Ok, Starling S
Ok, Starling S
Ah, here we go again, just like on Raffie's board. My position remains the same: two guys rolling around on the canvas engaged in hot monkey sex. PeteLeo.
Personally, I'm abig fan of the striking element. There are some serious stand uo fights out there. Some guys just refuse to take the fight to the ground. The current P4P fighter, Anderson Silva is a lethal Muai Thai fighter with great grappling skills.
I prefer boxing over MMA, but it is here to stay. One thing I think you will se in the future is hybrid events with a boxing match, and MMA match and a kickboxing match all in one venue.
Perhaps its my years over here in Asia and my own study of martial arts, but I see no problem with showcaseing all talents. K1 fightiong will have a kickboxing match and then an MMA match back to back.
I personally don't like watching the grappling thing, but I have seen some really busy fighters go to the ground and make it exciting. I have seen a lot of snoozers as well.
As a life long boxing fan, I am not going to stop watching the sport, I will watch both.
I respect MMA and the fighters. I have been watching both sports since my teens and practice them for self-defense. It's my #2 sport, easily.
You said boxers were some of the most embarrassing competitors in MMA and I would agree. But, so far, they've all been over the hill taking cheques. Considering that, how do you think your average MMA fighter without an extensive boxing or muay thai background would do on the undercard of an Friday Night Fights bout?
How many of them would really even be notable amateurs?
There are less than a handful of top MMA guys I would give a chance at being a contender in professional boxing. Arlovski would be a fringe guy. Same with Cro Cop. Lidell goes 15-1 on the southern and mid-west circuit before getting beat up on TV.
Conversely a good boxer with little to no experience in MMA would also likely be beaten. It's neither here nor there. Most everyone comes in with some background or finds their niche anyway.
And for those who don't appreciate MMA for whatever reason (don't like grapping, don't like the way it's presented, too old or lazy to get into something else..heh) just think that these techniques came from traditional martial arts... like boxing. It's legit.
I've been thinking about this the last few days...
MMA and the athletes have not peaked in ability yet. This is all still new and there is still much to be learned, technically. There are guys competing who are novices in some aspect of the game- striking, control, submission, clinch... As the sport evolves a better amateur system will come and then we will see more complete fighters and a higher quality of athlete.
A boxing/mma card had never occurred to me before... I like it!
PS sorry for that long-winded mess.
There is such a USA-centric ring to this debate.
I think the vast majority of MMA related threads that talk about boxing being in trouble, should all be made to write "in the states" after it.
UFC is huge in the states, MMA's is huge in Japan through the old Pride and numerous other combat sports that the Japanese enjoy.
There are some UFC events in England and there are a lot of European fighters and MMA conferences, but whilst UFC PPV numbers in the states are very healthy, some boxing fans looking at a sport as the Sony Liston waiting in the alley for boxing to walk into by mistake.
And why not? Only has one sanctioning body that equals one belt, a pretty logical and sensible set of weight divisions without all the "Supers" and "Juniors" and then notice all the positive coverage the fights get - Which funnily enough all seem to happen about the same time as say a Klitchko/Ibragmiov or John Ruiz fight - With the young folks especially.
However - A cursory look at wikipedia will show you there are 47 (!) MMA orgainisations - Some are defunct or not actual orgainisations- But over half of them are active and promoting events in the states and aborad - MM-Alphabet soup anyone?
UFC might be the "name brand" - But Dana White in the opinion of many MMA fans has dropped the ball with the Pride purchase in Japan as he's not really done anything in that market, nor in South America, which is really the cradle of modern MMA.
The weight classes are all well and good - But the lack of depth within each class is reflected in my view, in the poor renumeration the fighters recieve. You have to know that when your iconic stars like Randy Coture pack up and leave that there's something failing somewhere - The money from all these super healther PPV numbers are not going to the fighters who get between 10 and 400K depending on their status.
It also exposes the risk of more rival orgainisations springing up that are liking the flavor of the month MMA brings to sports. Another sign to me that MMAlphabet soup isn't only a possiblity, but really a likleyhood in the near future.
