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Thread: Renaldo Snipes came this close

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    Renaldo Snipes came this close

    Renaldo Snipes Came This Close

    By Robert Mladinich

    As far as former heavyweight contender Renaldo Snipes, who was born, raised and still lives in Yonkers, New York, is concerned, he was the heavyweight champion of the world for all of four seconds. Although he was an overwhelming underdog, he knocked WBC heavyweight champion Larry Holmes to the canvas with a perfectly timed right hand in Pittsburgh in November 1981.

    Holmes, who never knew what hit him, laboriously rose to his feet and miraculously continued. He later stopped the more inexperienced Snipes in the 11th round. To this day, however, Snipes, and others, insist that Holmes received the benefit of a long count and that Snipes should have been declared the new champion.

    “It only takes 10 seconds to win a title, but it took Larry 14 seconds to keep it,” said Snipes. “I walked out of that ring with my head high and my pride intact. Maybe it was a blessing in disguise. Not winning the title might have kept me grounded. I’ve always surrounded myself with well-rounded people. Hopefully they wouldn’t have let the victory go to my head. But you never know.”

    To this day Snipes is asked about that fight, wherever he goes. He doesn’t mind answering the questions because he realizes how close he came to changing the course of history. Holmes is, of course, one of the most respected heavyweight champions of all time.

    “I can’t get caught up with all that hype,” said Snipes. “I fought a lot of champions and all those fights were important. My fight with Gerrie Coetzee was controversial because he was from South Africa, had come to my hometown (actually nearby Tarrytown), and a lot of people thought he beat me. Then I beat Trevor Berbick when he was the number one contender. That was a big fight for me. I don’t know if I set a record, but I fought a lot of world champions and held my own against them all.”

    In compiling a record of 39-8-1 (22 KOs) between 1978-93, Snipes, who will turn 49 on August 15, beat such championship caliber opponents as Eddie Mustafa Muhammad (W 10), Coetzee (W 10), and Berbick (W 10). Besides losing to Holmes, he lost on points to onetime titlists Tim Witherspoon, Greg Page, Ricky Parkey and Orlin Norris. He donated his entire purse from the Parkey fight to the St. Jude’s Children’s Center in Memphis.

    “I don’t think anyone can say I ducked anybody,” said Snipes, who never married and has no children. “That’s why I’m so happy and proud of my career. Even though I was in a lot of wars, I can still carry on an intelligent conversation. I was always in superb condition, which definitely helped.”

    Not only is Snipes intellectually sound, his body is still hard and muscular and his face is relatively unmarked. He seems to have an inner peace about him, even though life has been far from perfect for him since he retired from the ring after a November 1993 tenth-round TKO loss to Jorge Luis Gonzalez.

    He was fired from his job with the New York City Housing Authority, where he worked as a community coordinator. Snipes says that “petty politics” was involved, but his employer charged him with insubordination and failing to show up for work. He was also lambasted by the New York press for appearing at a trial for the late gangster John Gotti Sr. The press inferred that Snipes, who looks a lot gentler than he does mean, was there to intimidate the jury pool.

    “I never threatened anyone in pro boxing, and that was how I made my living,” said Snipes incredulously. “Why would I do it in the courtroom where people knew who I was? John Gotti was a big boxing fan and a big fan of mine. I got to know his whole family over the years, from them coming to my fights. I found him to be a gentleman and he treated me like a gentleman.”

    Snipes was also good friends with Mickey Mantle, another man he met through boxing. It was Mantle who introduced him to what is now his favorite drink, a Vodka martini. He also met five United States presidents, none of which would have happened if he wasn’t involved in boxing or if he was involved in less than altruistic endeavors.

    “Boxing is only part of who I am,” said Snipes. “I’m a good person who likes to help people and help society. If you show me love and respect, you’ll get it right back. What I used to do for the city – help kids get their GEDs, counsel them on jobs, and help them with their problems – I’m doing that now except I don’t get paid for it. After the 9/11 attack, I was at Ground Zero for six months helping out on the pile. I’m not bitter about anything that happened. I’m happy about life. I might not have won the heavyweight championship of the world, but I feel like a champion and a lot of people make me feel that way too.”

