Joe Frazier Super Beast

[Monte Cox]

Check out my new video Joe Frazier Super Beast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMdGNhSLE6A

In this video you will see how great Frazier is at slipping punches and how hard it is to hit someone punching down at them. Punching down is a bitch, Frazier was great at getting low, bobbing and weaving and slipping punches.

Frazier is the best of the swarming heavyweights in terms of his skill set as follows:

The Ultimate Swarmer:

1. Joe Frazier has the highest slip and duck rate among all heavyweights
2. His bobbing and weaving style made his opponents punch down at him which left them open to counters
3. Joe applied relentless consistent pressure


His Opponents Had 3 Choices:

1. Hold and clinch -when he would dig both hands to the body
2. Circle and move -when he would cut the ring and slip inside
3. Stand and fight, when opponents would be forced to rush their punches with no time to get set.

These skills make Joe Frazier the best of the great swarming style heavyweights against boxing stylists. That doesn't mean he would beat Jack Dempsey or even Mike Tyson or Rocky Marciano but he was the best at applying consistent pressure and cutting the ring. No one who doesn't have the punch to keep him off has a hope to beat him. He was great against boxers for the reasons stated above. Tommy Gibbons would never see the 15th round against Joe Frazier, although Frazier would never massacre Jess Willard the way Dempsey did. Dempsey and Tyson fought more in spurts. When I watch Dempsey he often follows boxers around, not cutting them off like Frazier does. He is better outside, quicker perhaps (although the clip at the beginning shows Joe on the speed bag- I havn't seen many faster), and Dempsey was a much faster starter than Joe and that might mean the difference head to head, but Frazier is so under- rated.

Smokin' Joe still does not get the credit he deserves for beating Ali. Ali was close to his prime, just turned 29 going into Superfight 1. It is not fair to say that the Ali who fought Frazier was past his peak, ill prepared or suffering from rust. Ali had two tune-up fights before facing Frazier, one of them a 15 round knockout of Oscar Bonavena. It was the only time in his career that Bonavena, who twice went the distance with Frazier, was ever stopped. Ali was not suffering from poor timing against Frazier, nor was he judging distance improperly, or lacking punching effectiveness, which are the usual signs of a fighter who is affected by lack of good training. The film bears this out clearly.

When did Ali ever look better than he did in the first five rounds of the ‘71 Frazier fight? Produce the film where Ali ever looked better. Ali was sitting down on his punches and he never hit harder. The Ali of the second round was as dominant as I ever saw him. He had the stamina to fight 15 rounds and get up from one of the best left hooks in history in the final round. What Frazier brought to the table was enough to give any version of Ali hell just as he did in all of their actual fights. In Manila Ali survived a brutal body beating, although the skill level of the two men did not come close to that achieved by them in fight 1. In Manila they could hardly miss each other. But the prime Frazier of 71 was one of the greatest fighters who ever lived and he beat an Ali that night who would have beaten most of the other all time greats.

I hope you enjoy my Frazier video.

Final note: Some of you might not like the music, but it matches the rhythm of the video and the lyrics also apply. It may not be to your taste, its not my favorite either but I choose music based on what I'm trying to say or achieve in the video. If you don't like it just turn it down, but please don't turn it off as it adds to the desired effect. (It's not rap at least ha!)

-Monte Cox

[don1234]

Monte:
Joe Frazier was, and is, my favorite fighter. His career coincided with my boxing viewing maturation- always a big factor in bonding with a guy you've seen often.

I thought his style was 1) tailored to his physical stature- in short, go smaller, and 2) happened to be the perfect search & destroy style for his ultimate adversary, Ali. I think Joe, and Durham, were training for Ali even when he was stripped of his title and license. That fight seemed to be always on their ultimate horizon. What a waste if it had never come off. We got lucky. It happened 3 times.

Note: Monte, I don't know if you've followed the Poster Fight thread. In short, it's picking a fight that acts as a clinic on a fighter's style, by definition somewhat nullifying the opponent's efforts. Ali/Williams started the thread. What Frazier fight would you pick for his Poster Fight? Ellis-1 is in the running.

[HE Grant]

Monte, great job ... Frazier is highly underated here ... his chin, power and toughness greatly underated ... the man is top ten without question and would destroy many in head to head match ups ...

