George Foreman vs Jimmy Young

[HE Grant]

I remember watching the fight live like it was yesterday and the fight was all about Foreman falling apart again. It was page one news for days. I am trying not to take anything away from Young who had skills and fought a smart fight. I'm just saying he was not the next coming of Gene Tunney. He was a cagey, defensive minded, safety first boxer with a good chin, good speed, inconsistant conditioning and little power. He had some big fights in the 70's and quickly vanished into obsecurity ... give the man the respect he deserves and let it go from there ... to compare him with Larry Holmes or Evander Holyfield or an in shape 1971 - 1975 Ali is a joke. He'd be pesty for all three but lose to all three. He was a good but not great fighter.

[Phillyfan]

... give the man the respect he deserves and let it go from there ... .

I thought the thread was finished, but here we go again. I am trying to give him the respect he deserves. I never said he was the be all end all of boxing or "the next comming of gene tunney" as you put it. He beat a prime foreman that night and no one can take that away from him. According to foreman himself, he was sure he won the fight and there was nothing mentally or physically wrong with him. But it seems other people posting on this thread think they are foreman experts and keep saying george was not in his right mind. I guess if you say it long enough, you think you might get others to believe it. Again, why is it a joke to compare him to larry or evander? Is it a joke to also compare him to norton, shavers, or lyle? He was a good boxer, with a good chin. Not a great punch but still had 11 KO's. On the flip side he was TKO'd only once early in his career by shavers. He might have lost decisions to holmes and holyfield, but to say it would be a joke is going a bit far and not giving him the respect he deserves. Remember, holyfield lost 111-117 to chris byrd. Byrd is one of the better boxers as opposed to sluggers of today.Young lost a narrow decision to ken norton. Is holyfield that much better than ken norton? Please, explain the "joke" to me because i just don't see it.

[Phillyfan]

How about this. Why don't we ask our own Ron Lipton what he thinks. He knows all the players and was witness to what was going on in that time period.Plus he is impartial.
Ron, what are your thoughts?

[HE Grant]

He did not beat a prime Foreman and that is exactly my point. Can't expect a guy that calls himself Phillyfan to be objective about a favorite son.

[Off The River]

Holyfield also lost to Michael Moorer. I see no reason why a slick guy like Young wouldn't give Holyfield problems.

[hawk5ins]

Also Knocked Out Micheal Moorer, who fights NOTHING Like Jimmy Young BTW.

And my scorecard in the first bout saw Evander winning a close snoozer.

I See Holmes, Evander and Pre Manila Ali all winning rather confortably agianst Young. It probably would'nt be all that enjoyable to watch, But I see nothing that would tell me they don't win.

RE Norton. Agian, Had Kenny beating Young by a c-hair. Could have gone either way. For those of you who want to give Larry Holmes SHIT about beating an Old Kenny Norton and only by split decision, please don't out of the OTHER side of your mouth's credit Young with a CLEAR victory over a PRIME Norton. Especially since considering only 4 months seperates Norton's back to back bouts with Young and Holmes.

I understand by manipulating the versions of Norton here, it's easier to make your case for stating Young Beats Holmes. But some of us here are not missing the blatant inconsistancy here that is being utilized to strengthen your position.

Hawk

[HE Grant]

Why not pick each guys worst night ... How about Young losing to Randy Neuman or drawing with Billy Arid ?

[Ron Lipton]

Both He Grant and Philly Fan make solid points on this issue.

One thing you cannot take away from Jimmy Young may his soul rest in peace, is that he did the job on two big killer bully punchers that being Foreman and Lyle. I was never really impressed with Jimmy as a force by himself of championship Joe Louis caliber, but he was one of those cagey pros like Holly Mims who lost to guys he never should have lost to but had sporadic interest and motivation in staying in peak condition.

His tactic of pulling his head out of the ropes against Ali kind of sullied his other accomplishments against the legend that night of April 30, 76 and he was not exactly a Max Baer or Ingo with the right hand, or a Liston or Frazier with the left hook. His jab was no Ali, Louis or Holmes but the whole package was enough to rise to the occasion and make guys look ridiculous with his uncanny timing, ring generalship and defense.