MMA fans will tell you that the cards are getting better and better - And they are to MMA fans - On paper at least. I saw both the thrillogy of Vasquez/Marquez and the UFC on the weekend and let me tell you - All of the fights on that long card of decent match ups could be thrown in together and not match the excitment of the thrillogy's conclusion.
Boxing is my favourite sport, but I watch and have always enjoyed all combat sports. So I was quite open to enjoying the raw brutality of the UFC when it first started. Being a video game/martial art movie buff - the tourney that pitted all these fighters of different styles and techniques against one another seemed like a great idea.
But now in 2008, I look at the UFC and MMA's development and I think there could be a pretty strong argument made that the sport of MMA is not quite the monster in the night that many boxing observers make it out to be - At least in a broader international context.
I guess when you come from a country who's national pastime is Baseball and Gridiron Football - Sports not played at a professional level in many countries relative to boxing, soccer etc - That you guys might fall into the state of mind that "as the USA goes, so does boxing" - But really looking at English and German boxing cards in recent years, not to mention what a phenom like Manny Pacquaio does for a smaller country like the Phillipines - You have to balance your view a little.
Of course the US is still the home of pro boxing, but that may well change over time. It may be the death knell for getting boxing back on free to air TV in the states - But it really is just a call to arms for the industry to pull its finger out and do a bit more about the sport and not selfish interests and bank balances.
I find it very interesting that boxing's biggest opponent pre-MMA was the AMA and the Dr's of the world. I wonder what they think about MMA and if it addresses any of the medical concerns...
I just deleted another 4 para's....sorry guys - Not a pessimist, despite the user name
Prodigious1 and Doomeddisciple,
Great points, both of you! Certainly, I can only speak for the popularity or lack thereof for each sport as they pertain to the USA, absolutely.
Prodigious1, I think your idea for a mixed card (boxing and MMA in the same arena the same night) would be fantastic. Surely, there would be some people who wouldn't want to sit through one or the other, but for the most part, it would help the visibility of both sports for future generations.
Doomed, you made a number of terrific points, but I ask you: how many Vasquez/Marquez-type bouts--in terms of excitement and drama-- do we get in even a 5-year period. To me, precious few. And nowadays, most big-hype fights for mega millions of dollars are disappointing bouts, especially anything involving DLH or PBF.
My only disagreement with you, respectfully, is that I think the better athletes and better "real" fighters are truly in MMA. Not knocking boxing, a sport I grew up with, I just know what I see. And, to me, as noted in an older thread, IMO most boxers today are not really that good even at BOXING. Much less anything else.
Too many leaping punches that miss, too many winded guys after a few rounds, trainers whose best advice is "You've got to step it up, Champ" or "He's nothing! He's more tired than you are!" or "You be the boss (or governor)" and absolutely kindergarten stuff like that. I remember 2 heavyweight contenders of the early 1980s, Scott Frank and Renaldo Snipes, BOTH swinging and falling down in their fight. How embarrassing for our sport.
So, when I hear more scientific and strategic advice coming from the MMA corner people, who all sound more intelligent (at least in the US), I come to respect it more and more every year.
A final thought: if you could choose but one for your own self-defense, would it be boxing or a form of MMA? Me: MMA, without hesitation.
I'll love boxing till I die, but for the few great fights, and determined fighters, that we see all too infrequently.
Last edited by Michael Frank; 03-04-2008 at 02:42 AM.
Boxing will always be #1 to me, but MMA will always be #2. I'm that rare breed that will watch traditional martial arts though. Like muay thai, jiu-jitsu, judo and even "show" arts....
The shared boxing and MMA card was not my idea. I read it in the thread earlier. I'd check who it was but it's 3:25 am. Whoever brought up the idea, take a bow.
If I had to choose (which I have and do) it would predominantly be boxing, but a lot of work done in the clinch. Just being able to punch, palm, forearm, elbow from any position. I love the clinch because of the short strikes and the control aspect. I do enjoy the knees as well. Submissions are options but not the focal point.
So... I guess both...? Just depends on where the fight goes and what happens.
Great post, Doomed. I've echoed most of the things you pointed out on another boxing forum where it seems like I hear some kinda boxing vs MMA argument daily. It's getting old. But this one is by far the most informed and controlled.