[10-8]

Monte, great job and a fitting tribute to one of my favourite heavyweights. The music was great. Better than Michael Jackson for Jack Johnson or Jim Croce for Jim Jeffries!

Agreed regarding how good Ali looked in the first 5 rounds. Ali was out to put hurt on Joe and get him out early something he didn't do often. Whether or not it was overconfidence on Ali's part and he under-estimated Joe, Ali didn't fight the first 5 like he expected a distance fight. I think a younger Ali would have fought Frazier with more movement more like he did in their second fight. Richard Pryor summed it up best imitating Ali fighting Frazier, "Get off me n*****!"

What is often lost in Joe's assesment is that he had a decent jab and right hand that he used against shorter guys like Quarry, or those that fought him at close quarters.

Quarry I, Ellis I, Foster and Ali I were vintage Joe. Quarry II was pretty damn impressive as well. Probably his best post championship performance.

Frazier-Holmes is a great fantasy match that I don't see Holmes winning despite being close to Ali in terms of style. Using your criteria of what it takes to beat Frazier, Holmes wasn't a clincher and I don't think he had the legs to move for very long. At some point Larry has to meet Joe in the trenches and will have to stand and trade and I think because of this Joe wears him down. It would be a great fight though. A real mesh of styles.

Your thoughts?

[PD99]

Ali did look great in the first 5 rds v Frazier I. Maybe just me, but Ellis looked similarly good against Frazier in the first few rds but of course Jimmy wasn't the boxer that Ali was nor did he have the inhuman resilience that Ali showed when Joe began to really smoke and get his own licks in as the fight wore on.

[Michael Frank]

Enjoyed the piece very much, Monte.

Three contrarian thoughts:

1) calling Frazier a "beast" is, IMO, unnecessary to make your point, and the last thing he needs, given the "Gorilla" remarks from Ali for a few years;
2) I don't see that punching down is so hard, esp. compared with punching up when at a height disadvantage. Punching down was no problem for Foreman in either Frazier fight and the Qawi bout, nor for Monzon, nor for Ray Robinson, nor Larry Holmes (against Marvis, among others) , nor Arguello, nor Sanchez (I know I'm naming some of the very best, but...) -- I think a comparatively short guy going lower is not doing something particularly hard for him. Like Dwight Qawi.
3) Ali WAS past his peak, which you (Monte) seem to agree with by saying he was "close to his prime." But he was close enough to his prime, and sharp enough that night, that Joe had to be great to win. Which he was that night. He certainly gets all credit from me for that fight.

As one who doesn't think Joe is top 10 all-time for reasons enumerated elsewhere on CBZ(I feel top 15, not 10), I still think he was magnificent on a night when Ali's opponent had to be. Ali came out blasting unlike in any fight he'd ever fought as a pro--he'd always feel a guy out for a couple rounds, but against his most dangerous foe, Frazier, Ali came out bombing and exposing himself to Frazier's punches.

[hagler04]

If you've ever boxed, you know that punching down on a lower moving target is very hard. Holmes beat his short opponents via straight punches from a distance, as fighters like Marvis or Ocasio didn't have the ability to bob/slip into the inside that Frazier did.

Even Foreman had to (ILEGALLY) shove Frazier off of him numerous times in order for him to establish distance.

[10-8]

Holmes beat his short opponents via straight punches from a distance, as fighters like Marvis or Ocasio didn't have the ability to bob/slip into the inside that Frazier did.

I'd also add that the only guy Larry fought in his best years (78-85) that was under 6' was Ocasio. Everyone else was taller than Frazier and none fought in the low bob and weave swarming style that Joe did. Larry never had to punch down like he would have had to against Frazier.

[hawk5ins]

And Holmes never defended anyone who fought out of a crouch either. The closest being Leon. But that was less of a crouch and more really just "frenetic energy".

It definitely is a wrinkle Larry was not used to facing in title fights during this timeframe.

While I would take Holmes in such a matchup, (with Frazier), Larry has all sorts of Hell with Joe.

Joe COULD Beat Larry IMO. I just would select the other way.

Hawk

[Monte Cox]

Calling Frazier a "Beast" has nothing to do with Ali's Gorilla remarks, which never entered my mind. Many tough swarmers are referred to as -fill in the bank- "a beast", such as John "The Beast" Mugabi. I have heard men like Dwight Braxton referred to as being "such a beast", etc. Frazier was the best of the lot in that sense.

