Renaldo Snipes came this close

[hawk5ins]

I think if Holmes had staggered towards Ref Rudy Ortega, during the count from 6 to 9, Ortega, could very well have acted in the manner that Garcia acted when Lewis was on unsteady feet and practically falling into the Ref.

But Lar was on Steady feet, right after the turn buckle head butt, almost immediately, with clear eyes.

As far as the stoppage, COULD the ref allowed it go on a for a few more punches? Sure. But Snipes was OUT of it and not punching back what so ever.

I think the crowd reacted as Snipes did, when he snapped out of it, when the ref stopped it: C'mon, Let it go.

But Letting it go, simply results in Snipes getting hammered on.

Renaldo had the opportunity to continue hammering on Larry, when HE rose in the 7th. But he ended up getting his own ass kicked instead.

THere was NO turn around in sight in the 11th round. Holmes was not tired or hurt or slowing down. He would have simply sustained what he was doing when Ortega stepped in. And that would only have gotten Snipes.....More knocked out.

Hawk

[10-8]

Hawk watch the stoppage again, put all biases aside and you tell me honestly if an impending KO was a mere formality.

Holmes caught him a solid right which stunned Snipes but Larry's accuracy was off and he didn't connect with anything of note and Snipes was reacting defensively.

Snipes started the round quick had good snap in his punches and bounce in his legs. He was far from a beaten man, although he was obviously trailing in points.

Watching it just now I think it was premature. Anything else is pure speculation.

[hawk5ins]

Snipes was hurt and not untill Ortega stepped in did the hurt and "out of it" expression on his face alter. It then became: "What? What do you mean?"

Larry may have missed with a few of his shots, but again, he wasn't tiring or slowing down. Snipes was not returning fire what so ever.

I don't see Holmes letting up. My guess is he continues the assault and either Snipes goes down or the lack of return from Renaldo forces the ref to intervene.

Snipes was INDEED hurt and Holmes was laying on the leather. THere is nothing in that sequence from when he was hurt to when the ref waived it off, that tells me, Snipes does a 180 and gets out of that jam.

Hwk

[10-8]

I'm taking the stoppage at face value, looking at the buildup and not factoring in the Nostradamus principles of probably woulda could mighta.

The whole sequence was relatively brief. Snipes had his hands up and was moving defensively. He didn't necessarily need to be firing back at that point. He was riding the storm out and not getting caught clean. Maybe he rides it out maybe he doesn't, but Snipes didn't look done at the point it was stopped.

Sure he was hurt to a degree, but being hurt alone doesn't necessarily justify a stoppage. There was no sustained beating here. It was a competitive fight that Holmes happened to be winning. Snipes was not discouraged and was continually the aggressor, active and throwing punches. Based on the 7th round KD he was considered still dangerous at that point.

Taking too much punishment or unable to defend himself is the criteria I'm going with and I don't believe it had come to that point yet.

No great controversy, just my opinion as always.

[hawk5ins]

Snipes got hit with a very solid right hand at about the 30 second mark after eating about 5 solid jabs up to that point. It briefly stunned him. More Caught his attention, than stunned acutally. Not Hurt though.

At the 45 second mark (using the Youtube counter), Holmes Hits Snipes with a HUGE right hand that alters Snipes facial expression as a combination of Pain and "Void".

Over the next 14 seconds up to the counter hitting 59, Holmes Lands 7 Solid heavy shots to Snipes head/face, one of them a hook. There were also a couple insignificant body shots and measuring jabs as well and Larry only missed with about 3 of his punches. The Last punch had Snipes bending over and with his left arm, grabbing around Holmes' waist. As the ref steps in, Holmes with his right hand, pushes Snipes off of him and only THEN, does Snipes show his "what me"? surprised look.

No Coulda Woulda Shoulda's. Snipes was Hurt. He was NOT punching back with any authority or accuracy, save one slow-mo looping right hand, Holmes was landing and landing hard and this was not just a quick couple of seconds this series happened in. It was 14 seconds of being seriously hurt and getting hit, showing he was hurt and not responding back.

