Last edited by tedsares; 07-28-2008 at 11:52 PM.
If we are talking about Punching Power alone, a few years back a Feather called Angel Vazquez was creating something of a stir, he crackled with power, and was closing in to a mandatory challanger position to Nassem Hamed, and a few voiced he opinion that it would be an extremely risky assignment for the prince, but his momentum seemed to stall and he melted away
( if i remember correctly (??) no guarantee, i seem to recall he signed a promotional deal with Hamed's promoter Frank Warren which seemed a strange thing to do given Hamed was in his sights , is all a bit hazy, suffice it to say, One Minute Angel was Hot the next he was Not ! - but what was beyond dispute was that he could punch like a mule kick.)
I don't think Gomez ever showed murderous power above 122 lbs.
Originally Posted by GanchoIzquierdo
No , he didn't. You are right on that.
Arguello flattened Escalera and broke his jaw in the second fight to end it, also dropped him earlier in that fight. As I recall he didn't drop him in the first bout (could be wrong on that), but the first fight definitely ended with Escalera on his feet, stopped on bad cuts.Originally Posted by HE Grant
What about Ruben Olivares and Eder Jofre?
Originally Posted by PeteW
Yep! Two heavy handed guys, especially Ruben--both as a batam and as a feather
A couple of guys from the 50's :Gene Smith from Wash. DC and Percy Bassett from Phila. Valente Vera was a terrific banger in the '70's but didn't take it too good. Jaime Garza was known as a 122 lber but could punch as hard as any 126lber in the 1980's.
Great calls. Garza was a bomber. Bassett is in my top 100 (toward the bottom). I hear Gene Smith was a holy terror in his time, but don't know much about him.Originally Posted by phlboxarc
How would you rate Jofre's power as a Feather, compared, say, to (prime) Saldivar and Ramos?
Not as great,but there is precious little footage to prove this put. I think I might have all the footage availble on Eder.
There have been several. Danny Lopez, Ruben Olivares and Sandy Saddler would go at the top of my list. In more recent years Naseem Hamed has to rate high. He could certainly be out-boxed, but man could he drop some bombs! In the active guys I believe one guy who may get looked over at featherweight is Manny Pacquiao!
I failed to mention possibly the hardest hitting featherweight in this time span and I went back and saw that Frank had mentioned him, but Ricardo Moreno was a knockout artist in every sense of the term! Truly crippling power!
With all due respect, I must disagree a tad.Originally Posted by BDeskins
Yes, he had an impressive KO percentage of 80.82 and an astounding excitement factor of 93.15 (total KOs divided by total fights). He was a fan’s delight. Like a mini-Bob Satterfield, he was a chill-or-be- chilled kind of guy who required fans to remain in their seats less they miss the explosion that would occur with startling regularity.
But wait, he fought 21 opponents with a 0-0 record coming in and another 21 with losing records coming in. He only lost to one of them (Nacho Escalante) and that was early in his career. He lost his two highest profile fights to Davey Moore (KO 1) and Hogan “Kid “ Bassey (KO 3), but did manage to ice Henry 'Pappy' Gault in three. But the fact is, when he stepped up, he lost and when he stepped down, he won.
Unfortunately, an analysis of Pajorito’s record reveals that his reputation as a bomber might have more to do with his level of opposition than it did with is innate power.
Just my opinion, but a fighter's level of opposition is my single most important ctiterion in evaluating a fighter's worth.
You can usually get a good feel for a fighters power just by the kind of knockouts he is scoring IMO.The reaction of opponents when they get hit
Huge amounts of otherwise non-world class fighters have solid beards after all.
When the guy with the huge knockout record steps up and fails it tends to be because of other deficiencies they possess, rather than their power not being up to it.
Hamed is a solid choice - we all know he could grate a tad, but he fought some good guys and most of them he blasted, many with single shots.
Hamed needed a trainer to settle him down, so he could better harness that switch-hitting style, but when he got it right and planted those big legs for one of those 'corkscrew uppercuts' he must surely have been as devastating as a Featherweight gets.
Originally Posted by starlingstomp
This guy iced inferior opposition and got iced by superior opposition. Number don't lie.Wilfredo Gómez iced real oppsoition; he was a REAL bomber. Still, I see and respect your point.
After a decent amateur career, Lamar Clark won his first fight by decision and then proceeded to win forty-four straight fights by KO. Some of his opponents were professional wrestlers; others were local tough guys picked up off the street. On December 1, 1958, as part of something called the Intermountain Heavyweight Tournament in Bingham, Utah, he fought six consecutive foes, knocking each out, five in the first round with a mauling and brawling style.
On April 8, 1960, Lamar Clark (45-0 at the time, 44 KOs) fought unknown
Dominican Bartolo Soni (12-2-1) in Ogden, Utah, and lost by a ninth-round
TKO. Why was this memorable for me? Well, I would have bet the house on
Soni if I could have found someone dumb enough to wager.
Clark’s incredible streak was against unknown opposition with a combined
won-lost record of 6-33! Twenty were in the first round. Soni was only the second with a winning record. All but four of his fights were in his home state of Utah. His record was totally hollow, and I knew it. I knew that Soni knew it too.