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    Left out of this article

    Is the fact that Holmes absolutely kicked the ever living shit out of Snipes for the remainder of that 7th round.

    Holmes, who never knew what hit him, laboriously rose to his feet and miraculously continued. He later stopped the more inexperienced Snipes in the 11th round. To this day, however, Snipes, and others, insist that Holmes received the benefit of a long count and that Snipes should have been declared the new champion.

    “It only takes 10 seconds to win a title, but it took Larry 14 seconds to keep it,” said Snipes.


    There was no long count. The bout is on Youtube and anyone can view it.

    Holmes was up at about 3, rammed into the turnbuckle immediately, and Rudy Ortega picked up the count at about 5 or 6. You watch the REAL TIME seconds that tick off on the counter below the film on Youtube and it falls right in line.

    Holmes was waived back in to fight at the count of 9 and he was on his feet at the count of 6.

    I realize this was a Renaldo Snipes interview and hyperbole and exxageration are common place for a fighter when talking about his career highlight, but this was not even CLOSE to 14 seconds and I don't ever recall any post fight article stating Holmes benefitted from a long count.

    Nearly Got KO'd, Yes. Got by on a long count? Nope. YouTube, clearly shows that is not the case.

    Hawk

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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    Stop 'Dempseying' Holmes, Hawk!!

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    Yeah

    But we gots the film to prove/disprove it!

    Dempsey's "shrouded" in mystery, becuase Folks forgot to bring their camera phones to his bouts on the Hobo Circuit!

    Hawk

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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    I am 100% in agreement with Hawk. Snipes hit him with a hard punch that stunned Holmes and he was a little off balance so he went down. For a moment there it looked like Snipes was suddenly in the game but Holmes like the true champ he was gathered himself and by the end of the round was beating on Snipes again.

    I disagree however that Holmes was nearly KO'd. Stunned momentarily yes. But like I said a true champ gets up, recovers and soldiers on. That's what Holmes did. As to the "long count" the majority of boxing fans seem to believe that after 10 seconds you should automatically be out.

    That's not the way it works. It's the COUNT of 10, not 10 seconds necessarilly as we've seen so many times. I'd like Ron Lipton's take on this.

    EMF

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    Re: Yeah

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    But we gots the film to prove/disprove it!

    Dempsey's "shrouded" in mystery, becuase Folks forgot to bring their camera phones to his bouts on the Hobo Circuit!

    Hawk
    No one was going after Lah-ree though Hawk. "Jeez, can't anyone say anything about Larry which is not bowing in admiration without Holmesites going bananas."

    As for film? BAH! Give me Abe Simpson type stories any day!!

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    EMF

    I also agree that Holmes was not "almost Ko'd".

    I'm totally with you on that.

    The only thing was was conceding is that there were writers who DID feel that Holmes was almost KO'd in that 7th round and reported it as such.

    I have not ever read previously, any post fight reports that Holmes's title was saved with a "Long Count".

    Just wanted to clarify that.

    Hawk

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    Oh, I hear you Sharks.

    That was more a "pre-emptive" Strike than anything else.

    I've been around. I knew what was coming.

    AND, I see dead people.

    ".....We tied and Onion to our belt, whihc was the style at the time..."

    Hawk

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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    Gee, if getting dropped flat as a pancake by one punch, staggering up, and then ramming your head into a turnbuckle because your brain can't tell which species of animal you belong to isn't "almost KO'd," I have to wonder what on God's green Earth does qualify for that description? Having your nose driven through the back of your brain and arising from the canvas only upon being struck by lightning (indoors)?

    Come on, guys, praise Holmes for his guts and quick recovery, use a stopwatch to time his vacation on the canvas, but don't deny that the man was rocketed into another galaxy located just a yard or two from Knocked the Fuck Out Territory.

    Personally, I still think that Snipes was receiving karmic payback for having been the beneficiary of one of the worst decisions in the history of the sport in his fight immediately prior to the shot at Holmes (Coetzee). PeteLeo.