There is NOTHING in that sequence that suggests to ME, that Snipes was rebounding what so ever.

Add to this, there were 2 mins left in the round.

Hawk

[HE Grant]

10-8: Not so ... Lewis had no idea where he was when it was stopped and Holmes did ... I do not feel it was the same ...

[10-8]

10-8: Not so ... Lewis had no idea where he was when it was stopped and Holmes did ... I do not feel it was the same ...

Evan, both guys went down from solid right hands and were dropped in similar fashion. Neither guy fell face first, nor did they hit their head on the canvas. Both were up pretty quick. Lewis took a step and stumbled into Garcia and immediately complained when it was stopped. Holmes lurched forward and smashed into the turnbuckle and would have likely went down again without the turnbuckle stopping him.

If Ortega had have stood in front of Holmes as he rose Larry likely would have taken Ortega into the turnbuckle with him.

[10-8]

Hawk, Snipes had 48 fights and the only other KO loss was his last fight. For all his shortcomings the guy had a pretty solid chin and from the Coetzee fights we saw he could bounce back pretty good when floored and hurt.

Holmes was no huge puncher, he hurt guys like Shavers and Cooney bad, (in earlier rounds) neither guy with as good a chin as Snipes, and they were teed off on and weathered the onslaughts. I happen to think Snipes should have been afforded some more time, and that it was stopped premature. It doesn't change who I think would have won, only that Ortega was a bit quick to pull the trigger.

I'll accept that we're simply opposed on what would have happened.

[hawk5ins]

Too hard that Ortega may have pulled the trigger a teency-tad quick.

All I'm saying is that:

*Snipes was Hurt Pretty Bad.

*He was not returning fire.

*Holmes landed 6 followup Clean, hard shots On Renaldo after the initial punch had hurt him, along with a handful of less significant punches.

*Holmes was NOT going to slow down that attack, NOR was he going to tire.

*There were 2 solid mins left in the round.

Ortega lets it go on, if what was happening continued on for another 10 seconds, and there is NO Reason to think it would not have, Holmes either forces Ortega to step in and call the bout, or Snipes get's KO'd.

Either way, there is NOTHING that one can view from that 14 second barrage, that would indicate that Snipes was going to turn anything around or that Holmes was going to let up.

Snipes was on his way OUT.

Hawk

[brutu]

I remember watching both fights live on t.v too.
By far the knockdown by Renaldo Snipes was the most dramatic,
the two were really going at one another when it happened.
I thought maybe Holmes head had exploded like that movie Scanners when Snipes big right hit him,Holmes when down like he had been de-boned.
The knockdown by Shavers,well we had already seen Holmes get off the canvas and win so it wasnt that dramatic.
That punch didnt even look as hard as the one Shavers landed on
Muhammad Ali in 1977 in the second round where Ali goes flying halfway across the ring

[hawk5ins]

Who in 1979, had previously seen Holmes KO3 Kevin Isaac?

Holmes getting dumped by Earnie Shavers was about as Dramatic and shocking as it got. And it certainly was NOT a "same old, same old" moment. Holmes's ONLY other trip to the canvas as a Pro was 6 years earlier in 1973, in a non televised, 6 round bout, that was buried underneath A Jimmy Dupree Ray Anderson and Jeff Merritt Ron Stander card out of Cleveland.

Holmes Snipes was certainly more SURPRISING as it was Renaldo Snipes and not Earnie Shavers.

With Shavers, you ALWAYS expected a KO blow. But to say Holmes getting dropped by Shavers was NOT dramatic?

Yikes!

Hawk

[hawk5ins]

I just compared Holmes's trip to the canvas agianst Snipes to Lewis' KO loss to McCall.

The Clips were:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL_K8...eature=related
&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDwLb...eature=related

For Holmes Snipes, using the Counter on the Clip:

3:23 Holmes is Hit and struggles to stay up
3:25 Holmes is officially on the canvas
3:27 Holmes is back up. 2 Seconds he is up. 3 if you want to start the 10 count at 3:24, which is arguable
3:28, Holmes hit's the turnbuckle
3:30 into 3:31 Holmes is facing Ortega and taking the count, whihc is at 5
3:36 Snipes is waived in.