Now all I had to do was find someone who didn’t know it.
Clark would then lose to Pete Rademacher and Muhammad Ali by TKO and
retired with a 45-3 slate and a misleading KO percentage of 92 percent. All this occurred in a span of just three years.
Moreno was no Clark. That's for sure. Pajorito had real pop, but the story has some similar elements. When he stepped up, it was time to bet.
Gomez was one of the most gifted technical fighters of his generation.If he had kept his power, but had been blessed with otherwise mediocre skills he wouldn't have gone very far either IMO.Originally Posted by tedsares
Of course, i don't disagree that quality of opposition is extremely important when rating the true all-time punchers.I just tend to feel it's more important for judging a fighters overall ability, than it is for one isolated factor like power.
Guys like, Moreno, Garza, Mugabi,Shavers, Zamora..you could see they were huge punchers by watching the kind of knockouts they were scoring, even if it was against trialhorses, fringe-contenders etc.
Well, Stomp, I see where you are coming from, but a review of Moreno's opposition vis a vis that of Garza, Mugabi, and others is striking. Hell, your point is born out to a degree by Tyson's early KOs of the fodder that was fed to him. Those were spectacular to say the least. We will agree to disagee, but thanks for the exchange. The real bombers for me were Cuevas, Hearns and Jackson. One punch clean icings. The right that did in James Shuler was a clean as they get. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efsvnlXaolY
As for Shavers, I am one of those very, very few who thinks his one-punch KO power might just might be overrated a bit, but since I am writing a piece on that, that's all I am going to say for now. Peace
The reason Pajarito's opposition might seem so inferior on paper is that we don't have the complete records of many old-time Mexican fighters. I know that's one of the big problems with Boxrec.
In any case, seemingly everyone who ever knew, saw, or faced Moreno--including our moderator Gordoom--invariably attested to his prodigious ko power.
PS--I agree with you about the Shuler knockout, though. Brilliant.
Originally Posted by GanchoIzquierdo
Points taken. Thanks, GanchoIzquierdo
Specifically about Gomez's power at Featherweight.
Obviously results don't lie. Agianst the 3 best Featherweights Gomez faced, he failed to score a KO.
Agianst the overall best competition he faced, Gomez was able to stop a rising in weight and probably unprepared (from the standpoint of not realizing how good Gomez REALLY was) Zarate and a rising in weight Lupe Pintor. Beyond those two he also stopped future champ Juan Kid Meza, future champ Leonardo Cruz, reigning champ Dong Kyun Yum and Repeat (unsuccessful) title challenger, Royal Kobayashi.
Agianst this lot, while Gomez could still be considered in or very close to his prime (No I am not including the Rocky Lockridge bout here, as Gomez was clearly DONE after the Nelson loss and I thought he CLEARLY lost to Rocky as well. THat he lasted the distance was a small miracle. But other than some heart that may have been open to some questioning in the past, I don't think Gomez merits any other points for that performance.) Gomez went 7-2 and with 6 KO's, all 6 of those KO's coming at 122.
The numbers don't lie. At 122, his KO % was CLEARLY superior agianst top flight opp. But it must be pointed out, that Gomez DID score several KO's at 126 in the non title fights he fought in while 122 pound champ and after he left the division and prior to him beating Laporte.
But agiasnt the BEST Feathers he faced, Gomez ran into the ROCK jawed Salvador Sanchez, whose chin I don't think ANYONE would question here. Then agianst Laporte. Say what you want about the dedication and committment that Juan had as a championship level fighter, but HIS chin is also above questioning. His beard stood up to Nelson, Sanchez, Pedroza, McGuigan, Chavez, Tzsyu, Lockridge.....you name it. He took it. And then finally Nelson. Now Azumah was dropped and stopped by Sanchez in his 14th pro bout, but following that, he demonstrated one of the strongest chins either the 126 or 130 pound division ever saw.
So my question is, is it Just, to say Gomez could Not punch at 126, becuase his punch could not dent or stop, three chins that would have to rank up with the finest beards the featherweight division ever saw?
I think it's a fair question.
Yes, I too would have loved to see how Gomez's punch would have fared on a Danny Lopez's Chin or a Mike Ayala or a Lockridge at 126 (in say 1982 or 1983). Rocky COULD be taken out at 126 as Laporte demonstrated. THAT would have been a Nice test to see what Gomez had at 126 against a world class but not necessarily and unpenatratable chin.
I can't say definitively that Gomez's power DEFINITELY was inferior to what he had at 122, becuase Gomez never faced chin's like Sanchez, Laporte or Nelson, AT Jr. Feather.
The three best chins he faced in his career as a fighter, happened to all be at 126. They also happened to be the 3 best and only world class, championship level fighters he faced at 126.
The questions about Gomez's lack of power at 126 are indeed legitimate ones and becuase of what actually happened, the questions Can NOT be dismissed or scoffed at.
But I have questions about the questions re his power at 126 just the same.
Hopefully this longwinded ramble made some sense and those reading it can understand where I am coming from.
