George Foreman vs Jimmy Young

[rocky111]

25 guys I was with thought Young beat Norton. It wasnt the Ali fight. I think Young beat Ali. He didnt cream him, but Ali wasnt there for the fight and Young didnt let him do nothing at all. Granted it wasnt the best Ali. But YOung had a short prime and he knew how to box. Period. He stops guys from doing what they wanted. Norton, Lyle, Ali, Foreman, and others all would say Jimmy was a excellent boxer Im sure of that.
Young had personal problems (no breaks at all) and lost his prime, but he could box. Ali in his prime would have had a very bad night with JImmy Young. Good boxer, good chin, cagy, a thinking fighter. Tuff night for Ali who wouldnt have any sucker in there.
Its just that there are so few boxing masters in there today that many dont know what they are seeing. Asking a Benton or a Giardello what he thought of Young would mean alot to me.
Larry Holmes and JImmy YOung. I Like Young. I thought he beat Norton and I thought Norton beat Holmes so its not like JImmy is out of any fight with Larry Holmes both being at their best.
Soft minded? Easily led? Bad choices? That was Jimmy Young. But he was a very fine boxer.

[Michael Frank]

Hey Philly, sorry for the confusion. I never meant that you brought up Holyfield vs Jimmy. I just chose to bring up Holyfield myself.

By the way, I truly liked Jimmy Young A LOT. Didn't really feel the decisions he complained about were 'obviously' wrong (Ali and Norton), they were SO close. Later in life, I felt bad Jimmy didn't fight his heart out in such matches, like the way Holmes and Norton fought each other. I don't believe Jimmy ever put out such an effort in a fight. But I like the man very much and yes, he was in that class of top '70s heavyweights.

Can't agree with you that he beats a prime Foreman. All kudos to him for beating George when he did--I feel he deserved the decision but it wasn't easy--but I feel the George of 1973 wipes the floor with the best Jimmy. Just a guess.

To those here who feel it's wrong to say Holy or whoever beats Jimmy easily--that it's always a tough night with Young--I say, why is that? Young didn't hit hard enough to hurt the top heavies of his day (though he KO'd lesser guys, I know). Holding wouldn't work against a prime Ali, Holmes, Holyfield, or yes, even Leon Spinks. Or Page, Dokes, or Cooney later on (he lost easily to 2 of these 3). It's not like he's stronger than these guys anyway. And Jimmy's pitty-pat punches would be worthless, he'd have to throw hard ones.

Much as I hate to say it, Lyle and Shavers were both inconsistent fighters whom Quarry beat, and Young's style could be effective against such types. (By the way, Hagler04, didn't Young get stopped in 3 by Earnie Shavers once and draw with him the 2nd time?). Foreman, Ali, Holmes, Holy, and this ilk were quite a bit better, and more versatile, than Lyle and Shavers. I see all of them beating a prime Young.

But Young was a class act, and it's terrible he died at such an early age.

[Phillyfan]

Of course Jimmy tests a different set of skills than frazier and lyle, thats obvious. In a previous post you said "The Foreman who fought Young was deeply confused and no where near the same from a confidence level." What do you base that observation on? I say he was just as confident having destroyed his last 5 opponents. Now your last post talks about styles. So are you saying george was afraid of jimmys skills before the fight?

[Michael Frank]

Of course Jimmy tests a different set of skills than frazier and lyle, thats obvious. In a previous post you said "The Foreman who fought Young was deeply confused and no where near the same from a confidence level." What do you base that observation on? I say he was just as confident having destroyed his last 5 opponents. Now your last post talks about styles. So are you saying george was afraid of jimmys skills before the fight?

I never said that at all. That was someone else. But maybe you're not referring to me above?

[Phillyfan]

michael, I can't change anyones opinion. It is what it is, but in my opinion, Jimmy beat a prime foreman. Theres no evidence george was less of a fighter than he was before the Ali fight. Not after what he did to frazier and lyle. Gregorio Peralta uncovered a chink in georges armour. George tired into the late rounds. Ali was the first to take advantage of that and jimmy also took advantage of it. Because Jimmy did it after Ali is no reason to say he did it to a lesser fighter. No, jimmy didn't hit with the power of shavers, instead he out boxed his opponents. Once again, look at his record, except for shavers, he was not knocked out which says something when you look at the murderers row of fighters he faced. Thats why people say any night with jimmy was a tough night.

