Mike Tyson vs. Sonny Liston(both in their primes)

[Michael Frank]

Tyson might ultimately lose to Sonny Liston, and to Joe Louis, but I think he is being sold short here. He was far faster than both and had little trouble coping with jabs until the Buster Douglas fight, on a night so many on this site feel he came in unprepared. Louis was a guy who could be kayoed, as was done by Schmeling, and Tyson could knock opponents senseless and did so, consistently.

This notion of Tyson standing back with two feet together: true, but this was apprised by many of his opponents in advance -- and it didn't help them. Just one KO victim after another from 1985-1989. Tyson rarely lost A ROUND at that time.

Tyson inside was a lazy, holding fighter, I'd say, but . . . he proved against the strong Berbick that he can get it done inside. Like permanently.

Separately, JLP 6, I think Ali beats Louis fairly easily, just based on speed and movement--style overall. Liston? Don't know how he fares with Louis, but Louis was a far more proven commodity than Liston. And heck, I'm a Liston fan saying that.

I'll take Marciano over Liston, whether Liston has a pole-axe jab, a hard right, a fine chin, whatever. He wasn't the man Marciano was when it came to taking it, and take it he would with Rocky.

[Surf-Bat]

Michael Frank

I'll take Marciano over Liston, whether Liston has a pole-axe jab, a hard right, a fine chin, whatever. He wasn't the man Marciano was when it came to taking it, and take it he would with Rocky."

Yet Sonny fought the bigger punchers(Williams, DeJohn) and took all they had. I have to challenge you on this, MF. What Class-A punchers did Rocky face?

[SageBrush]

Hi JLP6 - Many thanks indeed for the Comp

I do try to reaveal my thought processes to enable wisehead posters to give me new angles where my assumptions i might be lacking, - but do cringe sometimes in saying in a thousand words what i could probably say succintly in 100 !

Oh Well, if i Get RSI i will consider it gained in a worthy cause

Kind Regards

Sage

[JLP 6]

Wow, I never thought of Liston Maricano.

Sagebrush, the complements are well deserved. I have informed you on more than occasion that I admire your writing stlye and the substance that you put into it. I and I am sure others appriecate your post as well. With that said I would be pleased to hear your thoughts on Liston-Maricano if you have not already posted it on some other thread.

Michael, we could not disagree more on the Louis-Ali bout. First, I want to square a few things with the Louis-Tyson comparision. Louis was KO'ed by Schmeling, Tyson was KO'ed by Douglas. Tyson was consistant at only one point in his career, the begining, Louis defended the title 25 time 22 by KO for 11 years. Tyson was faster than Liston. Louis, Tyson, and Ali are near equals in that deparment with Louis as the best puncher between the three.

Ali-Louis. Ali can be hit. Louis can be hurt. But, if Louis can get to Ali, Ali can be KO'ed by Louis. Conn danced and won rounds and got KO'ed brutally for his trouble. I doubt this will happen to Ali but, Ali is not like Conn who was a skilled boxer. Ali was improv at it's best, but still limited in defense, power, and punching in the clinches. Joe Louis not Foreman. Louis was smart and accurate.

When I think of the how the fight might go I think of the rounds the Pryor danced and landed punches on Arguello, Pryor being Ali danced and landed but occasionally got hit with big shots. This could posibly hurt my arguement except that p4p Ali is not Pyror in the power department and p4p Arguello is not Louis in the speed or power department. A few shots from Louis could end the day, especially one like Arguello landed in the 11th.

Maricano-Liston....Maricano's determination always amazed me. Liston is fierce man. Stlye wise Liston has it in spades. Jab, skill, power, maybe speed. I think that Maricano will crouch low enough to get inside and make it good, but Liston will wear him down with just overall strength and start to find a home for short punches.

They could take their toll on Rocky. Give me Liston on points. A return bout I could see Rocky making adjustments and winning with a paced flashflood attack.

[Michael Frank]

Michael Frank

I'll take Marciano over Liston, whether Liston has a pole-axe jab, a hard right, a fine chin, whatever. He wasn't the man Marciano was when it came to taking it, and take it he would with Rocky."