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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    Holmes to me indeed NEARLY GOT KO'D. But nearly is a helluva qualifier. Getting dropped like you've been shot is what I saw, and while he may have been off-balance it was no balance issue that, had it been rectified, saves Larry from going down.

    Long count though I don't see at all. Snipes was no Dempsey (smirk) anyway, and Larry wasn't to us dazed but to him calmly settin' on the resin, to the gentle viewer rolling the dice all the while with the certain awareness he would get 13 seconds to arise like Humble Gene. He did the opposite, got up, almost got Hacksawed Duggan'd by the 2X4 that was the corner buckle, and recovered, Tony Zale-like.

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    HA!

    Nice one Pete.

    I think Holmes' balance was out of whack, when he tried to rise as opposed to the reason he fell. Snipes Right hand made him fall.

    I also beleive Holmes's awkward fall, was becuase he was trying to stay standing. He didn't drop like a sack like he did agianst Shavers.

    Holmes said he didn't FEEL hurt when he went down agianst Snipes and tried to get up too quickly and his legs weren't there yet. Thus, the Hamed like Turn buckle headbutt.

    He was up STRAIGHT by the count of 5 or 6 and showed little effect for the remainder of the round.

    Now this all said, will I argue too hard that he WASN'T almost KO'd? No I won't. Becuase quite Frankly, WHEN it was happening LIVE, I was scared SHITLESS when this all happened.

    In subsequent viewings, I wasn't so alarmed, because I knew what was coming: Holmes beating the piss out of Snipes for the rest of the round.

    So Anyone who wrote a post fight article saying Holmes ALMOST got KTFO agianst Snipes in the 7th, I won't say they were at ALL out of line.

    I may disagree, with the benefit of having watched the bout probably 50 times since. But AT THE TIME, AT THAT MOMENT, I too thought Holmes was GONE.

    It's nice to wrong every now and then!

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 06-12-2008 at 12:19 PM.

  12. #12
    mike
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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    i sparred with snipes a couple of times--as far as the fight--snipes got lucky but did holmes really feel that one--snipes almost won--but i havent seen it since it occurred.

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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    This is a rare treat--

    Mike, can you elaborate and go into plenty of detail on your sparring with Renaldo Snipes? Would love to hear it.

    Sounds great!

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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    Enjoyed the article and great to hear that Renaldo is well.

    As to the fight, Holmes got hurt worse than he'd ever been hurt by anyone until Tyson. No one falls into a ring post like that and is even close to o.k. But his recovery was fast, and complete. Having survived the A-bomb, he won every other part of that round before and after, and every part of every other round of that fight.

    Had Snipes not separated Larry from his senses--as he indeed did--for a few seconds, that fight was a complete, one-way Holmes easy victory on points, had it not been stopped. Renaldo was otherwise never in the fight.

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    I always thought that

    if a man is knocked down from a solid flush shot; he is knocked out temporarily.
    Holmes was clearly dazed and temporarily out of it; but fought back valiantly

    Almost KO'd?
    Certainly...

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    I personally think it's

    An IS or ISN'T proposition.

    Knocked Down, does not IMO, mean Knocked out temporarily.

    Knocked out, means you did not beat the ref's count of 10.

    That did not happen in the Holmes Snipes fight. ANd in fact, it wasn't even Close. Holmes was up and responsive before a complete 10 count could be administered. ANd was in the same state prior to 10 SECONDS being rattled off. Literally, Figuratively, Officially. Holmes beat the count.

    Temporarily KO'd, is akin to being "Almost" a Virgin.

    It's an all or none thing.

    Hawk

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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    Almost knocked out; knocked out temporarily--whatever. Holmes was up within the count and went on to win the fight.

    I actually kind of like Snipes and don't have any problem with him spinning the story the way he wants to spin it. That's human nature. Of course, I also don't feel obligated to agree with his version of events.

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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gunter
    I actually kind of like Snipes and don't have any problem with him spinning the story the way he wants to spin it. That's human nature. Of course, I also don't feel obligated to agree with his version of events.
    Agree completely, Dan. It was his moment in the sun and I'm glad for him.

    Sad part for him is that the video is there for all to see the truth and the exaggeration of his claim.

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    I don't have any issues

    With an exxageration either.