Foreman was not the guy who poleaxed Norton and Smoking Joe that night against Jimmy but he still had some of the stuff he showed against Lyle left in his arsenal. Jimmy drove him nuts and yes Big George did fall apart, but like Joey Maxim said when critics told him his TKO over Ray Robinson was just from the Sugar man wilting from the oven like heat, Joey said, "Whadda think, I had a fu..k.ng air conditioner in my corner?"

George fell apart mentally but Jimmy was the one who tied him up in mental knots and would not go down that night. Got to give him Kudos for that.

World shaker? No. Cagey dangerous, crafty vet worthy of respect, absolutely.

best,
Ron

[HE Grant]

George fell apart mentally and Jimmy was able to benefit from it. He did not cause it from scratch. He was able to exploit damaged goods ... his timing was perfect ...

[Phillyfan]

I understand by manipulating the versions of Norton here, it's easier to make your case for stating Young Beats Holmes. But some of us here are not missing the blatant inconsistancy here that is being utilized to strengthen your position.

Hawk

Are you talking to me? Where did i state young beats holmes? I stated "He might have lost decisions to holmes and holyfield, but to say it would be a joke is going a bit far "

i respect Rons opinion.

I still believe george was still in his prime mentally and physically going into that fight. He himself said so in his book. As the fight progressed, did he get more and more desperate, yes. How would the fight have gone different for a pre-ali foreman? Jimmys goal was to take george into the later rounds, which he did. George fell apart after the fight. Mentally he couldn't take losing again, but during the fight, he thought he was winning. Again, straight from his book.

[Phillyfan]

I think I am being objective. Look at my posts, I never say Young beats a prime Ali, Holmes, or Holyfield. My point is its not beyond the realm of possibility. I object to terms like "would have murdered him" and "a joke". I base my opinion on youngs career. Only 1 TKO to Shavers. The Cooney fight was stopped because of a cut. Was Jimmy the greatest boxer ever, hell no. But he went the distance with the best of his era. So to say he would have been "a joke" against any opponent is a poor choice of words and very insulting. Was Foreman damaged goods going into the fight? maybe, but according to foremans own words, he was confident and felt he was winning the fight. I believe he fell apart after the fight, but you can't take anything away from Jimmy for that. thats as plain as i can make it.

[apollack]

Young got his ass handed to him by Cooney. Cut or no cut, he was on his way to getting brutally stopped. But I understand what you mean by arguing that Young was not an easy win for a lot of guys. His style was designed to frustrate.

[Phillyfan]

I'll agree on the cooney fight. Jimmy would also agree. You don't hear me saying Jimmy was damaged goods for that fight. Bottom line, Cooney got his hand raised at the end of the fight, no excuses.

[Michael Frank]

Remember, holyfield lost 111-117 to chris byrd. Byrd is one of the better boxers as opposed to sluggers of today.Young lost a narrow decision to ken norton. Is holyfield that much better than ken norton? Please, explain the "joke" to me because i just don't see it.

Holyfield was about 100 years old when he lost to Byrd and this example just doesn't belong in an objective discussion, I feel.

Relative to Norton: Holyfield, unlike Norton, comes to cream guys, to really beat them up badly, giving them no rest or feel-out period. In his day, he was consistently successful at that. By the time he fought Moorer and Bowe, not to mention everyone afterward, he was a shell of himself. Beating Tyson was pretty spectacular in this light, though he, too, was well past his prime.

Holy, being far more aggressive than Norton, faster, and with more skills, is to me a more dangerous fighter to get in the ring with than Kenny. Norton was a tough guy with good KO power, but Holy in his day was a more lethal guy. Though Evander was "smaller," I feel quite sure of this anyway.

[Michael Frank]

Giving decisions to guys like Jimmy Young who fight like that is why we have more horseshit boring fights. That was a slap in George's face and I think he thought if that's what they want to see, they can have it, and he walked away from the game. I feel bad for the man. He brought a lot of entertainment to the game with his crushing style, but wasn't appreciated. Fans pay to be entertained. Wasn't Foreman-Lyle one of the best fights ever? Which of Young's fights can we say that about? Bottom line is that the fans appreciated George in his comeback, which is why it lasted so much longer.

