George Foreman vs Jimmy Young

[10-8]

This recurring theme that Ellis, Machen, Folley and any decent boxer would beat Foreman is flawed. Ali never 'outboxed' Foreman. He out-gutted and outsmarted him using tactics that would have spelled immediate doom for just about any other heavyweight.

If a peak Foreman was so easy to beat for any skilled boxer, Ali wouldn't have had to piss blood and take some of the most helacious body shots of his career to get that win.

Machen folded like a deck of cards againt Johansson, ditto for Ellis against Shavers but it's a given that these guys both defeat Foreman?

Huh?

[Michael Frank]

This recurring theme that Ellis, Machen, Folley and any decent boxer would beat Foreman is flawed. Ali never 'outboxed' Foreman. He out-gutted and outsmarted him using tactics that would have spelled immediate doom for just about any other heavyweight.

If a peak Foreman was so easy to beat for any skilled boxer, Ali wouldn't have had to piss blood and take some of the most helacious body shots of his career to get that win.

Machen folded like a deck of cards againt Johansson, ditto for Ellis against Shavers but it's a given that these guys both defeat Foreman?

Huh?

Boy, do I second this, 10-8.

Foreman of 1973-74 eats Folley, Machen, and Ellis for lunch. I doubt seriously the three combined take him 10 rounds. Three brutal KOs for George. I don't like Holmes's chances with George, either. George was a helluva lot more dangerous than Shavers, and with a much better beard.

Ali went to war with Foreman, he did not "outbox" him except in those few instances when there was boxing in that match. It was a fight.

[hawk5ins]

I'm not entirely certain you answered my two questions, although there was a partial response in the second one.

Ron Lyle, was a Good puncher, but Do you honestly beleive he takes that Frazier from Kingston out of there? Other than the rather weaked chinned Shavers, who has Lyle taken out of there? Was Frazier SO Bad off in the Foreman bout, that you don't necessarily credit George for taking him out, but rather view it as Any decent to very good Heavy could have beaten Joe that night?

To me that seems like a complete discredit to both Foreman and Frazier.

Did George Casually walk Norton down or did he do so with purpose? I am almost taking your response here as the Foreman from the Lyle bout actually was better served to have faced Ron than the Foreman from the Frazier and Norton bouts. Whihc to me seems.....wrong. But it also implies that you think there was indeed a difference between the two Foreman's.

Agian, I'm not saying Foreman from the Lyle bout was NOT IN HIS PRIME anymore. Foreman's prime went from probably Frazier to Young. However, WITHIN that Prime, there were bouts in whihc he was superior from a physical and mental standpoint and in the case of the Lyle bout, from a TIMING and RUSTINESS, standpoint.

You DON'T simply walk into the ring after nearly 15 months off, coming off a big loss, agianst a fighter who has been active, is coming off a big win and who possesses a very good punch, and there not be any negative affects to your game.

IMO Foreman from the Frazier or Lyle fight, finishes off Ron in Round 2. I would envision what Shavers nearly did to Ronny in the second round in their bout, whihc INDEED would have been a KO, had the bell not saved him.

No reason from what I've seen, to think that Foreman, from those earlier fights, with Zero rust on him, with his timing under his belt, could not or would not duplicate what Shavers nearly did and then finish the job as well.

And I take Norton over Lyle (see that self titled thread in the fantasy section) and the Frazier from Jamaica, is NOT going to get blitzed by Lyle, so I have no reason not to think, that he would not eventually wear down Ronny and stop him in the later rounds. (In his prime, I take Frazier to stop Lyle by round 5.).

Side note: I think BOTH Sonny Liston and Foreman have great chins. But let's remember that Marty Marshall ALSO decked Sonny Liston. If you hold Lyle agianst Foreman, than surely, Marshall needs to be held agianst Liston.

Hawk

[Surf-Bat]

Whoo-boy....this is what sux about being a West-Coaster! Y'all have a 2-3 hour time advantage to blitz the board with posts before I even wake up.

I will address each one later. Gotta run to work and feed the drunks(yup, I'm a bartender. Not a bad job for a boxing fan huh?).

