones
Jack Britton
Mike Gibbons
Salvador Sanchez
Marcel Cerdan

INTERESTING LIST, THOUGH I'M NOT SURE THAT MIKE GIBBONS OR JACK BRITTON FOUGHT THE POWER PUNCHERS(OR GOT HIT SOLIDLY ENOUGH) THROUGHOUT THEIR CAREERS TO MAKE MY OWN PERSONAL LIST. YOU CAN'T HURT WHAT YOU CAN'T HIT AND GIBBONS AND BRITTON WERE AS SLICK AS WHALE S**T ON AN ICE FLOE.

[Paulie W]

Surf, I'm not going to belabour this any more because both of us are repeating ourselves now. You think it's insane to put Monzon in a top 10 list: I get it. Guess what I dont think it's insane and dont think the inclusion of Monzon in a top 10 signifies that an individual knows nothing of boxing history for all the reasons I've pointed out.

I will add something though. I've been defending a position here from the outset rather than a particular list: that lots of fighters, Monzon included, can reasonably be part of this conversation and, once we have established certain general criteria, who we choose as part of a top 10 is in large part a subjective act. You, however, are still progressing under a belief that there is even within these criteria a 'right' list and some people dont belong on it. Good luck to you...

[hawk5ins]

Here's my benchmark for Absurdity:

If you include Howard Davis Jr, in the top 10 of either a Greatest Chins or Greatest Punchers list.....You are out of your gord and have opened yourself for criticism and ridicule.

Monzon had a great chin and belongs in the discussion. Order and SPECIFIC Top 10's are as you said, subjective.

Valdez, was one helluva puncher. His inclusion in a top 100 Punchers list, is on the mark, as he deserves to be in the discussion. Top 10 or 20? I'd say no. Top 30? I probably wouldn't. But top 50 does not seem so far fetched.

Hawk

[Surf-Bat]

[QUOTE=Paulie W]Surf, I'm not going to belabour this any more because both of us are repeating ourselves now. You think it's insane to put Monzon in a top 10 list: I get it. Guess what I dont think it's insane and dont think the inclusion of Monzon in a top 10 signifies that an individual knows nothing of boxing history for all the reasons I've pointed out.

I will add something though. I've been defending a position here from the outset rather than a particular list: that lots of fighters, Monzon included, can reasonably be part of this conversation

THIS CONVERSATION IS ABOUT THIS LIST, WHICH IS 'TOP 10 GREATEST CHINS'. AS SUCH I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU THAT MONZON CAN 'REASONABLY' BE PART OF THE CONVO. A CONVERSATION ABOUT GREAT CHINS? SURE. BUT NOT TOP 10. NOT IF YOU'VE STUDIED YOUR HISTORY.

and, once we have established certain general criteria, who we choose as part of a top 10 is in large part a subjective act.

SURE, BUT YOU MIGHT WANNA CONSIDER BACKING IT UP WITH STRONG POINTS AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR OPINIONS. WHEN YOU DON'T DO IT AND COME ON HERE AND POST YOUR VIEW, GUESS WHAT? YOU GET CHALLENGED. IT HAPPENS TO ME. IT HAPPENS TO YOU, IT HAPPENS TO MR. HOUSTON.


You, however, are still progressing under a belief that there is even within these criteria a 'right' list and some people dont belong on it.

NOT A 'RIGHT' LIST, JUST A MORE SANE LIST WITH MORE DEFENSIBLE STANCES. MONZON ON THIS LIST AND NOT ALI OR BAT NELSON IS NOT A DEFENSIBLE STANCE, ESPECIALLY WHEN ALL ONE HAS TO BACK IT UP IS 'HE TOOK IT FROM BRISCOE AND VALDEZ'. SHALL WE LIST WHO ALI AND NELSON TOOK IT FROM? CUZ I GUARANTEE YOU IT'S MORE IMPRESSIVE AND THUS, A MORE DEFENSIBLE STANCE WHEN DEBATING THIS LIST.

Good luck to you...

AND YOU AS WELL

[hawk5ins]

Monzon's "Proof of Chin" goes beyond just saying he took it from Briscoe and Valdez (twice each).

Those pointing to the value of his chin are NOT limiting it simply to TWO examples.

YOU may be. But others are not.

Hawk

[Surf-Bat]

Monzon's "Proof of Chin" goes beyond just saying he took it from Briscoe and Valdez (twice each).