Well said, apollack. I agree with every word, and I do NOT dislike Young. It's just the truth.

Remember that whiny look Young often had on his face during fights? Every time I saw him do that, I'd hope he throw some leather, but mostly he'd just give that look of someone wronging him--without a comeback blow. In Jimmy's defense, he sometimes gave that look after truly being fouled, and thankfully didn't answer by fouling. Holyfield or Tyson would answer with a foul.

[HE Grant]

There is a difference between comparing fighters as a joke and saying one who have murdered the other. I never said anyone murders Young. His particular skill set makes it very difficult for anyone to murder him in his prime although Cooney was on his way to doing so to an older Young. I have never seen his first Shavers fight. I said positioning him and his achievements as comparable to great fighters like Holyfield and Holmes is a joke and I stand by that.

The joke about the comparison below between Norton and Holyfield is that Norton was exactly the type of fighter that might have beaten Holyfield. Evander was not a monster puncher that would freeze up Norton. Norton was very strong, very fast in his own right, had a big right hand, and excellent jab and was very well conditioned. While Evander matches up better against bigger punchers, I can definately see a prime Norton beating Holyfield.

[Phillyfan]

And Young on his best night couldn't stay in the same ring with a "prime Ali." Holyfield, too, would have murdered Jimmy on Jimmy's best night. .

Apollack "Giving decisions to guys like Jimmy Young who fight like that is why we have more horseshit boring fights"


If you want to blame anyone for todays boring fights, blame Muhammad Ali. Does anyone think the rope-a-dope makes for an exciting fight? Leaning against the ropes and letting a guy pound on you until he gets tired. Not to mention grabbing behind the head and clinching to kill any counterpunching. Used to be if a fighter didn't throw a certain amount of punches a round, he would be disqualified.

I guess I'm going to get all kinds of hatemail for this.

[hawk5ins]

Was I directing anything specific to you?

If the context of my posts seem to address something you have said previously than I think you can assume that that it was directed towards you. If it doesn't, then it wasn't.

I was however in a seperate thread, DEFINITELY directing comments towards you regarding Jeff Garcia, Terrell Owens and Donovan McNabb and who among those three actually got the Eagels to the Super Bowl agaisnt the Patriots.

Just in case you forgot about that Greatest Super Bowl Upset thread.

Hawk

[Phillyfan]

I haven't forgotten superbowl thread, just got bored with it and haven't gone back to it for a few days

[hawk5ins]

Is understandable.

Hawk

[HE Grant]

Phillyfan, it's been a while since anyone here has picked such surgical, selective slices of fighters careers and used them in an argument against the fighter as a whole ... Ali employed the rope a dope first against Foreman puching 33 and for the rest of his career that was clearly on the downside. His previous 12 years had been far different. You chose to use that fragment against Ali to defend Young who displayed worse tactics as a much younger fighter ...

[kikibalt]

I guess I'm going to get all kinds of hatemail for this.

Not from me you're not, because I agree with you on what you said about Ali.

[rocky111]

Ya know i rewatched the Ali v Young fight. Ali fought flat footed (not in shape to move) and he looked silly because Young kept distance (Sharkey v Schmeling, Braddock v Baer, Spinks v Braxton etc) never giving Ali a good shot at a powerful punch. Meanwhile he outjabbed him, countered well and banged to the middle of the belly all night. The round where Ali tried to move, Young like Doug JOnes proved no sucker and countered beautifully with a hard right when Ali tried to move in and bang. I really think Young won most of these rounds by out boxing Ali. Lets not forget what real boxing means. Its to outmanuver your foe and counter effectively. Jimmy looked much healthier than Ali that night also much more in shape and never tired at all. Boring? Maybe. But he won that fight with ease IMO.

