By the way, I've been noticing a surprising number of people picking Manny Pacquiao to win this one, including some high school students.
Should be an interesting bout!
By the way, I've been noticing a surprising number of people picking Manny Pacquiao to win this one, including some high school students.
Should be an interesting bout!
So true my friend. It's sad for boxing.Originally Posted by Antonia Margarita
Oh for heaven's sake, and here the spin goes again...
Fine, I'll predict.
Manny got knocked out twice by people weighing less than 115 pounds. If Oscar hits him once, it's game over.
Now, Manny might be an underrated boxer, and Oscar might be slower than an iceberg, but still... I doubt he'll be able, or willing, to run all night.
He doesn't look very healthy to me.
Just curious: Since when has Manny Pacquiao been harder-punching than De La Hoya? Sheesh. Give me a break. And I'm sure that Pacquiao's power would have just as easily dispatched Vargas and Mayorga.Not that the 35-year-old De La Hoya has spent all that much time on his back in a 16-year career of 44 fights and 39 wins. But the talk has been hot and heavy that De La Hoya's Dec. 6 opponent, the younger and harder-punching Manny Pacquiao, 29, is thinking knockout more than decision.
On a career-long percentage basis, De La Hoya has a 76.92 percent KO ratio to Pacquiao's 74.47 percent. Now, over their last 10 fights, De La Hoya's KO percentage falls to 40 percent, while the busier Pacquiao rises to 60 percent.
Still, on the night of June 28th when he lost his title to Pacquiao, David Diaz took dozens of his punches before succumbing to a straight left he didn't see.
If Pacman kayoes De La Hoya, it'll probably be the same way. However, I seriously doubt he'll be able to take anywhere the same amount of abuse should De La Hoya be on and connecting flush.
Harder-punching. Give me a break.
DLH's defense is obviously much better than Diaz's but he still isn't that great with southpaws. Pac's a strong guy but to assume he punches harder than DLH is retarded. DLH may not have a great right but he has one of the best left hooks in the business for sure. Much of Pac's power comes from the spring from his legs. DLH could probably knock out just about anything with that left hook with bit of torque from the hips but basically standing still.
oscar is too big and has way too much skillz for manny. trust me it will be a short fight and everyone who got ripped off by ppv will cry about it.
that I posted in the Randy Gordon Thread on this:
Logic points to an Oscar Victory.
Unless he is in much worse shape than he was for Mayweather or even Forbes, I can't see how he loses.
I think the intrigue here is completely reliant on the mystery surrounding both fighters. What does Oscar have left in the tank? Can Manny perform effectively at such a high weight?
Sort of like when Jones went up agians Ruiz. Although it is completely unfair to compare Oscar to the Quiet man.
I used logic in that pick and chose Ruiz becuase quite frankly, I did not anticipate just how bad Ruiz would be. Based on what I saw in the uneven performances agianst a faded Holyfield, it seemed obvious to me at the time, that if he used his size and strength effectively, it would be an easy night for him.
Well he did neither and of course Nady didn't allow him to fight his typical Ugly fight either.
Was wrong as wrong could be on that one.....using LOGIC. Of course in Hindsight, it was OBVIOUS that Jones was such a superior talent to Ruiz. I simply expected Ruiz to do more to offset the talent disparity. He Then cemented his "quality" when he did it agian vs. another blown up middle in Toney.
Oscar has SOOOO much more proven talent than Ruiz. ANd Manny isn't as versatile as Jones.
THINKING what Oscar should be on fight night, it SHOULD be a clear win for him. However, I suspect that he may not bring to the table come fight night, what we expect him to.
It's a no win situation for him. Win and he was supposed to have won. Lose and it looks bad. Even if being shot, is a valid reason.
I'm taking Oscar based on Logic.
But where has logic ever gotten me?
I think it's going to be fun.
Becuase guys like us are going to over-analyze the Bejesus out of it to try and figure out what will happen.
What will be neat about this is, that after all the breakdowns and X factors and scenario analization, the fight will more than likely turn out to be so simplistic and after it's all over, we'll all sit back and state how "obvious" it all was and "why didn't we see it" for how it ended up being.
If nothing else, it'll give us all something to talk about!
And that's what the sport needs.
Even if this is REALLY an odd matchup.
An Even "Uneven" Matchup?
I agree about part B and get your points on part A. I just think the pressure may show to be too much for DLH since he has not put in a solid 12 round performance in some time when a threat was involved. On the other hand, I do not see Pac handling DLH's power well, especially the left hook and body shots. Thankfully Pac is a lefty so it will be harder for hooks to play into things as much as in an orthodox fight but who knows. Pac could end the fight on a body shot and throw it all out the window. It would be in DLH's best interest to bring a solid body attack.
What I do is that I'm fairly certain Pac will force the fight out of DLH. I don't think we will see a Pac-Barrera 2 here. I really believe this fight will end in a stoppage.