Those pointing to the value of his chin are NOT limiting it simply to TWO examples.

YOU may be. But others are not.

Hawk

I am well rebuked Point taken. I shall be more thorough in my responses from here on.

This list may indeed be "subjective" but there has to be a good basis for certain points of view. Your take on Armstrong/Duran is a perfect example. Someone posts that Hank would KO Roberto. Could this happen? Well, I guess so. Anything CAN happen, right? Does the historical evidence we have support such a conclusion? No. You yourself pointed out the Ambers example and that HA never knocked out a big-name lightweight(sans Jenkins). So why would he KO the man who was possibly the greatest lightweight of them all, right?

Same thing about when we debated about whether or not Monzon had a chance to beat SRR. Could Robby beat him 10 of 10 fights, even KO him? Yes. Is it likely? No. Why? As I pointed out clearly(and you concurred), SRR had major trouble with just about every middleweight he ever faced, good or great, so why not Monzon- possibly the greatest of them all? The historical evidence we had supported Monzon as more than having a chance to beat Ray.

I approached this list the same way. Could Monzon have the sturdiest chin in boxing history? Maybe, but we can never know because he was never tested as severely as several other fighters I've named(Ali, Nelson, etc). He may very well have a better beard. But is it prudent to place him above those who survived a much sterner litmus test? Doesn't that do Ali, Chavez, Langford, Nelson, Cobb, etc. a disservice(from a historical standpoint)?

Monzon fought hard punchers and accurate boxers. His chin stood up and he deserves mention as one of the "Iron Men" of the sport, no doubt. I just felt that having him in the top 5-10 was an overstatement(among other problems I had with the list) BASED ON HISTORICAL EVIDENCE.

Anyway, I'll let this rest now.

[PeteLeo]

Singletary, Geraldo, & McCracken = Briscoe? Nope. (Jean Mateo knocked out Marcos in the first round -- and then was iced in two by Gratien Tonna. Remember them?) Tommy moved from the jr. middles to the middles with the Hagler fight, and he left that class after being destroyed by Barkley.

Six pounds doesn't make a difference? Tell that to Carlos Zarate after the Gomez fight. Can we know how much of his fight Duran left in the steam room or in the toilet bowl to get down to 154? Especially since he thereafter beat Hearns-conqueror Barkley.

Olajide was stopped only twice? Guess what? So was Howard Davis. I certainly wouldn't say Davis had a rock under his nose, would you? Both guys were fast and slick enough to get away from most opponents, but their fatal flaws included swiss cheese chins, which ultimately kept them from the titles they so longed to secure, unlike your proposed alternates Mike Weaver and Roger Mayweather. Michael O. was pretty much a yo-yo in boxing gloves (must run in the family, as his kid brother couldn't take a decent whack, either).

So, Monzon was cool enough to go thirty rounds with Valdez without getting caught with as many power shots as Mugabi landed on Hagler in eleven . . . and this reflects badly on Monzon how? Given Hearns' mediocre middleweight record, I sincerely doubt that he would have had a prayer in hell of beaing Monzon.

Hart and Mugabi simply didn't bring it when it counted. Neither guy ever KO'd a legitimate high class opponent, and they just don't belong in this topic. Sorry. If we've going by how they LOOKED in their showcase wins against trialhorses, we'll need to include other folks who started sensationally and petered out (Mac Foster, Jose Urtain, Johnny "the Mad" Baldwin, Roldan, Randall Yonker, Bernardo Mercado, Robin Blake, Chris Calvin, like that.)

The skinny of all of this is that Valdez was a power puncher who could also box and who proved his mettle against legitimate, worldclass opponents. Valdez got the chance and pulled the trigger against Monzon in the second round of their rematch. Monzon, got up, shook it off, and won the fight, the freaking ninety-ninth (or one hundreth -- I forget which) match of his career. Does Hagler get up from that shot in HIS hundreth bout? Maybe not. If that doesn't prove the worth of Monzon's chin, I give up. PeteLeo.

[Surf-Bat]

"Singletary, Geraldo, & McCracken = Briscoe? Nope."

No. All three were middleweights. Don't try and distort the issue. According to YOU Tommy's middleweight career started with Hagler. Not true(see above).


"Tommy moved from the jr. middles to the middles with the Hagler fight, and he left that class after being destroyed by Barkley."