[Phillyfan]

I never said that at all. That was someone else. But maybe you're not referring to me above?

yes, I was replying to Hegrant, but you snuck in before I finished typing.

[HE Grant]

I base it on everything documented on Foreman by anyone who has studied his career. It's really not revolutionary observations. It's one thing to be a Young fan. It's another to simply deny the history of his opponents. If Young was as special as you claim, why did he turn to less than average folling his "robbery" loss to Norton?

[Phillyfan]

reread my previous posts, I'm too lazy to explain it all again.

[HE Grant]

No need. Already too boring ...

[KOJOE90]

To me Jimmy Young is right up there in the mix when talking about the Heavyweights of the 1970's, that's high praise on its own. Many often say with good reason that Jerry Quarry was the best modern Heavyweight never to win the Title, but to me Jimmy Young was as good as Quarry, maybe not as exciting to watch, but just as good with regards to ability.

Does anyone know if Jimmy Young had much of an amateur career? As a novice professional he was certainly thrown to the wolves early, Clay Hodges (top amateur) then Roy Williams! A few fights later Randy Neuman then Earnie Shavers!! This start may have finished many a fighter, but Jimmy Young seemed to learn from these defeats and become a better fighter. I understand he spent many rounds sparring Joe Frazier, an education in ring warfare if ever there was one. I am of the understanding that Young worked as a sparring partner for most of the top Heavyweights at some point. He even sparred with a peak Mike Tyson I understand (Bonecrusher fight I think) and that Tyson was very fond of Jimmy and always refered to him as "My Man".

His record is a real who's who of the 70's and early 80's the only two elite fighters he didn't meet were Quarry and Holmes. I read that Young was very impressed with Quarry and admited that Quarry may well have had the style to beat him, yet I am led to believe that for years Young begged Don King for a fight with Holmes, but alway got blanked.

I have heard several rumours about Jimmys career over the years many of which I take with a big pinch of salt. Like, that on the orders of Blinky he was to wear the cuffs against Norton. If this is true Young did a shocking job as many felt he won the fight. I also heard that after this fight Young was informed that he would never get another title shot but if he 'played the game' there would be many paydays ahead for him. Hence maybe his general physical state post Norton?

Ragardless of all this, when I think of Jimmy Young I think of a very smart, highly skilled fighter with an iron chin, great defence an underated body puncher who beat and competed with some of the greatest and most formidable Heavyweights who ever entered the ring.

Also I have heard from many people that outside of the ring Jimmy was one of the kindest and most gentle guys you could wish to meet and when he past away I for one felt gutted.

[Enswell]

sorry, not buying it. The foreman you describe would not have gotten off the canvas against ron lyle. Not confident after annhilating frazier? I'll leave it up to the board to decide.

If anything, Foreman was overconfident going into the Young fight. At least, that's the way I saw it at the time.

Young vs Foreman circa 1973? I wouldn't bet the farm, but I like Jimmy by decision.

[Phillyfan]

I base it on everything documented on Foreman by anyone who has studied his career. It's really not revolutionary observations. It's one thing to be a Young fan. It's another to simply deny the history of his opponents. If Young was as special as you claim, why did he turn to less than average folling his "robbery" loss to Norton?

from foremans own book"God in My Corner" page 22.
"Don wanted me to extend the fight to allow the networks time to run as many commercials as possible. I figured that I would eventually knock out Jimmy Young just as I had so many other opponents, so I could easily delay the inevitable for a few rounds. Not a problem"

yep, you're right, sounds like he was a quivering bowl of jello. no confidence here

page 23
"In the twelfth and final round,I believed I was ahead on points, but a knockout would garuntee me the victory.As I began to chasing him around the ring, I threw a wild punch off balance. He caught me at just the right time and knocked me down.Immediately I jumped back up, letting the judges know that I wasn't hurt. But Jimmy was allready ahead on 2 of the judges scorecards, and the knockdown sealed the outcome.
When the final bell rang, I was still confident I had won"


but I guess anyones whos studied foremans career would know his mental state better than george himself.