The pay scale for these athletes is criminal in most cases. That part really bothers me.
You know, Doomed, my guess is that MMA doesn't pay less to its fighters on average, but more, compared to boxers. I'm talking across the board, NOT just comparing Randy Couture with Klitshko or Mayweather, where MMA then falls short. I assert this because so many boxers make next to nothing.
I could be wrong, but this is what I think is happening. The MMA guys are not starving, but how many boxers not in the top 10 make anything to speak of?
Doomeddisciple made an excellent post. The UFC didn't take advantage of it's position and already you are seeing groups like EliteXC gaining a foothold in the marketplace. Soon, the romantic days of one (fairly universally recognized) MMA champ will be long gone. They'll have the same BS that boxing has.
Michael, I have to strongly disagree your assertion that Modern MMA is a "real fight" . . .it's as much a controlled sport as boxing. If you don't allow headbutts, lowblows, eye gouging, the ref can stop the fight etc. . . .it's not a real fight, simple as that. And I've trained with MMA fighters and boxers and to say the MMA guys are better trained is ridiculous. Most boxers are not fat spoiled HWs like Hasim Rahman, they train like demons and generally have the better stamina as boxing requires you to fight longer than MMA, by the championship level, MUCH longer. The in-gym conditioning is practically the same between both sports, but boxers on a whole do more running and more rounds of sparring. Heavy weight-lifting is much more in the culture of MMA than boxing and you can tell when these over-puffed guys fatigue after 5 minutes. I've seen more than a few top MMA guys gasping for air after 4 minutes of basic stand-up fighting.
THe likes of Mayweather, Marquez, Pavlik could fight for 3 times the duration of a Couture, Cro-Crop, and Liddell. I'm not going to get into the whole "who beats who" tired argument, but to say MMA fighters are better athletes/better conditioned on a whole is just not accurate.
The "no knees or kicks to a downed opponent" rule automatically disqualifies American MMA from being "real". How many times have you seen that rule completely change a fight? It's annoying, and makes no sense.
I'm sure many of you have seen this before but...
Anderson Silva — $260,000 ($70,000 to show, $70,000 to win, plus $120,000 in bonuses)
Dan Henderson — $160,000 ($100,000 to show, $60,000 for Fight of the Night bonus)
Andrei Arlovski — $170,000 ($105,000 to show, $65,000 to win)
Heath Herring — $140,000 ($70,000 to show, $70,000 to win)
Chris Leben — $110,000 ($25,000 to show, $25,000 to win, $60,000 for Knockout of the Night bonus)
Jon Fitch — $60,000 ($30,000 to show, $30,000 to win)
Diego Sanchez — $60,000 ($30,000 to show, $30,000 to win)
Cheick Kongo — $30,000
Yushin Okami — $28,000 ($14,000 to show, $14,000 to win)
Evan Tanner — $25,000
Josh Koscheck — $20,000 ($10,000 to show, $10,000 to win)
Alessio Sakara — $17,000
Luigi Fioravanti — $16,000 ($8,000 to show, $8,000 to win)
Luke Cummo — $16,000
Jorge Gurgel — $14,000 ($7,000 to show, $7,000 to win)
Dustin Hazelett — $12,000
Chris Wilson — $12,000
Jake O’Brien — $11,000
David Bielkheden — $8,000
John Halverson — $3,000
Total comes to less than a million dollars between 20 fighters. They made over 2 million from the live gate alone, and I'd be willing to bet this PPV sold around 400,000 buys.
I've only seen Dana break $1,000,000 spent "officially" one time, I think. And that was only because Chuck Lidell made $500,000. As absurd as some of this is, they were much worse as little as a year ago. Thank God for sponsors. But it does leave you to wonder where they'll be in 20 years.
Last edited by prodigious1; 03-04-2008 at 03:13 PM.
By the way, those knee strikes to the head are no joke!
I'm reminded of one time years ago reading about a lady who used this method when she a man accosted her in her home and was on top of her. She got him to relax momentarily and slammed her knee into his chin, knocking him unconscious.
