Ali's chin in the 60's & 70's, discuss...

**Sharkey** · 02-02-2008, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Enswell

I'm not very good with numbers. Could you please explain why this is so?

A theory could be offered regarding percentages of total weight. Those percentages are, however, numbers all the same.

**Enswell** · 02-02-2008, 03:02 PM

[QUOTE=hawk5ins]I simply said I would NOT, answer your question.

Aw, come on. Pretty please?

Why weight wouldn't be a factor over 175 has always puzzled me. As far as weight classes under 175, I don't see how that pertains to my question.

I have a hard time getting my mind around the idea that a guy who weighs 175 isn't at a major disadvantage when fighting a guy who weighs 200. Sure, this disadvantage can be, and has been overcome with other factors such as speed, natural talent,etc. But the idea that weight isn't a big factor at heavy doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

**hawk5ins** · 02-02-2008, 03:58 PM

This was the line you were questioning:

A 25 pound weight differnce between 135 and 160 is SIGNIFICANTLY more Dramatic than a 25 pound weight difference for a Heavyweight. Or for the matter of Ali, an 8 pound weight difference.

You asked this: "I'm not very good with numbers. Could you please explain why this is so?"

Yet you don't see how weights Below 175 pertain to your question?

Just spitballing here, but, maybe this is why I'm not bothering with an answer and rather I'm just giving up...More Numbers.

Hawk

**Michael Frank** · 02-02-2008, 05:27 PM

How about this? Of COURSE weight difference between 175 and 200 matters, but not as much as with the little guys. Percentagewise it's not nearly as much as the same 25 pounds between 118 and 143. (14% increase for the bigger guys, 21% for the smallers ones in the above example).

And, we've all seen MANY cases of a Dempsey- or Marciano-sized guy destroying much larger foes. So history has shown us this.

But, how many times have we seen a featherweight beat a jr. middle? I think never. Never even gets in the ring with him. Very rarely, a PBF-type keeps moving up in weight, a la Arguello, but these guys put on muscle and don't fight at much of a weight disadvantage to the "bigger" foe, if any. What would happen if the great KO artist Arguello at 130 cracked Mike McCallum at 154 on the chin? I think, not much would happen. No one has even ATTEMPTED this. If the great Monzon at 160 nails Jerry Quarry on the button, I think Jerry just laughs it off.

But 185-lb guys have tried and succeeded at bringing down gigantic heavyweights. Even Archie Moore dropped (the non-gigantic but steel-chinned) Marciano.

Not sure the "why" or the math is important, Enswell, we just all know that one, but not the other, is so, from seeing it with our own eyes.

**Enswell** · 02-03-2008, 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by Michael Frank

How about this? Of COURSE weight difference between 175 and 200 matters, but not as much as with the little guys. Percentagewise it's not nearly as much as the same 25 pounds between 118 and 143. (14% increase for the bigger guys, 21% for the smallers ones in the above example).

And, we've all seen MANY cases of a Dempsey- or Marciano-sized guy destroying much larger foes. So history has shown us this.

But, how many times have we seen a featherweight beat a jr. middle? I think never. Never even gets in the ring with him. Very rarely, a PBF-type keeps moving up in weight, a la Arguello, but these guys put on muscle and don't fight at much of a weight disadvantage to the "bigger" foe, if any. What would happen if the great KO artist Arguello at 130 cracked Mike McCallum at 154 on the chin? I think, not much would happen. No one has even ATTEMPTED this. If the great Monzon at 160 nails Jerry Quarry on the button, I think Jerry just laughs it off.

But 185-lb guys have tried and succeeded at bringing down gigantic heavyweights. Even Archie Moore dropped (the non-gigantic but steel-chinned) Marciano.

Not sure the "why" or the math is important, Enswell, we just all know that one, but not the other, is so, from seeing it with our own eyes.

Yes, I guess you're right. Thanks for responding.

**walshb** · 02-04-2008, 05:44 AM

Quick question?

Does anyone think that Ali in the 70's weighing 210lbs takes Banks' shot better than he did weighing 194lbs. Does the increased weight play any ROLE?

**walshb** · 02-04-2008, 06:33 AM

"Aw, come on. Pretty please?

Why weight wouldn't be a factor over 175 has always puzzled me. As far as weight classes under 175, I don't see how that pertains to my question.

I have a hard time getting my mind around the idea that a guy who weighs 175 isn't at a major disadvantage when fighting a guy who weighs 200. Sure, this disadvantage can be, and has been overcome with other factors such as speed, natural talent,etc. But the idea that weight isn't a big factor at heavy doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, that's just my opinion".[/QUOTE]

I agree with you, but I also agree with Michael that in the heavies there is no limit and it seems not to be as big a factor as say 25lbs between a feather and a JM....

Defintely IMO, there is a big difference between a 175lb fighter going in against a 200+ fighter, providing both are pretty special. Isn't that why it was so so hard for a LH to capture the title?

It wasn't simply because they weren't good enough. Also, it was because they weren't big enough and strong enough to compete. So the
proof is there...

**raylawpc** · 02-04-2008, 07:24 PM

Back to Ali's chin, I don't know if his chin became stouter with the passage of time, but I believe he was a tougher minded individual after the exile. I think that toughness came from dealing with adversity - getting stripped of his title, being convicted, and then facing prison.

**Enswell** · 02-05-2008, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by walshb

"Aw, come on. Pretty please?

Why weight wouldn't be a factor over 175 has always puzzled me. As far as weight classes under 175, I don't see how that pertains to my question.

I have a hard time getting my mind around the idea that a guy who weighs 175 isn't at a major disadvantage when fighting a guy who weighs 200. Sure, this disadvantage can be, and has been overcome with other factors such as speed, natural talent,etc. But the idea that weight isn't a big factor at heavy doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, that's just my opinion".

I agree with you, but I also agree with Michael that in the heavies there is no limit and it seems not to be as big a factor as say 25lbs between a feather and a JM....

Defintely IMO, there is a big difference between a 175lb fighter going in against a 200+ fighter, providing both are pretty special. Isn't that why it was so so hard for a LH to capture the title?

It wasn't simply because they weren't good enough. Also, it was because they weren't big enough and strong enough to compete. So the
proof is there...[/QUOTE]

**Enswell** · 02-05-2008, 09:20 AM

[/QUOTE]
"I agree with you, but I also agree with Michael that in the heavies there is no limit and it seems not to be as big a factor as say 25lbs between a feather and a JM....

Defintely IMO, there is a big difference between a 175lb fighter going in against a 200+ fighter, providing both are pretty special. Isn't that why it was so so hard for a LH to capture the title?

It wasn't simply because they weren't good enough. Also, it was because they weren't big enough and strong enough to compete. So the
proof is there...[/QUOTE]"

I agree with Michael,too, but there's been a school of thought over the years that says weight plays no factor, or very litte factor, over 175. I don't believe it. How much of a factor could differ from fight to fight, though.

As far as increased weight affecting Ali's chin? well, he seemed more durable in the 70s, but he was also more stationary, and might have been able to see the punches better.