Mas Tarde'

SB

[Surf-Bat]

I'LL ADDRESS ONE AND THEN I GOTTA GO.

HE Grant] "First off chin ... he took the bombs of Tommy Morison, Shannon Briggs, Loe Savarese, Michael Moorer and a pounding by Evander Holyfield and never went down in his forties"

TWO DIFFERENT FOREMANS. HE WAS A 250-PLUS POUND SHOCK ABSORBER IN HIS SECOND CAREER. YOU CAN'T COMBINE THE TWO. DIFFERENT GUYS.

...he took a few solid shots from Frazier and Norton the first time around and did not blink ...

I SAW HIM TAKE NOTHING OF MAJOR CONSEQUENCE. NOTHING THAT MADE ME GO 'WHOA!'

Take out Williams and what major hitters did Liston beat ?

MIKE DEJOHN, WHO ALONG WITH WILLIAMS WERE TWO OF THE HARDEST PUNCHERS OF THE ERA.

"but even at forty , granted old, Leotis Martin iced him, a much smaller man than Lyle"

MAN, YOU'LL TAKE ANYTHING YOU CAN GET, WON'T YOU?

...Lyle was totally pumped for Foreman

AS WAS FOREMAN FOR LYLE

"and took him on rusty,"

MY POSITION ON HIS BEING 'RUSTY' IS ALREADY ON THE BOOKS.

"underconfident"

LOOKED PRETTY CONFIDENT TO ME, ESPECIALLY DURING THE STAREDOWN. WHEN THE BELL RANG HE CAME FORWARD AND SHORTLY AFTER HE AND LYLE STARTED TRADING BLOWS. WHERE'S THIS UNDERCONFIDENCE YOU SPEAK OF?

"and not ready .."

LOOKED READY TO ME. NOT AN OUNCE OF FAT ON HIM. SPEED(WHAT LITTLE HE HAD TO BEGIN WITH) AND POWER INTACT.

"and George still flattened him ..."

AND GOT BOUNCED AROUND AND MUSCLED A BIT HIMSELF. LIKE I SAID, I WOULDN'T MAKE LYLE A HUGE UNDERDOG IN A REMATCH.

Handspeed: I simply disagre with you...he landed on Frazier when Ali said Joe was very hard to hit ..

SO YOU THINK THE PRIME, TRAINED TO THE LETTER FRAZIER THAT ALI FOUGHT IS THE SAME FIGHTER AS THE DOUGHY, 10 LBS OVERWEIGHT AND LARGELY INACTIVE FIGHTER THAT GF FACED??

he landed on Norton , again early, sohow slow was he landing early and hard on world class fighters? If he was so slow, how was he able to land so hard and early on these guys ? Kep in mind I am talking about pre-exile George .. rewatch Frazier 1

SO NORTON AND A TUBBY FRAZIER ARE DEFENSIVE WIZARDS NOW? HE LANDED HARD AND EARLY ON THESE GUYS BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT HARD TO HIT! BONAVENA LANDED HARD AND EARLY ON FRAZIER TOO. A PRIME FRAZIER. WAS OSCAR FAST?

.. he was not slow by any means ...

THEN I GUESS I'M JUST IMAGINING THINGS WHEN WATCHING THE FILMS. LOOKS SLOW TO ME AND TO MOST PEOPLE I'VE SPOKEN TO ABOUT HIM.

You are obviously too influenced by Ali's pre-Foreman fight hypes aboit the Mummy and his punches ...

NO, I AM INFLUENCED BY WHAT I SEE WITH MY OWN EYES. 'MUMMY' WAS A PERFECTLY ACCURATE DESCRIPTION FOR A SLOW, PLODDING FIGHTER WHO LOOPS HIS PUNCHES AND HAS ABOUT AS MUCH HEAD MOVEMENT AS STEPHEN HAWKING.

what you leave out is that Ali himself says his victory over Foreman was the greatest of his career and that he never gave George a rematch ... wonder why ... I'm sure you have some great reasons though ...