I saw one MMA contest in which a hard-swinging puncher dropped this guy and was pummeling him, only to get caught with a knee to the chin in a clinch. That was all she wrote. If it wasn't for that knee, he would likely have knocked out his opponent.
Hagler04, I just am saying MMA is miles closer to a real fight than is boxing. This is debatable?
You say it's "as much a controlled sport as boxing"? Boxing allows NOTHING offensive beyond punching with gloved, padded fists, end of story. Hell, a backhand punch or slap is even illegal (why I don't know). No clinches, pushes, and God forbid elbows or legs or knees or headbutts. That''s fine with me, that's boxing. But it is incredibly limited for real self-defense.
The UFC in 1993, at its start, allowed butting, low blows, knees to the chin, elbows to the head WHILE BOTH MEN ARE ON THE FLOOR, EVEN, and a ton of things to keep it real but not disgust viewers. It has been softened up since then to bring in more fans and keep it safer.
As to the shape of the athletes, I'm not only talking wind. But boxing is still the only sport where I see guys out of breath and leaning on each other 1/3 into the match (Lewis-Klitschko, for example). Most of the top boxers are usually in good shape, I can't say that for the rest. The MMA guys are more well-muscled and still don't run out of gas in their admittedly shorter bouts.
But when they had unlimited-duration bouts, the MMA guys fought hard to the end, sometimes 25-40 minutes and more, with NO time off in between rounds, because there were NO rounds. Just one continuous fight. I don't see the similarity in conditioning to boxers that you state.
First off Michael -
That's probably a valid point you make about the pay scale being more even from the top of the card to the bottom - But in it's miserly-ness
But seriously - I think that's pretty offensive to only pay Josh Koscheck $20K, his fight was by far the best on that card and when you consider that Arlovski's fight wasn't even on the televised proportion of the card that seems a big stretch.
I tell you what though - The other American centric boxing complaint - The HBO Commentary Team - I would listen to Kellerman, Foreman and Lewis as the whole team for every fight compared to having to listen to Joe Rogan... "Dear Joe R - A microphone amplifies the human voice so you DON'T have to yell into the mike, you DON'T have to yell all the time"
When you talk about what self defence I would prefer to have - MMA is all well and good if you're having a one on one fight - Unfortunaltey playing in bands in seedy pubs my whole adult life and seeing it time and time again - When fights break out - VERY rarely is it a one on one affair.
For example, one of my bouncer buddies works in a club, a guy was causing trouble so he took him down and put him in a rear naked choke hold without applying pressure til his back up arrived, only problem was his two mates kicked mine in the head and he lost three teeth.
I would rather be standing in the street in terms of pure self defence. Not many kickboxer guys I know kick in street fights - They say its too easy to fall over. I mean, without a glove on - even a stiff jab with your body weight behind it is enough to drop or discourage many Saturday night warriors...
Don't get me wrong -I'm cure Chuck Liddell doesn't break into a sweat walking down a dark alley of a night, but I'd rather be back to back with Michael Katsidis in a pub brawl than a submission specialist...
As for boxing having Vasquez/Marquez fights few and far between - I reckon if you go back to 2000 and look at boxing since that time - There's been some utterly stunning fights. Especially for a sport suppsosedly on its death bed.
I would also endorse staying on the feet in the street.
Hey Doomed and ProD,
Great post, Doomed. Can't dispute a bit of it.
Yes, I used to wonder . . . if Royce Gracie was the best fighter on the planet (in 1993-95, certainly one of the best, and undefeated), how does he do when there are MORE than one opponent?? Then, the karate guys, whom he always beats with such ease, seem (from the movies but I'd also bet real life) better prepared to deal with multiple attackers. In all cases, I'd rather have some form of stand-up OTHER THAN boxing. Kick-boxing, karate, whatever. Boxing being the most limited, even among striking martial arts.
The MMA pay, miserly? Yes, you're right. But the sport is still comparatively new and they're all making a living together. If Josh fights 6 times a year for $20K, that $120K/year for a young guy, not too shabby. Not millions like PBF, but better than most boxers (top to bottom) make in a year. Do we really think King and Arum were better or fairer to boxers generally?