This one is either really easy for me to predict, or really hard, my gut instinct tells me that De La Hoya will land something really hard in the early going and Pac will be immediately dropped for the full count, Gatti was a naturally bigger man than Pac and tough as nails and look how he was destroyed by De La Hoya,
another scenario I see, and the only chance Pac has fo winning is, if he can get past the 5th round, I see De La Hoya beginning to rapidly fade from a combination of inactivity and weakness associated with making the 147 lb weight limit, in that scenario, Pac will continue to come on stronger and stronger in the championship rounds, mauling De La Hoya, and, I don't know if he can stop him, but he should be able to cruise to a decision,
Can Pac make it past five rounds with his constant forward pressure style?
I'm excited about this fight, it's kind of like a throwback to the old timers when fighters fought out of their natural weight all the time,
Man, the DLH-Pac 24/7 is even more boring than I thought it would be. The only kick I get out of it is hearing DLH try to talk tough in his voice. They would be better served to use this time to show highlight reels of each boxer's career than this crap.
I was thinking the same thing as I watched 24/7 last night. DLH has to be the most boring boxing personality ever. He never seems to say anything of substance.
Oscar by KO.
I think Oscar wins by KO, but Manny's KO losses at Flyweight have nothing to do with it. Have you seen those fights? Torrecampo was on an ABSURD low blow foul and the Singsurat KO was...um...weird. I've seen it quite a few times and the punch looks like it hit him on the elbow. He was weight dead for the fight. It reminds me of the Parra-Sakata III stoppage. Pacquiao's chin is proven at Feather and above so far; at Welterweight is a different story.Originally Posted by Telepath
Here is Torrecampo
[IMG]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UeqGxWxXbKc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UeqGxWxXbKc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/IMG]
I think it's obvious to say DLH via sub 6 round KO.
What I think is INTERESTING about the fight is what happens from Round 9 if Oscar hasn't gotten Manny out of there by then - I've never seen Manny tire in any fight to date, but will the added weight take the steam out of his vaunted stamina?
The prospect of Oscar Hatton next year is not very appealing, so while my brain says a comfortable Oscar victory, I'm going to be a Pac supporter big time on the night.
I have thought this one over and cannot see Paq winning it unless Oscar absolutely gets old overnight trying to make 147 ... Oscar has shown a very solid chin through the years taking the best of Vargas, Mosley and some other big hitters ... I just cannot see a natural 130 pounder hurting him ... of course, everyone agrees that if it goes past six it is a different fight but unlike Mayweather, Paq is not very hard to hit ....
It will be interesting ...
De La Hoya-Pacquiao: Are You Buying the Hard Sell?
By Cliff Rold
Itís almost here and the head scratching continues about exactly what is coming.
In little more than a week, 29-year old WBC Lightweight titlist Manny Pacquiao (47-3-2, 35 KO) will step up 12 pounds from his latest home on the scale to face 35-year old former lineal Jr. Welterweight, Welterweight and Jr. Middleweight champion Oscar De La Hoya (39-5, 30 KO) at Welterweight. Theyíre two of the biggest and most storied names in the modern fight game but skepticism about the matchmaking remains. Something about this fight still just doesnít feel right, feels cynical.
It starts with the size difference. Itís real and attempts to downplay it should be taken with a grain of salt. While some might cite that De La Hoya started his career at the weight Pacquiao has campaigned most of the last few years at, 130 lbs., thereís more to it. De La Hoya has been at Welterweight or Jr. Middleweight since 1997 or nearly 12 of his 16 years as a professional. Thatís his real, peak fighting weight. Pacquiao has been between 122 and 130 for the better part of 9 of his 13 paid years.
On paper, this fight makes only slightly more sense than it would have made for Alexis Arguello or Salvador Sanchez to jump up and fight Tommy Hearns in the early eighties and only because of how an aging Oscar is currently perceived.
Folks will watch anyways. Itís a given when Oscar is on screen and a plus when heís fighting the most exciting elite fighter of the decade, one currently regarded as the gameís best fighter period. The Boxing world is in the throes of the hard sell period. ďContact your local cable providerĒ and all that good stuff. Some of it feels authentic; a lot of it feels forced.
It comes across in the latest HBO 24/7 show which, paired with the Roy Jones-Joe Calzaghe edition just weeks ago, could be re-titled ďDear God Floyd Mayweather, Please Come Back!Ē Gimmicks and montages are no substitute for personality or drama. These last two editions have been, well, boring, because they have little of either.
Shows like 24/7, sustained fight hype in mass media generally, works best when the public can identify an antagonist and a protagonist. The natural protagonist, the good guy, is Pacquiao and theyíve gotten his story fairly right. Heís the hero of a poor nation. Defeat for him devastates the hopes and dreams of millions who are portrayed as needing them.
The bad guy should be Oscar, the big bully trying to secure a win over a much smaller but highly acclaimed man to avoid the truth about the prime behind him. Unfortunately, Oscar doesnít do bad guy so we get the same tired garbage about why he needed a new trainer for the 467th time, his Dad issues (how pre-Trinidad!) and some phony-feeling feud dealing with the corner men.