HOW ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE DESTROYED FOREMAN? TOOK HIM APART BOTH PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY. I REMEMBER THE FIGHT AND I WAS SURPRISED WITH THE EASE IN WHICH ALI BEAT HIM(AND MADE HIM LOOK LIKE A FLOUNDERING AMATEUR IN THE PROCESS).

[Surf-Bat]

This recurring theme that Ellis, Machen, Folley and any decent boxer would beat Foreman is flawed. Ali never 'outboxed' Foreman. He out-gutted and outsmarted him using tactics that would have spelled immediate doom for just about any other heavyweight.

If a peak Foreman was so easy to beat for any skilled boxer, Ali wouldn't have had to piss blood and take some of the most helacious body shots of his career to get that win.

Machen folded like a deck of cards againt Johansson, ditto for Ellis against Shavers but it's a given that these guys both defeat Foreman?

Huh?

What slick boxers did Foreman destroy that would give you the impression that he could handle ANY slick boxer, let alone the triumverate mentioned? Foreman fought 2 boxers in his career and they both beat him. Foreman only "eats alive" guys who stand in front of him and don't hit back. Is that What these three are going to do? Foreman would be lucky to hit Machen with anything. And believe me, Eddie Machen was a good fighter who could exploit the horrible(nonexistent) defense of GF with some nasty counterpunching.

Ali fought the fight he fought because he got the message clearly in the Bonavena and Frazier fights that he was no longer the slickster of old who could dance circles around and potshot the big bangers. He also knew enough about Foreman to know that in order to beat him he would have to exploit George's lack of stamina, defense, etc.

Machen/Johansson? Hey, boxing has it's unexplainable moments, right? How does Eddie Machen go the distance with a feared banger like Liston then fold against Ingo? I don't have an answer. But are we taking the Machen of the Ingo fight vs. the Foreman of the Frazier fight? How about the Machen of the Liston fight vs. Foreman?

[Surf-Bat]

[QUOTE=Michael Frank]Boy, do I second this, 10-8.

Foreman of 1973-74 eats Folley, Machen, and Ellis for lunch. I doubt seriously the three combined take him 10 rounds. Three brutal KOs for George.

BASED UPON WHAT? WHAT BOXERS WITH EVEN A MODICUM OF THE MOBILITY OF THESE THREE DID FOREMAN BRUTALLY KO? HIS REP IS BASED ON BEATING 2 FIGHTERS WHO NEVER MOUNTED ANY OFFENSE WHATSOEVER(fRAZIER, nORTON). ONE WAS A STATIONARY FIGHTER WHO WASN'T THROWING BACK AND THE OTHER WAS DOING A FLOYD PATTERSON.

WHEN FIGHTERS BOXED gf OR HIT BACK HE WAS GIVEN LOADS OF TROUBLE(PERALTA, LYLE, ALI, YOUNG).

(PARDON THE CAPS)

[Michael Frank]

[QUOTE=Surf-Bat][QUOTE=Michael Frank]Boy, do I second this, 10-8.

Foreman of 1973-74 eats Folley, Machen, and Ellis for lunch. I doubt seriously the three combined take him 10 rounds. Three brutal KOs for George.

BASED UPON WHAT? WHAT BOXERS WITH EVEN A MODICUM OF THE MOBILITY OF THESE THREE DID FOREMAN BRUTALLY KO? HIS REP IS BASED ON BEATING 2 FIGHTERS WHO NEVER MOUNTED ANY OFFENSE WHATSOEVER(fRAZIER, nORTON). ONE WAS A STATIONARY FIGHTER WHO WASN'T THROWING BACK AND THE OTHER WAS DOING A FLOYD PATTERSON.

WHEN FIGHTERS BOXED gf OR HIT BACK HE WAS GIVEN LOADS OF TROUBLE(PERALTA, LYLE, ALI, YOUNG).

(PARDON THE CAPS)

In his first career, he beat EVERYYONE who hit back or moved except Ali and Young. And the Young fight is debatable to many.

Receiving "trouble" from Peralta and Lyle isn't the same as losing to them.

Putting the shoe on the other foot, whom did Machen, Folley, or Ellis ever beat who was anywhere close to the same stratosphere as Foreman?