My only difference with you? I just love the main UFC announcer, whom I believe is Roggin. He personalizes things, explains quickly what is happening and what the disadvantaged guy needs to do to get out of it, etc. AND, to me, while he is often shouting, I STILL can't hear him very well--they don't balance the crowd noise to a low enough level to make his voice clearly audible at all times.
We might differ on what constitutes "stunning" boxing matches. PBF vs. DLH was raved about by many, Toney against somebody a year or two ago was called the best cruiser bout in history by Lampley . . . me, I just don't see these assessments as on target. I have paid too much money for pay-per-view boxing only to be disappointed time and again, for years. In the mid-1980s on back, I enjoyed many great and very good bouts (for free!), and the number of fine fights IMO has fallen since then.
Just my 2 cents.
Last edited by Michael Frank; 03-05-2008 at 12:10 AM.
Hey mate - I like your 2 cents, especially as I dropped about a buck 25 in rambling in this thread already...
On the pay scale - I guess even moreso in MMA with all the submission stuff (and the guy Josh Fought was an excellent submission guy) - The threat of a career ending or even life threatening injury is there every fight.
20K isn't much if you're career is over from that point - I also wonder how the fighters break up their purses - Boxers give their trainers etc some and split it up...I guess it will take a serious injury or death/near death experience to happen before that is addressed.
I certainly wouldn't argue with you on what guys get paid by King at the bottom of one of his marathon cards. I guess it also depends on how many fights you fight a year as well.
Joe Rogan is a polarizing kinda guy. He trains MMA and has owned a few big mouths my more fanatical MMA fans friends tell me, and I guess I agree with you that he does articulate the action pretty well - The shouting annoys the crap out of me.
If Larry Marchant can drop one his brand of extra dry humourous barbs and comments, I'm sure Joe can too...but whatever..horses for courses - Fear Factor is a terrible show...that didn't help my Rogan fandom either!
Barerra Morales trilogy, Gatti Ward trilogy, Corales Castillo I instantly spring to mind - Toney Vs Jirov was indeed a great fight (probably not as good as Holyfield/Qawi). But there's been a lot of very good PPV's as well, but for me boxing is PPV period.
A bit of your last para about the dollars you've shelled out for PPV's comes down to the availbility of boxing even if you do have to pay for it - Mate - In Australia we NEVER get HBO, we always get Showtime International for broadcasts unless you sneak a look at the net somewhere.
I WISH I could complain about having seen the same old fights on ESPN classic, have HBO docos, showtime etc. I WISH I could deride the Legendary Nights series as many on here have - To me that's all drool worthy viewing - We get occasional fights here in Australia
The only fights I've seen on free to air TV - and I'm 34 - Were the cursory amatuer fights from Olympics and Commonwealth Games (basically like Olypmics-lite for former English colonies, it's more an excercise in positive reinforcement for Australian sportsfolks and Canadian track and fields stars to win something gold before getting a hiding at the Olympics) - Australian media are brutally focussed on our domestic football codes in winter and tennis and cricket in summer. Kostya Tszyu Jesse James Leija was the last time a fight was played on free to air and that as a delayed but welcome telecast - Too bad the fight was a let down.
Even the recent Mundine/Green fight which was HUGE in this country was not on free to air.
I always get a bit bitter reading a lot of you guys complaining about the TV coverage - It costs me 100 bucks AUD a month to get Friday Night Fights a week delayed (your Friday night is our Saturday afternoon) so I always know the result, the PPV's are $$$ and when our regular media covers boxing, it makes the casual ESPN sports casters like Skip Bayless seem like Bert Sugar in comparison...
I take mild issue with this. I tend to think of boxing in street terms when talking about self-defense and not competition. In this case "boxing" includes fists, palms, forearms, elbows, shoulders, the clinch, body punches, throat shots... so old(e) style professional boxing.Originally Posted by Michael Frank
Basically Muay Thai without the kicks, stomps or knees. That is extremely formidable on the street considering what the average drunk guy knows about fighting. I think you'd see more falling down than knockouts from high kicks on the street. But kicking has never been my thing so I am biased there.
