By the way Obama, my view in the walshb Q&A thread, is that Ali
didn't genuinely mean to hurt Joe. It was hype and play that went
too far in Joe's mind....
By the way Obama, my view in the walshb Q&A thread, is that Ali
didn't genuinely mean to hurt Joe. It was hype and play that went
too far in Joe's mind....
Try this Suggestion:
Private Messsage GOR and Ask HIM, HIS opinion if it would be appropriate to ask questions of Randy Gordon in the Ron Lipton Thread and conversely, if it would be appropriate if you were to Ask Questions of Ron Lipton in the Randy Gordon Thread.
By All Means, Take me and MY Opinion, DIRECTLY out of this equation and go and ask the Moderator of this board what is and is not Appropriate.
I just now posted Obama's comments and question to Ron's Q&A. I hope that will end the "controversy." You guys can thank me later.
Last edited by raylawpc; 03-12-2008 at 04:08 PM.
It's more about Tact.
It is nice to see trolls sticking together though.
Excuse me? Are you calling me a troll?
I was not referring to you.
But to be honest, I did not appreciate the sarcastic "controversy" comment.
I explained my reasons to you WHY, I was taking an excepetion to this. And I don't find it all that funny seeing a couple of knuckleheads Intentionally trying to stir up shit.
Quite frankly, it pisses me off.
We have a luxury of having some very knowledgable posters on this site, who have some excellent "insider" backgrounds to our beloved sport.
Let's not act like idiots and drive them away.
You are right, Hawk, I am a knucklehead. I'll leave it to you and Obama to work out.
I didn't ask you to intercede in the first place.
And my apologies for bothering you when I tried to explain my reasonings earlier.
It won't happen agian.
BTW, I wasn't calling YOU a Knuckle head either.
Believe me, my days of intervention are over.
C'mon, let's not ruin Randy's thread with this bickering......
Now let's get back to questions actually to Randy Gordon.
Randy to repeat an earlier set of questions now buried amongst the "rubble": Any insight on whatever happened to writers Gary Morgenstein and Peter King?
Any info on the two would be awesome.
Hawk: Whew! All that squabbling!
Getting back to the tragedy of Billy Collins Jr. for a second, I don't think anybody knows whether his death was self-inflicted or an accident. There was no suicide note that I know of, so we can only speculate on whether or not young Collins took his life in '84. That will be a question I ask producer Eric Drath on my Sirius Radio show next week. However, I don't believe how Collins died is what really matters. What really matters is that he DID die, and was severely depressed when his life ended.
As for writers Gary Morgenstern and Peter King, the last I spoke to either one was when I was Chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission. I spoke to Peter somewhere around 1989, and Gary called me somewhere around 1991 or 1992 just to say hello. I've heard King is working at Newday on Long Island, while Morgy is living in Brooklyn & working in NYC, though I don't know as what. Know what--I'm gonna' look for each guy. Oh, & the Gaetan Hart-Cleveland Denny fight you were talking about, that took place on the undercard to Roberto Duran-Sugar Ray Leonard in June 1980. I was at that card with Bert Sugar, and remember writing a strong piece about the fight in Ring.
I want to thank you and Bert Sugar for getting my interest in boxing history going during your Ring years. That was a great mag you guys had!
I remember the Collins tragedy like it was last week, and perhaps I don't have a real forgiving heart, but I was really apalled that a certain promoter (He of the 120V hairdo) was trying to reintroduce that bucket of s*** Panama Lewis back into boxing, even if only behind the scenes. What's your knowledge and thoughts on this?
Petey: Thanks for the compliments about The Ring Magazine Bert & I put out starting back in 1979. There is no question that those Rings were the best Rings of all time. When we took over the magazine in 1979, it was as dead as a magazine could be without being out of business. We weren't sure if we could resurrect it. Our feeling was, though, let's give it a shot, we can't do any worse than the mag is already doing. From our first issue, the October 1979, Muhammad Ali cover issue, Ring took off for the stars. We really had an amazing run. Thanks for being there with us.
As for Panama Lewis, he continues to work in training camps with lots of fighters. In fact, the last big name, world-class fighter he worked with (though not in the corner, as he is banned throughout the USA) was Sultan Ibragimov. For years, I have have not been convinced Panama was the man who removed the padding from Luis Resto's gloves. When Eric Drath comes on my Sirius Radio show, "Fight Club," next week, he said he intends to break some big news. What "big news" could he want to break? I have a feeling he has found out who the culprit is who removed the padding. Was it Panama, or another corner person? I am anxious to find out what the big news is that Drath wants to announce. I'll be sure to keep all of you posted as soon as the show is over.
I guess my question got lost in the rubble too,
How many amateur fights did you have before that one experiment with the pro fight for the article you wrote? I heard you talking about it on that old fight telecast and you said about 38, was that wins or total fights, how did you do in that long amateur career?