Yet Sonny fought the bigger punchers(Williams, DeJohn) and took all they had. I have to challenge you on this, MF. What Class-A punchers did Rocky face?

Hi Surf-Bat,

I'm looking at Liston in total, and he sure didn't take it well from (non-great-puncher) Ali in either fight. Nor from Leotis Martin. Now these were all toward the end for him, but the chin should not deteriorate so dramatically. Nor do I think Williams and DeJohn were great fighters. I'm not even knocking Sonny's chin, just am confident Rocky would out-work him.

As to Rocky's comp, they were smaller guys but light-heavy Moore was the only guy ever to deck him, and he got up to win by KO. More importantly, Rocky's nose was an opened, bloody horror in the Charles fight but he fought through it and won. Whereas Liston showed several times he had some dog in him and I feel would have quit under the same circumstances.

I'd agree that on paper, Liston sure appeared to have what it took to beat Marciano. But I hearken back to my old man, and his father, who'd say "if you saw Marciano fight, you'd never bet on any other man against him." (Though both had seen Liston, Ali, Foreman, et. al.)

Not very analytical, that last comment, but it is additive to my previous ones.

[Michael Frank]

JLP 6,

Fine points you made. I will forego answering them here due to time constraints and also the fact that these fights already have been analyzed on threads devoted exclusively to them.

I had made my "Ali beats Louis" comment as sort of a given, but am not up to defending it at this moment. I would address one comment of yours though: "But, if Louis can get to Ali, Ali can be KO'ed by Louis.

My reply: that's a big, big "IF" that Louis gets to the 1967 Ali, who could and did move all night. Also, as to the 2nd part of the sentence, there's nothing in Ali's history (until he was 38 and on diarrhetics vs. Holmes) that showed he could be kayoed by ANYBODY.

I'd only agree with a premise such as, "If anyone COULD KO Ali, then it would be Louis." But, that's a big "IF" and "COULD."

Cheers.

[JLP 6]

I cannot remember the name of the Englishman who decked Ali early in his career but alot has been made about Ali's corner making noise about a split glove and probably saving Ali from a loss, maybe KO.

German southpaw Karl Mecklenburg or something that Ali fought as a fresh champion gave Ali a few good wacks. I don't know if Ali was playing in there when he got caught but, he seemed to "feel" those shots and when on ahead handled business shortly there after.

Ali in his entire career greats but also he has been in with hacks who Louis would have smashed and Ali sometimes fought down to the level of his opponents. Ali in his best wins are not impressive. Liston quit twice and the first fight was not a beatdown although Liston was deffinatley taking it, right before the end.

Foreman fight was horrible, rope-a-dope my foot. Ali of '67 would have never stood there and taken a lathering he would have moved. Ali in that fight had not choice but to take it, thanks to the ropes and Foreman's lunacy Ali pulled through. The only real impressive win is the "Thrilla", for every reason except for skill and domination. Louis dominated lesser and equal fighters. KO Walcott is still amazing at that point in his career is still amazing.

My point is that these two bring nothing and I mean nothing that Louis couldn't bring and then some. The "IF or COULD-like" statement is your from an earlier post "I THINK that Ali beats Louis farely easy ". Come on now Michael.

Whenever you can respond and thanks for your reponse.

[Michael Frank]

JLP,

Clay was assuredly nailed by Henry Cooper in that 1963 fight, and was hurt big time. But he got up and won by stoppage. I would bet Louis would have gone down from that piledriver as well. Mildenburger hit Ali more than he had been used to being hit, but Ali stopped him, too.

That Ali beat some lesser fighters is a point I don't see the rationale behind; he beat the best crop of heavies, ever, over 2 decades. Whereas Louis was the one with the "bum-of-the-month" club-- though personally, I'd agree he beat many fine fighters as well.

Louis brings much more than Foreman and Frazier (or Liston??)? How MUCH more exactly . . . ?? I could see Louis losing to either George or Smokin' Joe. How about Liston, Norton, Shavers, Lyle, Ellis, Chuvalo, Patterson, Quarry, Foster, Terrell, Folley, Bugner, Young, Spinks, etc. etc. among the Ali opponents? You aren't arguing that Louis beat better fighters, are you?