Now for Lewis McCall

2:57 Lewis is Hit and Down, Immediately.
3:04, Lewis if finally up off the canvas. 7 actual seconds.
3:06 Lewis is turned around and taking a count.
3:07,Lewis staggers forward into the ref.
3:09, The ref waives the bout off as Lewis is still stumbling into him with no balance.

In Hindsight, Holmes's quick jump up, while resulting in a stumble into the turnbuckle, may have helped him as he was steady on his feet by the count of 6, where as Lewis wasn't even off the canvas until 7 seconds after he was down.

Lewis looks worse for wear than Holmes did.

Now as far as Holmes Shavers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpNrz...eature=related

Holmes Looked like he was SHOT. Hell he immediately falls out of the Picture!

Holmes went down so quick and was up at about the count of 5. He looks pretty out of it the remainder of the round. A-he was a bit lucky Shavers was as tired and as wild as he was. B- He was lucky there were only 30 seconds left.

IMO, Holmes was in MUCH worse shape for the SHavers fall, whihc I still find frightening as all hell, than the Snipes Fall.

Snipes dropping Holmes was mor UNEXPECTED. But Shavers drop of Holmes, man it was a CRUSHING blow and I STILL have no idea how Larry got back up.

IMO, it was a much more devastating shot than the one he Hit Ali with, whihc btw, was pretty impressive in it's own right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F43I0...eature=related

Hawk

[PD99]

Hawk - meticulous breakdown.

Agreed, Holmes was in worse shape after the Shaver's right than the Snipes right.

As to the comparison between the Shaver's right on Ali v the Shaver's right hand on Holmes. I agree that the Shaver's right (in it's own right) appears to be the harder shot but I woudn't say much harder.

It certainly appears to be the far more devastating shot given the way Larry falls as if he took a sniper's bullet to the head. While Ali's reaction to Shaver's right wasn't so nearly as dramatic the difference in reaction might be put down to Ali possessing the better chin and legs.

The clip in question shows Ali face on and the impact is well illustrated. However, there's another clip from behind that might better convey the impact on Ali's head. As to the Shaver's KD of Holmes, I've never seen any other perspective than the one provided. Another view would be great to see but I suspect that's the only one.

[10-8]

I'll pitch in with nice time sequence breakdown but Hawk your love and bias for Holmes is too clear.

Lewis "staggers into the ref" and "is stumbling with no balance"

Holmes merely "hits the turnbuckle"

Lewis is "hit and down"

Holmes merely "officially on the canvas"

Lewis is "finally" up

Holmes is "back up"

Anyway, I'll leave it at that.

Hawk, you do own at least one Yngwie Malmsteen CD (I'll guess Rising Force) so while our differences regarding Larry may tilt our 90 % scales, your music choices bring things back in balance again.

[HE Grant]

10-8, the difference was that Holmes had regained his senses by the nine count and Lewis did not .. he was rocking on his legs and looking like he was in another place, only zooming in to the ref once he stopped it ... Holmes had regained his senses and was focused to the ref ...

The Shavers right on Holmes was far more flush than that on Ali ... that being said, Ali said it was the hardest shot he was ever hit ... the shot Shavers hit Holmes was a head snapping, full impact arc and it is truly amazing Larry got up to win ... what is rarely mentioned is that Earnie tagged Larry a bit a few seconds earlier in the round and I am sure that rocked Larry a bit and led to the follow up slip up ...

[10-8]

10-8, the difference was that Holmes had regained his senses by the nine count and Lewis did not .. he was rocking on his legs and looking like he was in another place, only zooming in to the ref once he stopped it ... Holmes had regained his senses and was focused to the ref ......

Fair enough Evan, I do see your point.

[hawk5ins]

The reason I made the disctinction of Lewis getting hit and immediately hitting the canvas and Holmes "officially" being on the canvas, was becuase, when Snipes hit Holmes, Larry struggled to keep his balance and wasn't officially on the canvas until nearly 2 seconds AFTER Snipes Hit Holmes.