[10-8]

Philly, I was going to quote that section myself until I remembered that Foreman also claims he was drugged against Ali and deserved the verdict against Tommy Morrison. I take what George says with the proverbial grain of salt.

I will say that Gil Clancy had Foreman fighting more measured and more patient, and throwing straighter punches and I think the results speak for themselves against Dennis and Ledoux. I personally think Foreman's second fight against Frazier may have been the best Foreman we ever saw.

Now, against Young I think Foreman was a little too laid back and he gave Jimmy the space he needed to get established, figure George out and most of all build his confidence. Whether it was Foreman's concern with gassing out in the San Juan heat or just the more measured purposeful style Clancy wanted, I can't say but I'll guess a little of both.

Had Foreman cut off the ring and jumped on Young from the first round I think Jimmy has a tough time surviving to the mid rounds. Young wasn't the biggest puncher to get Foreman off of him and as great a shot as he took I still see Foreman winning by TKO.

Young was a hell of a fighter from the Ali through to the Norton fights. Jimmy's problem is he seldom put an exclamation point on a round which often left the viewer unsure as to who won the round. Jimmy didn't have the most pleasing style to watch and it was easy to overlook some of his subtleties.

I think he could have gotten the nod against Norton by stepping it up in the last 30 seconds of some of the close rounds (hell they were all close). Jimmy did time Norton beautifully in that fight stopping Kenny dead in his tracks with counterpunches better than I saw Ali or Holmes able to.

Young during that two year stint is hell for any of the heavyweights including Holmes. Young's laid back counterpunch style would have bothered Larry who would have had to fight as the aggressor which wasn't his optimum style. I'd pick Larry to outwork Jimmy but Young would give him some fits much as Michael Spinks later would.

[apollack]

I thought Foreman defeated Young. I thought Young only beat him if you score the fight amateur style. Young was basically in there to survive, grabbing incessantly and landing powder puff punches. The point off of Foreman for pushing Jimmy away when he grabbed on for dear life was ridiculous, and the ref revealed his bias when he never took a point off Young for holding. Foreman was mostly in control in that fight, and the only guy in there actually trying to fight. Sure he got tired, but when you try to fight and you hit hard, you will get tired. Sure, Jimmy came on towards the end, but you are going to have better condition when you don't throw much, throw light, and grab a lot.

[10-8]

Waldemar Schmidt scored it 118-111 Young which is ludicrous. If he gave Foreman a two point round for the 7th (which he should have) that means Jimmy won all of the other 11 rounds.

Foreman's bad guy/bully persona hurt him as the fans and Howard Cossell were clearly rooting for Young.

It was a very close fight. Had Foreman gotten the decision I'm sure there would have been griping but not to the point of being deemed a robbery.

It was very close. Certainly not worthy of Foreman retiring over.

[HE Grant]

Extactly my point. Foreman mentally melted down . The narrow decision loss was secondary to the root of the meltdown.

If you know Foreman's career you know he had three careers. Pro-debut to Ali, Lyle to Young and the comeback. His loss to Ali was so devastating to his confidence that he flirted with commiting suicide. He was lost and despite the big KO's of Lyle and Frazier there was always the George of Toronto, desperatly trying to regain what was lost but feeling like a phony and a fool, exposed in front of and being laughed at by all.

When he fell apart in Puerto Rico it was more mental that physical. As the fight moved on in the heat after he had Young out on his feet in the 7th and he could not catch him, George began to fall apart. Again I stress, he collasped in his dressing room after the fight and claimed he spoke with Jesus. It was extreme heat exhaustion. Sure Young did his thing and he deserves respect for it but it really was the case of one guy ready to blow and did.

Foreman's entire ten year odyssey followed by his comeback was all about the new George. It was a classic example of an old fighter making use of a seperate skill set, one that was underdeveloped his first time around. Why was the second George able to go a tough twelve against Holyfield at 42 taking a far worse pounding than a 28 year old one against Young and come out of it in much better shape? Because he had his act together mentally.