If you think Ali's surprise victory over the undefeated and dominant killer Foreman was not impressive, we have little to relate to one another with. We're clearly on different planes here.

Why I think Ali beats Joe Louis fairly easily? To repeat, styles. Ali was a bigger, faster, better stylist than Conn with a much better chin. Joe can't just nail Ali--who can take one shot from anyone--he has to nail him again and again. I'm not so sure Ali stands there like Conn or Schmeling and lets that happen; he was too rugged to be frozen in place, immovable, by one great shot. He would have moved. I see Ali doing a rat-tat-tat on Joe's kisser for 15 rounds.

Hey, no disrespect to Louis, just the modern athlete over the earlier generation athlete (a rare call by me), who himself had toughness and a KO blow, but not Ali's brains, speed (of hand and foot), or movement.

In a he-man slugfest with no implementation of defense, then I'd favor Louis over Ali.

[JLP 6]

"Clearly on different planes." I guess I agree, but without the insulting tone you put forth, and I apologise if I am giving off the, know it all vibe.

Now then, Henry Cooper was a lesser fighter and so way Meckenburg and they got to Ali. Cooper dropped him. If Cooper were Louis Ali does not get up.

Louis KO's all mentioned. Frazier will be bobbing and weaving into a pin point puncher. Foreman takes to long to get those bombs home and has no unbrella when the rain start to pour.

Conn did not just stand there for if he had the fight would have been over first round. Conn moved, stopped for a sec to look and game over. Another title defense. Bigger than Conn makes him a bigger target, faster....OK it's not Conn was slow or it not like Louis was slow either.

Foreman, KO'ed in 7 or 8 rounds. From a few punches. The man was tired. He beat himself and Ali finished the job. Job well done but standing against to ropes taking rounds from one the hardest punchers of all-time was not smart.

While we are on ring smarts. What is up with Ali's lack of defense and body-punching? He didn't need it? Might have help to learn those things? Would you teach your son who does not have Ali's natural talent to lean back from punches, dance with his hands down. Are not these the reason that nearly crude fighter with good power but not Louis power gave Ali so much trouble. Could not he have avoided all this had he learn he simple basics?

He was not smarter than Louis in the ring. Louis was picture perfect. Hands, balance, timing, defense, power, boxing and meanness.

[Michael Frank]

"Clearly on different planes." I guess I agree, but without the insulting tone you put forth, and I apologise if I am giving off the, know it all vibe.

He was not smarter than Louis in the ring. Louis was picture perfect. Hands, balance, timing, defense, power, boxing and meanness.

Hey, JLP 6--

NO insult of any kind was intended or implied. Sorry if it came out that way.

As to your final comment above, well, I saw a Louis who trudged like a snail after some opponents. Who stood rigid stiff at times, he and the other guy posing before someone lashed out. Whereas Ali would have been moving all night, never caught in a pose-off.

As to Ali's not being a body-puncher, no, I wouldn't teach a fighter to ignore the body. But, he was a helluva fighter even without that, wasn't he? He beat ALL styles and sizes. Might have been a scary beast with body punching part of the arsenal, too.

Bigger = bigger target? I don't think this washes in boxing. Any fighter is a good-sized target.

I don't think Joe's timing, defense, or "boxing" were any better than Ali's. "Meanness"? Didn't think either was truly mean, but both were closers, baby. Joe KO'd most opponents, and Ali KO'd nearly all "big fight" opponents.

Maybe we should just "agree to disagree"? Both were outstanding, both were in the top 2 alltime (methinks), and our disagreement is more on their individual traits. And I think that one we won't come to agreement on.

[robertk]

I'd like to hear from Ron Lipton and his take on this matchup. He certainly knows both guys & would have an interesting perspective.

[mike casey]

First off, I don't buy the theory that Liston would have intimidated Tyson. Secondly, if we are talking about the prime Tyson, I think he would have torn Liston apart very quickly. THAT Tyson was on his way to becoming one of the greatest heavyweight champions ever before he went off the rails. He would have given the slow-starting Joe Louis hell.

Liston - even at his best - was nowhere near Joltin' Joe's class. Sonny was as one-track as a train - Machen beat him in Seattle if you watch the whole film , and that was the tip-off that Clay would beat Liston if Cass had the courage to follow it through.