Wing: I had an amateur record of 37-2, with one of my losses coming via decision in the featherweight division of the New York Golden Gloves at Sunnyside Garden in 1969. On that cold winter night, it must have been 35 degrees in the basement locker rooms of Sunnyside, where I started covering professional matches a few years later.
Good to know those two are doing well. Along with you, Stu Saks and a couple of others, they were the first Boxing writers that I began waiting for thier pieces to come out in World, Big Book and International Boxing.
When I first started following the sport religiously (Jan 24, 1976, following the Foreman Lyle bout. Hooked forever from that point!), as you stated, the Ring was not what it would become 3-4 years later under Bert.
In fact, those Weston-led publications had no real competition UNTIL Bert took over the RIng and revived it.
The Boxing Today mags were ok. Boxing Illustrated was particularly week in the mid to late 70's as was the Ring. Granted I collected them all, but 3 stood out above the rest.
What was neat for the fan was when Bert took over the RIng, Weston came back with creating KO magazine. The Ring, KO, World, International and Big Book of Boxing all at one time as top flight mags and then you had the Lou Sahadi pubs and Boxing Illustrated, whihc by what, 82, was back under the Ring helm and was agian an excellent magazine.
Along with multiple fights on every weekend on national TV, you could go to your local newsstand or magazine shop and pickup a handful of EXCELLENT Boxing Mags as well.
Yes, the GOOD OLD DAYS!
Nat Fleischer founded the RING in 1922. He died in the early 1970's.
Was that in response to something here about the Ring that had incorrect Information?
It's pretty common knowledge about Fleischer and his reign at the Mag and that his son in law took it over after his death in 72, Nat Loubet. As well as the Rings active participation in the US Boxing Championships with King and ABC and Johnny Ort and the disgrace the magazine went through until Bert Sugar pulled it out of the garbage.
Our friend Randy Gordon had a pretty active hand with Bert in the resucitation of Bible of Boxing.
I'm not sure why Obama came up with that note of Nat Fleischer, but all the same, I'm glad he did. I never met "Mr. Boxing." He died the year I graduated college. In fact, right about the time I graduated, I called the magazine with the hopes of becoming the Ring's Long Island correspondent. The man who answered the phone was Nat Loubet, who was Nat Fleischer's son-in-law, and the man who would go on to succeed Fleischer as Editor-in-Chief. He old me there was a waiting list to be Long Island correspondent. He was a gentle, soft-spoken man, and he began questioning me about my love for boxing. That's all he had to do! I must've had Loubet on the phone for 20 minutes.
"You've got to think big, Randy," Loubet told me. "Think big and go for it, reach for your dreams."
I told him that one day, I was going to be Editor of The Ring.
"That's it, think big. I like that," he said.
When we hung up, I still wasn't the Long Island correspondent, but I was pumped up beyond belief. I KNEW that one day I was going to be The Ring's Editor-in-Chief.
Seven years later, I received a call from Bert Randolph Sugar. I knew of him from reading his articles in Boxing Illustrated. He told me that he, along with a few investors, had bought The Ring and wanted me to be its Editor. It was a dream come true.
Together, working with the genius of Sugar, we watched a virtually dead magazine rise from the ashes to heights that no boxing magazine--before or after--has ever seen.
This July will be 29 years since I left the strange genius of Stanley Weston and joined forces with Sugar, perhaps the most amazing individual I have ever worked for. Today, nearly 29 years later, Bert & I are still good friends. I thank him for buying The Ring and I thank him for hiring me. The four years we spent together are four of the most special years of my life.
Hopefully, in this string, I can share many of the memories of those years with you.
What are your memories of Herb Goldman?
I spoke on the phone on more than one occasion with Herb as they pertained to a couple of research questions and one time about my concern with where Boxing Illustrated was heading shortly before it became International Boxing Digest.
He was a LOT more open and candid with me than I ever expected him to be and I got the impression that he and Bert, with whom his days went back to the early 80's at the Ring (if not earlier), I'm sure, had had a falling out.
He started going into finance issues the mag was having and to be completely honest, I was feeling more than a bit uncomfortable when I got off the phone with him. I wasn't asking, but yet I was feeling very invasive about professional issues he seemed to have with Bert.
Herb's knowledge and memory for the game are amazing, but I never got the impression he was ever truly happy where he was in his role at the Ring and BI with Bert.
Am I way off on this? Might I just have caught Herb at a bad moment?
Any surface level thoughts on this? I'm not asking for details on "who liked who". That's none of my business really.
Hawk: You didn't catch Herb on a bad day. You just caught Herb being Herb. By the way, Bert Sugar & I always found it ironic that Herb Goldman looked incredibly like another guy with the initials "HG"--Harry Greb. We always thought Greb was reincarnated and came back as boxing historian Herb Goldman.