Wrong again. He started on the middles years before that, as I've already stated above.


"Six pounds doesn't make a difference? Tell that to Carlos Zarate after the Gomez fight. "

Oh, I see. It was the little WEIGHT jump that spelled Zarate's doom. So if instead Wilfredo had moved down we would have had a different result I take it? I think not.


"Olajide was stopped only twice? Guess what? So was Howard Davis. I certainly wouldn't say Davis had a rock under his nose, would you? Both guys were fast and slick enough to get away from most opponents, but their fatal flaws included swiss cheese chins, which ultimately kept them from the titles they so longed to secure, unlike your proposed alternates Mike Weaver and Roger Mayweather. Michael O. was pretty much a yo-yo in boxing gloves (must run in the family, as his kid brother couldn't take a decent whack, either)."

Finished on his feet vs. powerpuncher Barkley. Finished on his feet vs. powerpuncher Hearns. Only KO'd once in his prime. Never heard the fatal 10 tolled over his supine frame. Still no evidence of what I would consider a "swiss cheese" chin. Iron chin? NO. Cheese? No also.


"Given Hearns' mediocre middleweight record, I sincerely doubt that he would have had a prayer in hell of beaing Monzon."

You're still stuck on the mistaken notion that Hearns was 3-2 vs. middleweights. This despite evidence I've given you that clearly shows that you're mistaken and that he fought(and beat) more middleweights than that. Your inability(or unwillingness) to take in this new info is not something I can help you with. You're defending a discredited position.


"Hart and Mugabi simply didn't bring it when it counted. Neither guy ever KO'd a legitimate high class opponent, and they just don't belong in this topic. Sorry. If we've going by how they LOOKED in their showcase wins against trialhorses, we'll need to include other folks who started sensationally and petered out (Mac Foster, Jose Urtain, Johnny "the Mad" Baldwin, Roldan, Randall Yonker, Bernardo Mercado, Robin Blake, Chris Calvin, like that.)"


Now you're just repeating yourself. This has already been addressed.


"The skinny of all of this is that Valdez was a power puncher who could also box and who proved his mettle against legitimate, worldclass opponents."

Already established and concurred. Why do you keep repeating this?


"Valdez got the chance and pulled the trigger against Monzon in the second round of their rematch. Monzon, got up, shook it off, and won the fight, the freaking ninety-ninth (or one hundreth -- I forget which) match of his career. "

Repeated and concurred for the freaking ninety-ninth(or one hundred- I forget which) time. No one has argued against this point.

"If that doesn't prove the worth of Monzon's chin, I give up". PeteLeo.

You're right Pete. I came into this debate to prove the worthlessness of Monzon's chin. I was fully determined to convince you of that fact. It's what I've been saying all along- that Carlos Monzon had a glass chin. I've obviously failed to sway you, despite numerous posts citing Carlos' mandibular shortcomings and historical evidence to back up my claims(his numerous KO losses, times floored, etc.).

You've made me see the light. Good catch.

And on that note....

[hawk5ins]

The WHEN of Hearns' fighting at Middle really has nothing to do with the QUALITY of who he fought, or more to the point KO'd At Middle.

Hearns' Middlweight Opposition, ALL fights.

Geraldo KO1
Singletary W10
McCracken-KO8
Sutherland W10
Hagler KO BY 3
Shuler KO1
Dewitt W12
Roldan KO4
Barkley KO By 3

This is Hearns Middlweight Career. Excluding The Hagler and Barkley fights that he lost, where are the CHINS that he KO'd that are comparable to Briscoe?

Geraldo's Chin was VERY suspect. Many early round exits on his ledger.
McCracken was McCracken, and Tommy labored in that one and didn't set any house on fire.

Shuler was a talented fighter and a helluva nice young man. But just WATCH his previous bout with Kinchen and it was CLEAR he did not have a world class chin.

Roldan. He seemed like a rugged guy. And he looked Pretty good agianst Fletcher on the Hagler Duran undercard. And agianst Hagler, he was very powerful in the early going.

But His chin in that bout I think remained open to question. Yes he got thumbed in the third, but the punch that dropped him in the third was not from a thumb and was a good but hardly great punch. ANd the finishing blow again was a solid but hardly spectacular punch.

Now between that fight and Hearn, he doesn't face any real puncher. He faces Kinchen, who never lands a punch on him as Roldan mauls him.