Sonny had a lot going for him, don't get me wrong - but he trained poorly (even for the first Patterson fight) and was the classic bully. Tyson, when mentally wrecked, at least continued to fight against Holyfield.

Liston, at Miami, was a disgrace - he couldn't cut it and quit - simple as that. Then he assumed 'legend' status by knocking out a bunch of hand-picked opponents from 65-70.

I give Sonny every credit for standing up to the thunderous shots of Cleveland Williams in two of the greatest slugfests ever. But Liston was meeting a like-minded spirit in Cleve. Tyson would have been hittiong him from every angle, and Sonny didn't care for anything that strayed off the straight and narrow.

[hawk5ins]

I got to hear your scorecard (who won what round) in the Liston Machen Fight.

I didn't think it was even close. I had Liston by at LEAST 8 points in that fight.

When you get a chance.

Thanks.

Hawk

[mike casey]

Machen, 118-116, for what it's worth - judging by the system of that time.

I might be wrong - I just cannot comprehend the fascinatiuon with Liston as an underrated great. Against Marciano - as an example - Liston would have lost all interest and desire if he hadn't dropperd the hammer on Rocky by about the third or fourth.

[hawk5ins]

I know it was a rounds system when they fought (Liston and Machen).

I was wondering what rounds you gave each fighter.

I know I just said 8 points, whihc translates to 10 rounds Liston and 2 Machen, and I want to correct that. I had it 8 rounds Liston, 4 rounds Machen, whihc makes it a difference of 4 rounds or 4 points.

I was wondering if you still had your score card from that bout and if you wouldn;t mind sharing whihc rounds you gave each fighter.

Hawk

[Michael Frank]

I give Sonny every credit for standing up to the thunderous shots of Cleveland Williams in two of the greatest slugfests ever.

Mike,

Don't disagree with the rest of your post, but Liston-Williams II wasn't one of the great slugfests, and it was a rather quick fight. It was over in 2 rounds and Williams was the guy who went down before he was eventually stopped.

[wpink]

I agree with M Frank. Not sure who would win, but we do know Liston had issues with Ali's speed, and got stopped early in the 2nd fight. Now I do know many doubt the integrity of that shot (so do I), however Ali did not hit like Tyson did.

We also know that for 3-4 rounds, Liston is going to get hit, fast and hard. If he can handle what Tyson handles, then I go with Liston, as his jab, power, and ability to bang harder longer would benefit him as the rounds progress.

Finally, Ali was able to completely zap the mental toughness out of Liston, during the 1st and 2nd fight. I think Ali would do the same too Tyson, but what would happen when Liston and Tyson met. Who would be the stronger mentally, who would take the backwards step. I dont know, but I still go with Tyson Early, or Liston Late.

[robertk]

Of course Liston had trouble with the speed of Ali. Who wouldn't? Do you think if Tyson was an old man--like Liston was--and he was facing a 22 year old Ali that there wouldn't be a huge gap in speed?
The other consideration is Liston even signing to fight the guy in the first place. I'm certain if Liston would've had a top notch corner and manager, the last guy they sign to fight is Ali. Liston could've fought other guys and milked that title for awhile and not faced Ali for 2 or 3 more years. He didn't do that & managed to string together a pretty good winning streak > suffering 2 ko's. Lots of heavyweights don't come back from 2 consecutive ko losses, especially when they are old.

[JLP 6]

Satifactory conclusion Michael. Your answers and reasoning were both outstanding. As far as my arguement are concerned, they are based on my admiration of Louis' boxing ability, power, class, and longevity. Ali was not my stlye of fighter, none the less a All-time Great fighter and, deservedly on the top of most heavyweight list.

Furthermore, it was great talking with you. I will be looking forward to reading your post and engaging them as well.

See you in the trenches!

[Michael Frank]

Same here, JLP. It's been fun.

As to Ali not being your style of fighter, I can see why. Though I always felt fighters like Ali and Ray Leonard were not "runners" as are some of today's "stylists." The former two punched off of the movement, were clearly offensive and not just defensive while circling.

They never turned their backs on anyone to run away, which I've seen Pea, PBF, and others do, unfortunately.