For the four years they worked together, Goldman's personality clashed with Sugar's. But Goldman had more of a problem with Sugar than Sugar had with Goldman.
Goldman took everything seriously. But that was his job. He was Managing Editor, responsible for the physical cutting and pasting of the magazine. To him, deadlines were of utmost importance. When Sugar failed to get a story in on time, Goldman would freak out. He would sometimes scream, sometimes throw things and, on occasion, stand in a corner and bang his head against a wall. Don't believe me? Ask Bert. If the production of The Ring was going to give someone ulcers, it wasn't going to be Bert or yours truly. Herb had the market on ulcers cornered!
I know the two have spoken over the years, but not too often. I don't see Herb more than once a year, usually at the International Boxing Hall of Fame induction weekend, where he presents the award to the family of the latest Old Timer to be inducted.
Goldman is an amazing boxing historian. In fact, I would put him up there with anybody in terms of knowledge, especially amongst the pre-1940 fighters. Ask him about Benny Leonard, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Stanley Ketchel, Jack Johnson and many more--and he'll give you a discertation on their lives.
His work on the Ring Record Book was invaluable. Basically, the book could not have been done without him.
Goldman's voice is a rich, deep baritone. Quite frankly, he'd be the perfect radio voice for a boxing show. Unfortunately, the temperment he possessed in our Ring days would preclude him from working in the pressure-cooker field of radio. Perhaps he's changed. Mellowed. For his sake, I can only hope so. Nobody needs to live with that much stress inside of them.
Geez, writing this has taken me back to those good old days at 120 W. 31st Street in NYC, to those cigar smoke-filled offices of The Ring.
Time to go give buddy "Uncle" Bert a call.
Last edited by Randy Gordon; 03-13-2008 at 05:06 PM.
I called Sugar's home in Chappaqua, NY,but his voice mail told me he is in Las Vegas for the Manny Pacquiao-Juan Manuel Marquez bout on Saturday. I'll just wait until he gets home to speak with him.
By the way, I just love it the way boxing seems to have stepped up the pace in big fights over the last year. Think the rise in popularity of MMA has anything to do with it? Think boxing feels the pressure? Whatever, the super fights are seeming to be coming closer and closer together.
Hey, I'm not complaining. I love it!
That call I had with Herb was admitedly several years ago. Possibly 94 or 95'. But it was the last time I chatted with him as well as I came off the phone with a "what can of worms did I just open?" feeling.
Harry Greb huh? I always had another comparitive visual when ever I saw Herb and it is by NO MEANS meant as an insult in anyway shape or form.
You place a pencil thin mustache on him and I swear you have John Waters! Facially!
Granted if either one of them began speaking you would have no doubt who was who, but that was the "who does he look like" I always had in my head when ever I saw Herb.
No need to share that one! HA!
HAWK: John Waters? Hmm. Gotta' google him and look at his face. But check out Harry Greb. I'm tellin' ya'--Herb is Harry reincarnated!
I have been asked by a number of people who the announcer was calling the recent Haye-Mormeck fight. I am almost certain it was Col. Bob Sheridan. If anybody thinks it was somebody else, please let me know.
Allow me to ask what may be most unimportant question so far. Mr. Gordon, who gave you the nickname of "Too Sweet" I used to always read when your name was mentioned in the BI of the Sugar years when fights were covered in NY.
Don Elbaum, I believe, was referred to as "The World's Greatest Man." in those fight confidentials as well.
Are these nicknames given by those writers... as I suspect, or what?
This post hopefully will not contribute to lowering the value of this thread!!
I thought it might be Col. Bob as well... and it was one guy, (who just got exicted) and not two different guys as was mentioned....... at least to my ears.Originally Posted by Randy Gordon
Shark: When I read your question, I broke into a huge grin. The nickname "Too Sweet" was given to me by boxing scribes Jack "KO-JO" Obermayer and Jeff Jowett in my pre-NYSAC days. The two of them used to watch me talking endlessly to fans at every boxing event we attended. I remember one day, KO-JO said, "You are not to be believed. You are a TV personality and yet you never act it...you talk to anybody. You are just Too Sweet." In their subsequent fight reports, Jowett & KO-JO would always put in something referring to "Too Sweet," such as "...the announcers for USA Network were Al Albert and Randy "Too Sweet" Gordon."
And, yes, they also referred to Don Elbaum as "The World's Greatest Man." Later they also took to lovingly calling him Don El Bum.
I listened again. It definitely was Col. Bob on the call. Nobody...NOBODY...gets as excited with a big knockdown and stoppage as Sheridan "(OH! A BIG RIGHT HAND SENDS MORMECK DOWN!!!)