[Surf-Bat]

[QUOTE=Michael Frank][QUOTE=Surf-Bat]

Boy, do I second this, 10-8.

Foreman of 1973-74 eats Folley, Machen, and Ellis for lunch. I doubt seriously the three combined take him 10 rounds. Three brutal KOs for George.

[B]
In his first career, he beat EVERYYONE who hit back or moved except Ali and Young. And the Young fight is debatable to many.

Receiving "trouble" from Peralta and Lyle isn't the same as losing to them.

Putting the shoe on the other foot, whom did Machen, Folley, or Ellis ever beat who was anywhere close to the same stratosphere as Foreman?

You still never answered the question. Specifically, who hit him back or tested him prior to Ali? He fought very few live bodies on the way up and was never severely tested until he got knocked out by Ali. Show me a single fight prior to Ali in which GF was tested (sans Peralta, a light heavyweight who gave us the first signs of GF's lack of stamina and difficulty in dealing with those who hit back).

And I don't see the Young fight as debatable. It merely underscored GF's weaknesses. Wonder what would have happened had Young had a bit more punching power?

HAWK- don't worry, buddy. I'm working my way up to answering your post.

[Surf-Bat]

Look at Sonny Liston for example. On his way up he was tested by big punchers(Williams, DeJohn) and slick boxers(Machen, Folley) and beat them all. Who tested Foreman on his way up(or when he became champ)? Nobody.

[Surf-Bat]

hawk5ins: "Ron Lyle, was a Good puncher, but Do you honestly beleive he takes that Frazier from Kingston out of there?"

YES.

"Was Frazier SO Bad off in the Foreman bout, that you don't necessarily credit George for taking him out, but rather view it as Any decent to very good Heavy could have beaten Joe that night?"

HE LOOKED AWFUL IN THE RING(10 LBS OVER HIS BEST), AWFUL IN THE GYM(FROM REPORTS WAS GETTING CLOBBERED IN SPARRING), HAD BEEN LARGELY INACTIVE, WITH ONLY 2 BOUTS IN BETWEEN FIGHTING ALI AND GF(AND WHEN ACTIVE WENT UP AGAINST INFERIOR OPPOSITION[DANIELS, STANDER]). HE'D BEEN LIVING THE HIGH LIFE IN HIS POST-ALI YEARS AND GOT SOFT. HE WAS ALSO THE VETERAN OF MANY HARD BATTLES AND HIS GIVE AND TAKE STYLE WAS NOT ONE THAT GIVES A FIGHTER A LONG SHELF-LIFE. YES, HE WAS READY TO BE TAKEN, ESPECIALLY VS A BIG HITTER LIKE GF.

CREDIT IS GIVEN TO GF BASED UPON THE FACT THAT HE BLITZED JF QUICKLY ENOUGH SO THAT FRAZIER NEVER HAD A CHANCE TO MOUNT ANY OFFENSE. WOULD YOU SAY THAT FOREMAN "TOOK THE MEASURE" OF JOE FRAZIER? I WOULDN'T....

Did George Casually walk Norton down or did he do so with purpose? I am almost taking your response here as the Foreman from the Lyle bout actually was better served to have faced Ron than the Foreman from the Frazier and Norton bouts. Whihc to me seems.....wrong. But it also implies that you think there was indeed a difference between the two Foreman's.

I WAS GIVING YOU THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT IN REGARDS TO GF'S SUPPOSED RUSTINESS BEING A FACTOR.

Agian, I'm not saying Foreman from the Lyle bout was NOT IN HIS PRIME anymore. Foreman's prime went from probably Frazier to Young. However, WITHIN that Prime, there were bouts in whihc he was superior from a physical and mental standpoint and in the case of the Lyle bout, from a TIMING and RUSTINESS, standpoint.

RUSTINESS WAS A SMALL FACTOR, IMO. LIKE I SAID, GF'S STYLE WASN'T ONE THAT DEPENDED SO MUCH ON TIMING. OR SPEED. OR ACCURACY. OR DEFENSE. OR ANYTHING THAT RING RUST USUALLY TAKES IT'S TOLL ON. FOREMAN RELIED UPON POWER AND STRENGTH. PERIOD. BOTH LOOKED INTACT TO ME IN THE LYLE FIGHT.