With The Shavers Knockdown, the Punch and Larry on the canvas immediately. Same with Lewis McCall. The Time of the count starts when the fighter hits the canvas. With Holmes Snipes, there was a delay, becuase Holmes didn't "touch down" immediately after getting hit.

I was just trying to point that out.

I have described Holmes' ramming head first into the turnbuckle multiple times in this thread. If I dumbed down Holmes' "drunken like catapult, cranium first into an Immovable Ring Post", it was only becuase I didn't want to sound repetitive with my descriptions.

Hawk

[10-8]

I knew it would be Rising Force.

Now for Dio.

Holy Diver or Last in Line?

[hawk5ins]

And The Very Beast of...

Hawk

[10-8]

He lost me after Sacred Heart.

Must've been the song "Rock 'N' Roll Children"

[hawk5ins]

Just to get this back on track, I did want to offer up my defense for my Holmes hit the turnbuckle line.

Here were my descriptions of the event through this thread:

*rammed into the turnbuckle immediately

*Thus, the Hamed like Turn buckle headbutt

*His legs were just not there yet and he lurched forward and hit the turnbuckle.

*Even with Holmes's Head butt into the turn buckle,

*when he rammed into the turn buckle

*right after the turn buckle head butt,

*Holmes hit's the turnbuckle

*Holmes' ramming head first into the turnbuckle

*Holmes' "drunken like catapult, cranium first into an Immovable Ring Post",

I do admit. That last entry is probably my best work.

Hawk

[PD99]

I'll stay with the Shavers' shot on Larry moving slightly forward as being harder than that which sent Ali stumbling back in rd 2 of their fight. However, I still wouldn't say that it was appreciably harder.

It's impossiblet to divorce the reaction of the recipient (and previously evidenced steel in their chin) from the perception of how hard a punch actually was in it's own right.

Earnie's shot on Ali was plenty flush and did snap Ali's head right back (among more than a few others throughout their fight) - the general feeling from articles and commentary I've read and heard is amazement that Ali stayed on his feet after such a torrid shot as well the many others he took thereafter.

Now the fact that well chinned Larry dropped like a dead man had to bolster the perception of the particular punch that Larry took as being an absolute killer but I will also hold also on the belief that Ali's chin and legs were reasonably more solid than Holmes'. If Ali had in fact crashed from Earnie's right hand as Holmes did, ppl's perception of the power in the very punch that Ali took might've risen accordingly.

As to Larry The Animal Holmes and that turnbuckle - maybe the head butt was a blessing in disguise and actually sobered Holmesy up.

[HE Grant]

It is a bit hard to see exactly where Shavers hit Ali based on the camera shots of that fight ... it's not even easy to see the Holmes knockdown as I have never even seen a close up front view of the shot, only the rear, long shot of the head snapping backward ... the Holmes shot does look more full and arched, a real Sunday punch but we must also keep in mind that the Ali shot was in round 2 when Shavers was not tired and at his most deadly ... those who saw it live like Steve Farwood have told me the Holmes shot was the hardest shot he had ever seen ... who knows, they were both murderous ...

I remember that it was after the Shavers fight that the legend of Ali's chin began to grow more than ever, the shots he took that night in front of a national audience (that's right, network prime time) amazed and sadden all as it was clear his skills were badly deteriorated and his heart kept him up through the fight. I have not watched the entire fight in many years but will again soon to rescore it ...

[10-8]

Just to get this back on track, I did want to offer up my defense for my Holmes hit the turnbuckle line.

Here were my descriptions of the event through this thread:

*rammed into the turnbuckle immediately

*Thus, the Hamed like Turn buckle headbutt

*His legs were just not there yet and he lurched forward and hit the turnbuckle.

*Even with Holmes's Head butt into the turn buckle,

*when he rammed into the turn buckle

*right after the turn buckle head butt,

*Holmes hit's the turnbuckle

*Holmes' ramming head first into the turnbuckle

*Holmes' "drunken like catapult, cranium first into an Immovable Ring Post",

I do admit. That last entry is probably my best work.