    Just so long as it doesn't gain any traction!

    The first time I hear: "And another thing, The Holmes Snipes Long Count was 10 times worse than the Tunney Dempsey Long Count!" I will re-jump back on my soap box and remind Sharkey why I was on this like White on Rice, on this day, the 12th of June, 2008.

    Hawk

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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    Fighters say its the big punch that lands that they dont feel is the devasting one.
    IMOP the big John Wayne haymaker Snipes landed on Holmes looked more powerful then the one Shavers landed on Holmes.
    So if Holmes says the punch by Shavers hurt more maybe thats saying something.

  21. #21
    mike
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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    Quote Originally Posted by Overhand_Right
    This is a rare treat--

    Mike, can you elaborate and go into plenty of detail on your sparring with Renaldo Snipes? Would love to hear it.

    Sounds great!
    overhand right- i would like to go into in detail but it was for two rounds one ,on one day one on another. i was 145 and he was desperate for anyone to throw punches at thim , and i knew i was in for another beating just depending on him how severe . even though he took it easy, i was dazed often-i was agressive only because i had no footwrk so i went all out all the time -- i wished i had footwork.he was better than most main eventers due to his good speed and chin. he was not immobile as alot of the big guys were and faster than alot of them,plus he came to fight. he was akward- and that made him dangerous as he would try to level you with his right. he had good power- not great power. i felt sure holmes would murder renaldo, which he eventually did- but you never know what will happen when a good puncher goes for broke. he iwas a good guy and even when an annoying mosqiuote like me after he showed who is boss- took it easy as he could. his usual sparring partners showed up most of the time and i was never asked again. good guy and a pretty good and dangerous heavyweight.
    Last edited by mike; 06-15-2008 at 03:12 PM.

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    WHat Holmes said

    In comparing the Shavers and Snipes Knockdowns, was that he saw "lightning Flash" In the Shavers drop. SOmething he said he never expericenced before or after against Anyone.

    Against Snipes, he stated it was a good punch and he felt it, but that it didn't exactly hurt him. He popped on up Immediately after trying to break his fall from even going down. But when he rushed up, His legs were just not there yet and he lurched forward and hit the turnbuckle.

    He was was standing on two feet taking the count by 5 or 6.

    Holmes stated he was fully aware of what was going on in the SNipes drop. Not so with Shavers.

    Hawk

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    WHat Holmes said

    In comparing the Shavers and Snipes Knockdowns, was that he saw "lightning Flash" In the Shavers drop. SOmething he said he never expericenced before or after against Anyone.

    Against Snipes, he stated it was a good punch and he felt it, but that it didn't exactly hurt him. He popped on up Immediately after trying to break his fall from even going down. But when he rushed up, His legs were just not there yet and he lurched forward and hit the turnbuckle.

    He was was standing on two feet taking the count by 5 or 6.

    Holmes stated he was fully aware of what was going on in the SNipes drop. Not so with Shavers.

    Hawk

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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    Don't just look at the replay with cold objective hindsight. Those who saw it live as I did will never forget the shocking sight of not only the wobble down to the deck, but also the crazy turnbuckle smash. We didn't know what would happen next! Most of us thought for sure Snipes would be champ - what great television! It's easy now to talk about Holmes' comparison of the Shaver's knockdown (Holmes likes Shavers but dislikes Snipes so I don't give it much credance), or otherwise downplay the power of the punch.

    Yes, the video diminishes the exaggeration that might otherwise make it legendary, but it also captures one of the most SPECTACULAR crowd reactions EVER punctuated by Cosell's yelling. The Sports Illustrated pic showing Holmes finding a 'friend' in the ringpost also showed some very stunned fans!

    No, Snipes didn't come so close after all, especially seeing how many punches TYSON had to land to finally put him away when he was much older. But I hope those of us old enough to remember the time can at least agree it was an unforgettable and exciting moment in modern boxing history and is certain worthy of a good, lively message thread!

    And yes, it was proof of Holmes' greatness and heart of a champion to take command like that in the same round let alone thoroughly dominate the fight.
    Last edited by sandpeat; 06-16-2008 at 11:26 PM.