[rocky111]

Ya know i rewatched the Ali v Young fight. Ali fought flat footed (not in shape to move) and he looked silly because Young kept distance (Sharkey v Schmeling, Braddock v Baer, Spinks v Braxton etc) never giving Ali a good shot at a powerful punch. Meanwhile he outjabbed him, countered well and banged to the middle of the belly all night. The round where Ali tried to move, Young like Doug JOnes proved no sucker and countered beautifully with a hard right when Ali tried to move in and bang. I really think Young won most of these rounds by out boxing Ali. Lets not forget what real boxing means. Its to outmanuver your foe and counter effectively. Jimmy looked much healthier than Ali that night also much more in shape and never tired at all. Boring? Maybe. But he won that fight with ease IMO.

[raylawpc]

You have more endurance than me, Rocky. I've tried to rewatrch Ali-Young, but I keep falling asleep.

[10-8]

I just sat through it and scored it.

I've tried to favour Jimmy and gave him rounds 1,2,3,10,11,14 & 15. Rounds 10 and 11 were marginal with Ali up on his toes and neither guy really scoring much. Both could have been scored for Ali or scored even. I gave Jimmy the benefit of the doubt and gave him those rounds.

At best it's seven rounds for Young. Switch the odd round and at best it's a one round fight for either guy. No highway robbery.

There were alot of rounds that Young did very little but back away and land the odd counterpunch. Ali for his efforts tried to make a fight out of it in the middle rounds and carried the fight to Young even if he didn't look pretty doing it. Ali blew the first three rounds and from rounds 4-9 was aggressively outhustling Young even if he was missing alot. He was still more busy than Young who spent more time posing than exchanging. Ali blew his load and gassed out after the 13th when Young twice ducked out of the ring when trapped on the ropes and the better conditioned Jimmy took the last two rounds.

I didn't penalize Young for ducking his head through the ropes though he should have been. As I said, I tried to favour Young.

I don't see how Ali detractors can moan about Ali's clinching or rope-a-doping then in the same breath praise Young's passive effort which included ducking through the ropes 6 times, dropping to the floor in clinches or pitty-patting to Ali's body in close.

[raylawpc]

I am certainly not calling out my good friend 10-8, but in several threads regarding Jimmy Young I see comments from some posters about penalizing Young for ducking through the ropes to get away from punishment.

Although I question that approach as a strategy, is it really against the rules to do so? And if so, what rule? Personally, I never seen it mentioned in the rulebook.

[10-8]

Ray I asked Ron Lipton awhile back and this was his response.

"I would have warned Young with several hard warnings maybe 2-3, then deducted a point for failing to obey the referee's warnings. I would have said if you keep turning your back and hiding outside the ropes you will be disqualified. If it kept up he would have been DQ'd. Jimmy rest his soul did some job on Lyle and Foreman and was very clever in his fights with Norton and others. That hiding outside the ropes is not acceptable in a pro fight."

Bottom line for me is it's an act of surrender, by purposely putting yourself in a position not to be hit, like turning your back on an opponent or taking a knee. It's an act of surrender.

Protect yourself at all times.

[raylawpc]

Maybe, but I don't think there is a specific rule against it. Kind of an interesting issue, I think. How do you warn somebody for doing something that's not against the rules?

I think Jimmy would have had a good complaint successfullly protected himself - given that he very nearly beat Ali using that tactic.

[HE Grant]

What exactly did the Ali fight prove for Young? That he could run, hide and pitter-pat his way to a maybe decision over a grossly fat, highly unmotivated and under trained, old Ali? The Young supporters are making this seem as if that borefest was some crowning achievement. In his second reign Ali looked terrible on several occasions , coming in fat and out of shape. He may have lost to Young. He was thrashed by Norton who deserved a decision over a much better conditioned and slighter younger Ali than Jimmy fought. He did absolutely nothing against Ron Lyle for ten rounds until he woke up ... Jimmy deserves credit for catching Foreman on the right night and squeeking out a decision, beating the slow footed Lyle twice and giving Norton a challanging battle when Norton was the best heavyweight in the world... again, I see him as a less consistant, less conditioned Chris Byrd at best ...