My point is that George Foreman has had very unique careers in the ring. Young easily beat the very powerful and hard hitting Ron Lyle and I'd say he does it ten out of ten times. I'd rate Young over Lyle as a 70's heavyweight. However I don't rate him close to Foreman. I may be wrong and I certainly agree that at any time Young is tough for him stylewise but I feel the pre-Ali Foreman beats Young.

[raylawpc]

I've never heard that Foreman flirted with committing suicide after the loss to Ali. Do you have a source for that? (I'm not claiming he didn't, but I'd never heard it and would like to read more about it.)

[10-8]

I've never heard that Foreman flirted with committing suicide after the loss to Ali. Do you have a source for that? (I'm not claiming he didn't, but I'd never heard it and would like to read more about it.)

Ditto for me Ray. That's the first I've heard of that as well.

[hawk5ins]

One day while racing up a hill in my Excalibur, I wondered how it would be to continue over the edge. 'If I die, then people will see the pain I'm in; then they's understand.' I wasn't suicidal, but that thought came with increasing frequency for several weeks.

Could simply be book talk, but it is there in his first Bio written in 95.

This is of course him talking about post Zaire.

Hawk

[raylawpc]

Thanks.

[10-8]

Sure that wasn't George talking about his first marriage?

[hawk5ins]

First wifes name was Excalibur?

Hawk

[brutu]

I saw that fight on youtube a while back.
In the first few rounds Jimmy Young was re-acting like one of those reporters
who are reporting outside just when the Hurricane is hitting,blowing across and down the street.

[rocky111]

Lets give Jimmy Young some credit for NOT ALLOWING Big George to do what he wanted to do, which was KO JImmy and drive him back with his jab until Jimmy just stopped moving. Jimmy boxed the perfect fight with what he had and it paid off. George melted down all right-Its called big arms, swinging hard, losing wind, and not getting where he wanted to go in the fight. It was close but Jimmy closed the show. The freakout for George was that he lost the fight................

[hawk5ins]

People will start talking.

"It was close but Jimmy closed the show."

I'm with Rocky.

Exactly how I recall the bout.

Hawk

[hawk5ins]

Comparing things in the Young Fight with BY GEORGE:

page 144

".......The Consummate finisher, I'd missed another chance to finish the job (referring to the 7th round). And unlike the first missed chance, this one didn't come agian. I felt drained and weak. My trying to knock him out became and exercise in futility. Sensing that, he fought more aggressively.

By the 11th round, I couldn't be sure anymore that I was ahead on points. In the 12th, I swung a desperate right uppercut. He countered with a wild shot. Because I was chasing him, it caught me wiht a kind of power he didn't otherwise have. It turned me around and dropped me to one knee. He was more surprised than I was. Up at the count of one, I immediately resumed my chase of him then sepnt the last nintey seconds hoping that one of my punches would take the decision out of the judges hands. At the final bell, I believed in my heart of hearts that I'd won the fight, yet knew with as much certainty that they'd already decided agiasnt me."

From God on My side (previously provided by Phillyfan):

page 23
"In the twelfth and final round,I believed I was ahead on points, but a knockout would garuntee me the victory.As I began to chasing him around the ring, I threw a wild punch off balance. He caught me at just the right time and knocked me down.Immediately I jumped back up, letting the judges know that I wasn't hurt. But Jimmy was allready ahead on 2 of the judges scorecards, and the knockdown sealed the outcome.
When the final bell rang, I was still confident I had won"

Hawk

[10-8]

Well God's On His Side Now!

Therefore ya gotta believe in version #2.

It's a sin to lie ya know.

[hawk5ins]

No religious debates.

Hawk

[Phillyfan]

I guess you could say george won the war. He's alive, in good health, filthy rich, in the HOF,and beloved by millions. You have to admit, someones on his side.

[apollack]

Giving decisions to guys like Jimmy Young who fight like that is why we have more horseshit boring fights. That was a slap in George's face and I think he thought if that's what they want to see, they can have it, and he walked away from the game. I feel bad for the man. He brought a lot of entertainment to the game with his crushing style, but wasn't appreciated. Fans pay to be entertained. Wasn't Foreman-Lyle one of the best fights ever? Which of Young's fights can we say that about? Bottom line is that the fans appreciated George in his comeback, which is why it lasted so much longer.