You DON'T simply walk into the ring after nearly 15 months off, coming off a big loss, agianst a fighter who has been active, is coming off a big win and who possesses a very good punch, and there not be any negative affects to your game.

FAIR ENOUGH. BUT I STILL DIDN'T SEE MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE IN FOREMAN THAT WOULD MAKE ME BELIEVE THAT HE WOULD HAVE PUT ON A DIFFERENT SHOW IN THERE HAD HE BEEN ACTIVE OVER THAT 15 MONTHS. HE WAS GEORGE IN THAT FIGHT- SLOW, PLODDING, LOOPING SHOTS, POWER, STRENGTH....THE FOREMAN PACKAGE.

IMO Foreman from the Frazier or Lyle fight, finishes off Ron in Round 2.

I DISAGREE

And I take Norton over Lyle (see that self titled thread in the fantasy section) and the Frazier from Jamaica, is NOT going to get blitzed by Lyle, so I have no reason not to think, that he would not eventually wear down Ronny and stop him in the later rounds. (In his prime, I take Frazier to stop Lyle by round 5.).

DITTO(disagree)

Side note: I think BOTH Sonny Liston and Foreman have great chins.

FOREMAN CIRCA 1969-1977 HAS A GREAT CHIN BASED UPON WHAT? WHO SEVERELY TESTED IT? ONLY LYLE. AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENED. GF BOUNCING AND REELING ALL OVER THE PLACE.

But let's remember that Marty Marshall ALSO decked Sonny Liston. If you hold Lyle agianst Foreman, than surely, Marshall needs to be held agianst Liston.

FROM WHAT I'VE READ ABOUT THAT KNOCKDOWN IT WAS NOTHING MORE THAN A CASE OF A YOUNG, OVERZEALOUS LISTON LUNGING AT MM, WHO SIDESTEPPED AND CLIPPED HIM OFF BALANCE. SONNY WAS COMPLETELY UNHURT, UNBUCKLED AND GOT UP AND CONTINUED. FOREMAN WAS LEGITIMATELY HURT, STAGGERED AND FLOORED BY LYLE SEVERAL TIMES. YOU CAN'T COMPARE THE TWO. THIS FIGHT(VS. LYLE) IS THE FIRST IN WHICH HIS BEARD WAS SEVERELY TESTED AND IT RAISED QUESTIONS.

SONNY'S CHIN WAS TESTED MUCH MORE SEVERELY ON HIS WAY UP. NO COMPARISON AT ALL.

[Surf-Bat]

By the way, you never answered my question:

"Now a question for you: What do you feel George could have done differently had he not been "rusty"? Would he have been faster? Sharper? Harder-hitting? Stronger chinned? Better defensively?"

[HE Grant]

Yes to all five ...

[hawk5ins]

Hawk

[Phillyfan]

Whoo-boy....this is what sux about being a West-Coaster! Y'all have a 2-3 hour time advantage to blitz the board with posts before I even wake up.

I will address each one later. Gotta run to work and feed the drunks(yup, I'm a bartender. Not a bad job for a boxing fan huh?).

Mas Tarde'

SB

surf-bat,
fires and a heat wave in your area? stay safe.

[Surf-Bat]

surf-bat,
fires and a heat wave in your area? stay safe.

Thanks Philly. Luckily they are at a safe distance for the time being. Let's hope it stays that way.

The heat is brutal, though. Euthanasias~galore at the veterinary clinic, no doubt.

[HE Grant]

West Coast ? L.A. ? MY wife is dying to get us to move out there ...she has family, I've lived there before and am seriously considering it but the horrible economy has me cautious about any sudden moves ... whatever, I'd love to be surfing ...

[Surf-Bat]

West Coast ? L.A. ? MY wife is dying to get us to move out there ...she has family, I've lived there before and am seriously considering it but the horrible economy has me cautious about any sudden moves ... whatever, I'd love to be surfing ...

You can actually find pretty good deals on craigslist for places out here. Just shop around a bit.

And you have someone to surf with as well.

Can't beat that