Any decently solid punch Hearns lands on Roldan, he goes down. Credit Hearns' punch or Roldan's chin? Combination of both?

Well to me, seeing him go down from MICHEAL NUNN's punch two fights later, took a bit of the "WOW" out of Tommy's ko of Roldan for me.

Again, nothing comparable to Briscoe.

IF Hearns had taken down Dewitt's chin, I might have been more inclined to think his power at 160 was carried up from 147.

Again Percentages here: 90% KO rate at 147. 50% KO rate at 154. 40% KO rate at 160. And at 160, not one KO over an excellent or great Chin.

Hawk

[Michael Frank]

I think again too much is being made of one fight: Valdez KOing Brisco. Personally, I think Hearns KOing Duran at 154 is far more impressive--Duran was a MUCH better fighter than Brisco and also had a top-flite, rock-like chin. Personally, based on this new notion of "just one fight proves a boxer's punch but not the other's chin," I think Hearns at 160 KOs Brisco. Hey, who can prove different? And now Michael Nunn is talked of as if he were garbage, when in my mind he had a helluva chance to beat Monzon himself. Whereas now Brisco is God-like . . . I don't get it at all, and it's quite inconsistent.

Hearns hasn't a prayer of beating Monzon at 160? Well, he'd be beating him to the punch all night and is far faster than all 100 or however many of Monzon's opponents there were. Carlos might KO him quick, perhaps, you say? Well, how just many guys did Carlos KO quick in title defenses, and who were they? The 'great and powerful' Benvenuti in their #2???

Hagler might not get up from the punch that floored Monzon? Oh my God. How about Hagler never goes down from it in the first place--as he never did in his entire career officially? Monzon may have appeared to have a similar-quality chin to Hagler's, but Hagler didn't even back up when hit (much less get hurt). And Hagler got hit much more often.

"Mugabi simply didn't bring it when it counted"-- well, I counted, and he was undefeated with virtually all KOs until meeting Hagler, giving a very credible performance there, too. I wonder how Monzon would have taken Mugabi's shots. Mugabi was never the same after Hagler, but until then he was the goods.

It seems Monzon is so beloved/revered by some here that the smallest question about him is answered with great defensiveness. Yet, I watched his fights and saw a guy with very ordinary albeit professional skills--nothing really stood out for a champion other than his height for a 160 man-- who put it all together to get past (not destroy) what were fairly ordinary--and none great--"top contenders." No superhuman strength in him, as Rocky 111 always maintained. No phenomenal KO power-- most challengers made it to the late rounds. No speed. No great chin to be observed becaused it just wasn't cracked very often. Maybe he had one, but simply defeating many opponents does not translate, ipso facto, into "must therefore have a great chin." We SAW the many raps to Ali's noggin in the 1970s; in that same period, how many times did we see the "great" Carlos nailed? I think Carlos won due to having a champion's heart: making the most of what he had and doing everything he could to win.

I know, I know, we've been through this before.

[hawk5ins]

Or as a fighter personally.

His power, other than catching Kalambay cold, what is the evidence of it?

I look how anemic his power was agianst Welterweight Marlon Starling.....ugh.

So yes, his koing Roldan, did INDEED take some luster off of Hearns doing likewise. For me.

All do respect, but the notion of Micheal Nunn beating Carlos Monzon, is one of the more humorous things I've heard in weeks.

Intentional or not, I found it hysterical.

My adoration for Tommy Hearns is WELL documented on this site. Just Ask Rocky111.

But the Notion of Hearns Koing Briscoe, BENNIE BRISCOE, when Hearns's power at 160 was, well he ko'd 40% of his foes at that weight. Heck, if he could have at least budged Doug Dewitt, I'd entertain that thought. Suffice to say, Hearns Koing Briscoe.....Aint happening.

Bennie Briscoe at Middle and Duran and Jr. Middle......or Middle.

I Rate Roberto Duran as the Second Greatest Fighter of ALL TIME, pound for pound Behind ONLY Sugar Ray Robinson. But At Middleweight, Roberto Duran was NOT superior to Bennie Briscoe.

Nunn beating Monzon, Hearns Koing Briscoe and Duran being superior at 160 to Bad Bennie.

I'm just going to leave it at that without further comment. Other than, I think Rocky111 might adopt me now.

Hawk