Grappling arts or techniques are great because you always have that option to just detain or restrain someone without injuring them seriously. Or, if you want to hurt them... well... you can do that too.
I have my second degree blackbelt in Taekwondo. I grew up in a boxing family and I would have to say the best foundation is boxing. Nothing ends a fight quicker than a punch, from delivery to accuracy, it is simply the best way to take a guy out. You could argue a kick to the balls as well.
In the ongoing MMA debate, I don't remember any quality boxers really bothering going into MMA. It's a lot easier to learn to throw a kick than it is a punch. A knee is easy to learn as well. The low kick is really the only thing missing from the boxers arsenal.
I think Doomed said it best, when he talked about boxing being in trouble in America. It does not have the netwrok support, nor does is have the young white following, but elsewhere, it is alive and well. Japan and Korea still have a decent boxing scene, it just exists alongside the other fighting sports.
As far as crossover, it is already happening. The first quality fighter to make the move was In Jin Chi. You may remember him givng Erik Morales all he could handle. He is still a little old to make any serious waves, but he made a good showing against a guy with a solid 17-4 kickboxing record. This was his debut in K1 fighting.
I don't think that guys who have a base in boxing, wrestling or BJJ should even bother with kicks. It makes them look out of their element most of the time and is too dangerous in terms of loss of balance.
You don't need to kick. Just learn how to check it or counter it.
This is a BOXING SITE. If you want to discuss the technical merits of MMA go to an MMA site or start a thread in our non-boxing forum. This discussion does not belong in the modern BOXING forum.
With all due respect Gor - You started the thread
You're the boss, and I'll refrain from further posts on the merits of MMA in this thread. However, MMA's fortunes could be so related to modern boxing, as you noted by implication in your first post--that it probably does belong here, even the deviations it has taken . . .
Esp. insofar as some of the threads I've been involved in have wandered and meandered about 180 degrees x 10 from the original topic!
Still, your point about where it belongs, etc. shall of course be observed.
I think the growing popularity & evolution of MMA has & will continue to put much some needed pressure on boxing as well.
I think its safe to say boxing has stepped up its competitive matchups in the past 2 years more than in the previous 5 as a direct result of the 400lb gorilla in starting to set up camp in the living room.
The next thing that needs to happen is the upper echelon of boxers need to stop being primadonna's & start fighting more than once or twice a year & roughly for the same amount of money. Maybe then the ridiculous ticket prices will start to level out & make the sport a little more accesible. I am not aware if MMA tickets compete with the same pricing structure as boxing events but I can't imagine it does knowing the salaries that are paid...or maybe it does considering the typically smaller venues of MMA. I woudl be interested to know the facts on this since I'm basically assuming here.
Lastly, boxing overall needs to get more on top of the the promoting efforts. HBO has done a great job the 24/7 series. It is a step in the right direction. This will be the hardest area for boxing to sort out with all the promoting players involved. The UFC was brilliant with it's reality show & I thought it was easier to get into than the competing boxing series. It honestly got me further into MMA than I was previously.
If the promoters don't get their wallets in check along with the increasing demands of the fighters, boxing will slowly be snuffed out in the US. Once MMA begins to put the same effort to markets internationally as they do here, the same will likely happen there as well. I believe its a situation where the 2 can coexist successfully but boxing needs to have a bit of a collective effort to address the looming issues & a little less of the wild west.
Great post Dig.
I always think of the big promoters in the states like Dragon's sitting on treasure and jealously guarding it away from the world.
I mean - Another thing that MMA has done well is market their product to DVD in a direct and official format, giving those that missed the PPV a chance to see the whole card not too long after the event.
Don King and Top Rank alone would own the rights to the fights - Surely they could make a KILLING marketing the DVD's as offical quality products to DVD rental and retail outlets - Pretty much every UFC every is available to purchase and not a grainy 80's VCR dub to DVD either like at least half of my "official" DVD collection.
Case in point - There was a discussion on here about a DVD release with the ESPN crew assessing the greatest HW's. I saw in Borders a similar DVD and just bought it as it was pay day.