I'm a firm believer in power hitters V power chins. And usually, the CHINs withstand the bombs. There is also the move up in weight to contend with. Gomez was a fierce puncher and P4P he was IMO on par with the best hitters in the game. A very good example of a wicked hitter coming short against a steel chin, and a wicked hitter coming short against a steel chin + a bigger man; is the Hawk. He couldn't dent McCallum and McClellan in both instances. He did dent Graham at 160; but Graham isn't in the steel category.
Hearns, a wicked puncher who came short more times as he rose in weight.
The lists go on and on.
Oh, and yes to all of Wilfredo's shortcomings V the steel chinned bigger feathers
On the Jackson analogy for a couple of reasons:
1-Against McCallum, Jax was still a very raw and unproven fighter. And he DID hurt Mike a great deal in the 1st round. A more seasoned Jackson in that same position may have fared differently. And this bout was at 154, just to clarify.
2-Against McClellen, I just didn't see Jax, connect with any single shot that was similar to what he landed on Norris, Drayton, Graham (whose beard going into the Jackson fight, was indeed an excellent one.) or even the shot he landed on McCallum. Some GOOD punches, that McClellen took well, but not the frightening like punches that landed with unreal snap. I'm not convinced that had Jackson landed similarly, that Gerald doesn't go. But we'll never know, as it never happened.
Julian's chin has never been great. I think the decider in that bout was that McClellen landed with a cleaner, more concussive shot on Julian, than Jackson was able to land on Gerald.
I think an appropriate analogy for what Gomez ran into at 126 after moving up, would be if a Ruben Olivares moved into the Feather division and faced chins of the calibre of Sanchez, Laporte and Nelson, and Olivares didn't budge any of them. We do know that while Ruben was NOT the Ruben of 118 anymore, he still carried one helluva shot with him at Featherweight. But had he gone up agianst THAT line up, I don't think he ko's any of them.
What Ruben DOES have going for him are quality KO's agianst championship level fighter chins. Chacon and Ramirez to name two. Gomez has Nothing like that on his 126 pound resume.
I'm not certain Hearns is an accurate comparison either for Gomez.
Tommy did have some stunning world class Ko's as he rose in weight, but he also demonstrated Power deficiencies agianst fighters whose chins were not exactly Laporte-esque.
True, some of this can be explained due to hand and wrist injuries. But other examples, to me simply show his power didn't carry up in weight as well as it has been argued that it did.
Gomez's power at 126 IS a mystery to me, becuase he didn't even have a Mark Medal or a Fred the Pumper Hutchings that he could have impressed or dissapointed us with.
It was either cannon fodder opponents or Hagler-esque chins.
It is becuase of that mystery, that I can't summarily dismiss his power at 126 and Definitively being less than it was at 122.
Complicated argument from me I admit. But when have I ever made things simple?
That's why I included the two scenarios for JJ. One is when he came up against
a steel chinned man in his own weight division; and the other is where he faced a bigger man in Gerald, who also had a great chin. I think JJ landed some real dingers on Gerald, but the extra size and weight; and natural man that Gerald was, enabled him to take it. JJ at peak was probably a 154 lb fighter.
Olivares would not have dented Sal, Nelson or Juan, agreed!
I think the JJ analogy is akin to the Gomez analogy...
Wasn't Wilfredo a more natural feather than Ruben could have been.
Wilfredo was big at 122 I think
I've never seen it get hit with a big time punch from a big time puncher and it have no effect.
Mugabi was shot and never hit him.
I still don't recall and significant shots Jackson landed (other than the one to the nads.).
Benn landed several good shots, but while he was IMO a better fighter at 168, he, Benn was not the puncher he was at 160 (speaking of a fighter whose power diminished as he rose in weight.....).
Again, re the McCallum bout, Jackson was raw and inexperienced and he DID hurt Mike in the first round. He just didn't have the seasoning to capitalize on it.
Don't want this to turn into another Gerald McClellen discussion.
Let's steer this back to Gomez and the Feathers.
Was Gomez a BIG feather? Well, he was big in that he had difficulty making weight for 126. That speaks more to his out of the ring lack of discipline than his being a Big Feather IMO.
No, Gomez was a big super bantam. He was an average sized feather and not as natural at 126 as a Sal or Barry or Nelson.
I would say that Gomez was a slightly bigger man than Ruben and would have more effect on Sal or Nelson than Ruben would have.
But like all examples, the steel chinned fighter will prevail in a contest against the banger and he will prevail that bit more when the banger is rising in weight to face him.
BTW, no fighter gets hit with big time shots with NO affect; even Hagler was momentarily stunned V Mugabi and Hearns..
Last edited by walshb; 07-16-2008 at 03:48 PM.
Sanchez rarely changed facial expressions to say nothing of showing being hurt.
As much of a gifted boxer/aggresive counter puncher as Sal was, his defense was quite porous. He Got Nailed very frequently with Big time Punches, from the likes of Gomez, Nelson and Lopez.
And never so much as winced.
Laporte's defense and cavalier approach saw him get hit even more frequently than Sanchez. And I never saw him so much a wobble.