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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    I've spoken with Larry about this several times and he says that nothing was like the Shaver's knockdown and that he gets flashbacks to it to this day ... the Snipes knockdown and those years later to Tyson were legit but he said none hurt close to the same, instead they knocked his balance off more than caused pain ... the obvious difference being a young , prime Tyson was able to capitalize on this against an old, rusty Holmes while a less polished Snipes was not against a near prime Holmes ...

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    Sandpeat

    I actually am using both my memory and the words of how Larry described the two knockdowns with Shavers and Snipes.

    Yes, when I saw the SNipes knockdown live, as I stated previously in an earlier post, I was scared shitless for Holmes. With the benefit of knowing what would happen following the knockdown, when watching the replays, KNOWING Holmes was going to kick the snot out of him for the remainder of the round, it doesn't seem anymore like a "holy shit Holmes escaped that one BIG TIME" moment.

    I watch the Shavers knockdown and I still TODAY, marvel at Holmes being able to get up from that shot.

    For all Intents and Purposes, he should not have been able to, if you consider HOW Hard Shavers punches, HOW Clean that punch landed and HOW Hard Holmes hit the canvas.

    That still amazes me.

    Hawk

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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    Hell yes he was almost knocked out. That was one of the most brutal perfectly timed and landed rights I've ever seen. And wow does Larry Holmes have one of the best chins and recuperative abilities EVER? YES!!! When HOlmes got up, he pulled a Zab Judah, stumbled badly. If certain referees today had been in that ring, when Larry staggered and fell into the ring post, they would have immediately stopped it. And that would have been a sad travesty, because I do not believe a ref should stop a fight just because a fighter gets up and falls down or staggers again. He should always get the benefit of ten seconds. But let's face it, if the ring hadn't been there to stop and hold him up, Larry would have fallen down a second time. Kudos to him for his timely recovery, valiantly fighting back very quickly, and to the referee for allowing it to continue, as he should have.

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    Adam

    It's probably Semantics here, but Where I disagree with this is that I view almost getting Knocked out as getting bady hurt and the ref being on the verge of stopping the fight or getting knocked down and barely beating the count.

    Even with Holmes's Head butt into the turn buckle, he still was on his feet taking Ortega's count by the count of 5 or 6. Snipes' "moment" evaporated when Ortega reached 9 and waved the fighters together.

    To Sandpeat's point earlier, YES, at the time, I thought Holmes might be knocked out, the way he went down and when he rammed into the turn buckle.

    AT THE TIME, I was scared shitless.

    Hawk

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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    Holmes was every bit as bad if not worse than Lennox Lewis was when he was TKO'd by McCall, so a very strong case can be made that under different circumstances Snipes could have been awarded a TKO win.

    Also, had Holmes not been so close to the turnbuckle he headbutted (ie: a different location in the ring) he very well could have done a face plant back onto the canvas, or worse right out of the ring.

    All moot points however. Holmes got up and stopped Snipes, however you could make a case that it was stopped too early. That premature stoppage lead to the chants of "bullshit" as well as the afterfight scrap that saw Snipes cut his forearm on a pair of scissors.

    Kudos to Snipes for putting up a good fight and providing some high drama. After watching him against Cummings, Muhammad, Witherspoon and Coetzee, I was surprised to see him last 3 rounds.

    I never regarded Snipes as much of a fighter with the Holmes and Berbick fights being the only exceptions.

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    Re: Renaldo Snipes came this close

    Holmes beat Snipes up for every minute of their fight except the 10-15 seconds around the knockdown. However, Holmes was as hurt as they come, BUT he did recuperate VERY fast and was back to laying it into Snipes for the remainder of the round.

    Had Larry Hazzard of the Saad Muhammad-Jerry Martin fight, or Joey Curtis of the Dokes-Weaver #1 bout, been refereeing, Larry loses by TKO to Snipes. Which would have been all wrong.

    Funny, with as much as has been made of Holmes's knockdown by Shavers, I recall that it was unclear just WHERE on Larry's body the "all-powerful" blow actually landed. It took a few replays from different angles to determine this, if memory serves me correctly.

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