I put it on and it's a HBO documentary with Larry Merchant back when he actually still had some colour in his hair and finished the assessment with Ali as he was the current champ at the time...
Surely its a complimentary strategy for the major rights owners to package their fights in an official release to allow non hardcore and casual fans the option.
I could imagine a bunch of youngsters getting into boxing if they had a copy of the Vasquez/Marquez thrillogy on DVD with some nicley edited moments.
Imagine a commentary with the winner of each bout discussing the rounds as it happens etc.
There's so much scope and the boxing DVD shelves where I live are all ancient repackaged garbage quality copies.
Can anyone even tell me if Golden Boy, Top Rank, HBO, King Vision or Showtime even have official DVD's available?
Doomed. I think the only thing wrong with your post was the word dragon. Replace that with dinosaur. I don't want to insult the old school boxing diehards, but the dynamics of the fight game is changing. It's time for the people involved from all levels, which includes promoters, writers, websites and boxing commission.
In the oldtimers section, Randy Gordon mentioned how one boxing writer told him not to be an announcer because he was betraying the boxing writers. I get the same impression with the attitude of many diehard boxing fans.
This board is simply the best boxing board on the web. I only go here for discussion and I learn an awful lot from the members. But when we start getting into a discussion about MMA and are told to drop it when we go off on a tangent, it shows the hostility towards MMA.
I don't think anyone here wants to see boxing die. Again, I prefer boxing to MMA any day of the week, I think that instead of crying about the death of boxing, the fan, writers ect. should try to discuss solutons.
OTR - Well - TO ME, a fight tape collection is a big pile of treasure - Perhaps Don King, Arum, and Oscar/Schaefer could audition for the role of Smaug the Dragon in Peter Jackon's upcoming version of The Hobbit and instead of a mountain filled with vast treasure there's a ready to order affordable top quality DVD series available.
To me I just don't understand why for example - If HBO have Legendary Nights Series, why not put out a package that has the show and the fight?
Imagine having the tale of Leonard Hagler and have Marvin score the rounds as the fight goes? Or even De La Hoya score each round in the tale of DLH V Trinidad.
I know that series wasn't as popular with some of you guys - But that's the sort of thing that I think boxing marketers have just completley missed the boat on.
I get your point. There are lots of options out there. It will just take the right boxing mind out there to straighten it out. I always hoped that Oscar would be the guy to change the face of boxing.
We have the alpabet mess which had got to change and King and Arum will not be around much longer. Like I said befire, it will take a world class boxer with some balls to go into the MMA world and kick some ass to bring back some of the fans.
Whats killing boxing is shows like BROADWAY BOXING promoted by DiBella Entertainment on March 5th at Manhattan Center's Grand Ballroom with ticket prices : $150., $100., $80., $60. and $40. for a ordinary club show featuring Gary Stark Jr. vs Andres Ledesma and Edgar Santana vs Grover Wiley.
Club shows used to be the backbone of boxing where the true fans could be entertained at reasonable and affordable prices for us working stiffs who have supported the game from the beginning. Russell Peltz routinely has better cards at the New Alhambra at $45 and $55 ringside with exec boxes for $65. When this old geezer started going to the fights club shows were 1-2 and 3 bucks and the bigger shows at the Arena and Convention Hall were 3-5 and 8. I know all about inflation but DiBella is really deflating the interest of regular fans for this shit.
By the way, I've been enjoying going to the fights in the Windy City, where the fights generally are competitive, entertaining and fairly reasonable in price. General admission is $25, with ringside seats $100 or so. Of course, I don't pay that, as I get in with press credentials.
I'm not sure what they're charging in Merrillville, Indiana, but I believe the prices are comparable.
Either way, there's definitely something to be said for live boxing versus watching it on TV. From my vantage point, seeing it live versus on TV it's very similar to the difference between watching the Cubs at Wrigley Field and watching it on television.
I've wondered FOR YEARS why HBO doesn't simply sell DVDs of their fight broadcasts, instead of just sit on the material and not make any $. It would be incredibly cheap and could make them an easy buck. Makes ZERO sense!Originally Posted by doomeddisciple