[Monte Cox]

=double post

[Wing master]

As always, Another great video.
Thanks Monte

Wing master

[Mike DeLisa]

By the way -- I once took a film editor to count frame-by-frame and guess what? AND THIS IS FACT!

Joe Frazier's left hook was as fast as Ali's jab.

[Ron Lipton]

Gaaaaaaawd Damn,

That was a hot video, Stupendous!!!

That was cool!

Thanks,
Ron

[PeteLeo]

Joe sure did a number on Bob Foster, didn't he? Other heavies stopped Bobby, but I don't recall seeing anyone else just decimate him like that. Pete "I'm Back In Town" Leo.

[Mike DeLisa]

Take a look at last knockdown of Foster -- his leg folds under him -- he told me he broke his ankle.

[mike casey]

I remember seeing Joe knock out Foster at the Cobo Arena. It was an awesome performance. Bob had outlined his battle plan in the Ring beforehand and bragged that his uppercuts would take care of Frazier's oncoming rushes. A classic case of theory being crushed by harsh reality.

Incidentally, it is fascinating to see the evolution in Joe's style from around 1966 and the near disastrous first fight with Bonavena, to the much more mobile and evasive fighter he became. Against Oscar , Frazier was much more upright and vulnerable.

He was a great champion and one of my favourites in my teenage years.

[HE Grant]

The Frazier of 68 - 71 was an exceptional fighter ... see him against Chuvalo, Quarry, Mathis, Jones, Foster, Ellis and of course Ali .. he was murder .. even his Bonavena fights are often misleading ... the first time out Oscar was the far more experienced fighter, keeping in mind Frazier had only 11 fights at the time. Bonavena was a very tough style match up for Joe, a super strong, iron jawed, awkward slugger. Other than round two where Oscar stunned him and dropped him twice, Frazier really out slugged Oscar over most of the bout. As in their second fight, Frazier's superior conditioning and heart had him close out strong.

Frazier often gets a ridiculous rap about his ability to absorb punishment when in fact he was one of the toughest , most durable champions in history. Bonavena was a big time banger who had dropped the iron chinned Chuvalo. He rocked Joe but did not have him on Queer street in round two of bout one and never seriously hurt him again in 25 rounds of slugging. Ramos, a huge puncher, hit a prime Frazier with his best shot, flush and early, a punch so hard it nearly lifted Frazier off the floor. Frazier took it and came right back with thunder, stopping him in the next round. Foster, the hardest hitting light heavy ever did not make him blink ... he took the hardest shots of a prime Ali ...Then we have the first Foreman fight ...

Frazier was made for Foreman, plain and simply. Foreman was as murderous a puncher as any man that ever lived and dropped Frazier six times ... what is rarely commented on is that Joe got up six times...he did not go to sleep like Joe Louis to a much lighter hitting Schmeling or stopped after one huge shot like a Lennox Lewis ... Frazier kept getting up after getting blasted with murderous shots ...

Post Foreman he was never the same fighter. His vision was poor. The wear and tear of the most brutal style had taken it's toll .. he was far more hitable and if briefly stunned by a Bugner or Ali, he never fell and always came back fighting ....

I say the prime Frazier of 68 - 71 was an amazing fighter, an all time pound for pound great and an under rated legend !!!

[Ron Lipton]

The films truly do not show everything. I sat ringside with a longshoreman buddy for the Frazier v Bonavena I fight. He dropped Joe twice while we sat close at ringside.

I had seen all Oscar's fights at the Garden where he showed that big left hook, but this time he showed that right hand chop.
Each time Frazier got up when the world was young, and I never dreamed I would get to know him so good after that, his young eyes did not have a molecule of anything of a hurt fighter in his gaze.

It was one of those live boxing moments that stayed with me forever. I saw eagerness and hunger to get right back at Oscar glinting in his eyes both times and he did just that. The guy Bill with me said the same thing, he was overjoyed saying, "Look at this kid Ronnie, he is terrific, what heart," and he knew Frazier was going all the way.

Smoking Joe! Love him.

[HE Grant]

Ron exactly my point. Joe was dropped but bounced up clear headed and went on to out punch and out gut the more experienced fighter ... Frazier was a rare exception and highly underated ...