Hawk

I noted that there was shortage of verbs and adjectives on prior desriptions. What raised my suspicions was the sudden toned down desription when parrallel comparisons were being made with the Lewis KD thus lessening the magnitutude of the Holmes KD.

Out of all that I will concede that Holmes was up quicker and thus was worse off than Lewis when he rose, however was likely in better shape after 9 seconds. I still maintain the position that both Lewis and Snipes were early stoppages. Especially in the case of Lewis.

[HE Grant]

I agree that Lewis should have been allowed to go on ... he was the champion and you never know ... I also remember King and Company jumping up and down like they could not believe their luck over the whole thing ... I think the Snipes stoppage was a bit less contested because other than the knockdown Snipes was basically losing the whole fight ...

[10-8]

I agree that Lewis should have been allowed to go on ... he was the champion and you never know ... I also remember King and Company jumping up and down like they could not believe their luck over the whole thing ... I think the Snipes stoppage was a bit less contested because other than the knockdown Snipes was basically losing the whole fight ...

100% agreement Evan.

[HE Grant]

I'll go a bit further ... by not letting Lennox go on we have been robbed from seeing how great a fighter he really was ... we do not know if he had the recovery skills of a Holmes or other great fighters since it was stopped ... maybe he holds on tight, his head clears and he goes on to dice up McCall ... we will never know and now Lennox is forever cursed as a hell of a fighter that could be flattened with one shot ... once like against Rachman would have been one thing but now we have, forever, twice and it is a strong case on paper ...

[hawk5ins]

Have no real argument, that the ref could have let Lewis go on.

I don't view it as the WORST stoppage I've ever seen, because Lennox was indeed on unsteady legs when the fight was waived off.

And I do not know if he could have survived McCall's followup, but It certainly would not have been out of the question to have let it go on and See what happens.

There was quite a bit of time left in the round though.

My guess would be that Lewis would have gotten stopped within the next 30 seconds. But it would have been nice to see him get the opportunity to prove me wrong.

Hawk

[10-8]

I'll go a bit further ... by not letting Lennox go on we have been robbed from seeing how great a fighter he really was ... we do not know if he had the recovery skills of a Holmes or other great fighters since it was stopped ... maybe he holds on tight, his head clears and he goes on to dice up McCall ... we will never know and now Lennox is forever cursed as a hell of a fighter that could be flattened with one shot ... once like against Rachman would have been one thing but now we have, forever, twice and it is a strong case on paper ...

Evan I agree again 100%. That's the fate of boxing. So many guys careers or reps get defined, shaped or supported in one fight.

Mercante could have stopped Foreman-Frazier in the 1st round. With a 3 KD rule he would have had no choice. Mercante let the beating go on and on and Frazier's legacy became "You can't keep him down". That is pretty much accepted gospel now.

What if Buster Douglas hadn't got the long count and Tyson wins by stunning one-punch come from behind KO. How would Tyson's legacy be different?

What if Marciano had have been TKO'd by Charles with the nose injury (would have been stopped in modern eras). There goes 49-0 and Marciano's rep takes a big step down.

Singular incidents that bolster or hurt guy's reps. I felt the same with McCall-Lewis. No heavyweight champion has lost his title like Lewis did, on his feet and complaining after only 1 KD early in a fight. He should have been afforded the opportunity to continue. It was a heavyweight championship fight.

[hawk5ins]

What happens if McCall Splatters him across the ring had the Ref let it go on?

Does it hurt or hinder how Lewis is thought of? Would it have wounded him mentally? Or even Physically?

Look at the stoppage from this angle: Maybe He DID get the quick Hook. He Now has something of an exscuse to lie on. The ending was not as definitive had he been stretched again seconds later.

Now we have the "What If" that actually benefits Lewis.

And the Rahman KO? Well he was unprepared. Filming Ocean's Eleven. When he prepped for it in earnest in the return match, look what happened.

So I think there is certainly benefit of the doubt afforded for Lewis.

The Stoppage gave us that doubt. By letting it go on, The QUESTIONING of many about Lewis, could very well have been CONFIRMED.

In an odd way, the ending may actually have benefitted Lennox.

Hawk