[Ted Spoon]

Nice video, Monte.

Certainly the Frazier of the first Ali fight was a different animal altogether; matured, charged and peaked in every way for his defining moment.

The effort he put into officially 'swatting the butterfly' effectively burnt him out. When asked years later about finishing Ali after the knockout down he said something to the effect of "Nah man, we were both dead".

Monumental effort by both men, but Frazier won the battle - his swarming began to cripple Ali's boxing space and then he just started taking lumps out of him, while walking through hell, until that 15th round deal sealer.

Frazier was the purest 'swarmer' at Heavyweight - Dempsey, Marciano and Tyson could all get cute and attack from some range - Frazier's method of attack was simple, effective, and repeated, repeated, and repeated until he 'got your heart'.

The 'Homicide Hank' analogy is a great one - very similar in their frequency of assaults and little jigs/mannerisms.

[Monte Cox]

By the way -- I once took a film editor to count frame-by-frame and guess what? AND THIS IS FACT!

Joe Frazier's left hook was as fast as Ali's jab.

That is now filed into my brain for future reference.

Thanks,
-M.

[hagler04]

The Frazier of 68 - 71 was an exceptional fighter ... see him against Chuvalo, Quarry, Mathis, Jones, Foster, Ellis and of course Ali .. he was murder .. even his Bonavena fights are often misleading ... the first time out Oscar was the far more experienced fighter, keeping in mind Frazier had only 11 fights at the time. Bonavena was a very tough style match up for Joe, a super strong, iron jawed, awkward slugger. Other than round two where Oscar stunned him and dropped him twice, Frazier really out slugged Oscar over most of the bout. As in their second fight, Frazier's superior conditioning and heart had him close out strong.

Frazier often gets a ridiculous rap about his ability to absorb punishment when in fact he was one of the toughest , most durable champions in history. Bonavena was a big time banger who had dropped the iron chinned Chuvalo. He rocked Joe but did not have him on Queer street in round two of bout one and never seriously hurt him again in 25 rounds of slugging. Ramos, a huge puncher, hit a prime Frazier with his best shot, flush and early, a punch so hard it nearly lifted Frazier off the floor. Frazier took it and came right back with thunder, stopping him in the next round. Foster, the hardest hitting light heavy ever did not make him blink ... he took the hardest shots of a prime Ali ...Then we have the first Foreman fight ...

Frazier was made for Foreman, plain and simply. Foreman was as murderous a puncher as any man that ever lived and dropped Frazier six times ... what is rarely commented on is that Joe got up six times...he did not go to sleep like Joe Louis to a much lighter hitting Schmeling or stopped after one huge shot like a Lennox Lewis ... Frazier kept getting up after getting blasted with murderous shots ...

Post Foreman he was never the same fighter. His vision was poor. The wear and tear of the most brutal style had taken it's toll .. he was far more hitable and if briefly stunned by a Bugner or Ali, he never fell and always came back fighting ....

I say the prime Frazier of 68 - 71 was an amazing fighter, an all time pound for pound great and an under rated legend !!!

Sorry, I don't want to nitpick, but Louis took 10 plus rounds of a shelllacking before he caved in to Schmeling (and he was never 'put to sleep'), and Max was certainly no light hitter.

[HE Grant]

He was never put to sleep? Maybe you should watch the end of that bout ... he was out cold flat on the canvas ...

[greek1237]

Still, Frazier only had 2 and 5 rounds vs Foreman, and yes he keep getting up both times. But I give Louis some slack in chin regards, yes its not as good as Frazier's(Imo) But Louis had to be beating down before taking the ten count. It was not like Schmeling landed 1 or 2 right hands and Louis was ko. It took 12 rounds of right hands for Louis to go down and out. Something Lewis didnt prove imo. Who took one good punch, and was ko.

[greek1237]

Still, Frazier only had 2 and 5 rounds vs Foreman, and yes he keep getting up both times. But I give Louis some slack in chin regards, yes its not as good as Frazier's(Imo) But Louis had to be beating down before taking the ten count. It was not like Schmeling landed 1 or 2 right hands and Louis was ko. It took 12 rounds of right hands for Louis to go down and out. Something Lewis didnt prove imo. Who took one good punch, and was ko.