The schmaltz multiplies.
Bringing in living legend Angelo Dundee to hang out at Camp Oscar, take some notes, and leave isnít drama. Itís contrivance, a chance to show clips of the great trainer with Sugar Ray Leonard and Muhammad Ali in the hopes of creating false sentimentality in the purchaser.
Seriously, when did warm fuzzies become gate draws?
Fights are elemental; they beg the question of who can whoop whose ass. This fight has that question, but the predicates for it are flawed. Show of handsÖanyone on Earth think Manny Pacquiao competes with the Oscar De La Hoya who warred with Ike Quartey and Shane Mosley in 1999 and 2000? If that were the version of Oscar we were getting, than the admittedly intriguing risk Pacquiao is taking would be jaw dropping.
Thatís not exactly the risk heís taking.
There are comparisons throughout the press right now to men like Henry Armstrong, Sam Langford and a natural comparison point for the journey Pacquiao has made up from Flyweight, Jimmy McLarnin (even if itís a flawed comparison since McLarnin campaigned at Welterweight for over half of his career). Pacquiao stacks up to those men in some strong ways, but in terms of this fight itís more commercial hype than valid substance.
Pacquiao is the only fighter in history to ever win the lineal Flyweight and Featherweight crowns. This past March, he garnered popular recognition as the World Jr. Lightweight champion. His body naturally matured from 112 in his teens to 130 as a man and still looked solid at 135. However, there are some differences between him and, say, an Armstrong which should be food for skeptics of the big show on December 6.
Even in his biggest wins at 130 lbs., Pacquiao was still fighting career Featherweights and Jr. Featherweights. Great fighters all, men like Erik Morales, Marco Antonio Barrera and Juan Manuel Marquez werenít functionally bigger than Pacquiao. He wasnít facing the Jr. Lightweight class of the early 2000ís featuring young versions of Floyd Mayweather, Diego Corrales and Joel Casamayor.
In other words, he wasnít stepping up in weight as much as moving along with a crowd. David Diaz, whom Pacquiao demolished in June for his Lightweight belt, was at best a mid-level top ten guy if the alphablets are shelved and, most importantly, not a power threat. There is nowhere to point to in saying how Pacquiao does against a peak, elite Lightweight and yet heís headed towards a guy who has campaigned at Jr. Middleweight since 2001.
And thatís the selling point of course; the hard selling point. The size difference for the current pound-for-pound king to topple and make his way towards the immortals mentioned before.
The difference here is that all of those men moved up against the very best, win and lose. Langford fought a prime Jack Johnson (and Harry Wills, and Sam McVea and Joe Jeanette); Armstrong won the outright World titles from 126-147 lbs. and damn near pulled the trick at 160. Heck, former Welterweight and Middleweight champion Mickey Walker fought the two best Heavyweights in the world at the time, Jack Sharkey and Max Schmeling in the early 1930s in a draw and loss.
This fight doesnít rate with those challenges. Should the smaller man win, it is closer in significance to Hector Camacho knocking out Leonard than it is any of that fare.
Pacquiao is stepping up for a non-title fight against an Oscar who barely makes the top five at Jr. Middleweight right now and who arguably hasnít won a serious fight at the elite level of the game in six years. 2002. That was when De La Hoya defeated Fernando Vargas. Heís been in some competitive affairs since with outstanding fighters like Mosley in a rematch, like Bernard Hopkins, like Floyd Mayweather.
Read the Rest at: http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&id=17178
i am picking dlh but.... anyone picking manny may be wondering about oscars performance against forbes or that part time fighters have lost to smaller men before at the end of their careers i.e. camacho - leonard. something to think about.
that black eye dlh sports in 24/7 also makes me think he is not recovering from combat the way a younger man does. the light hitting forbes swelled him up pretty good....something else to think about.
if manny gets reckless early oscar will nail him. if he waits for oscars face to swell and can land some good body shots to help tire oscar he has a shot late....
still i'll take oscar but i wouldn't bet a cent on it.
I've been waffling on this all week.
Forbes certainly left the door open for debate although he is a way different fighter than Pac.
I'd love to see Manny pull it off. I can see him doing well for a few rounds but then run into something big & suddenly game over...kind of like DLH-Hopkins. But that's how those fights are "supposed" to go.
I said before that I think this fight will end in a stoppage. After thinking it through more, I think Pac will try to win this at any cost, even if he has to slow the pace down and not be so wild (ala Barrera). In a fight like that, Pac's speed combined with his growing skill in both offense & defense is enough to hang with this version of DLH.
I feel Roach is going to have Manny try to exploit every little thing he knows about DLH and I trust Manny to listen. In saying that I think he will go for a busy fight without swingin for the fences to wear DLH down in order to take him deep and drown him. I am very curious of how DLH was able to maintain his lowest weight in years & how it will affect him down the stretch with a busy fireplug.
yes.... it is something to waffle over. forbes and pac are different fighters. the main difference is that manny can punch and against diaz showed he has brought his punch up with him.
this by all accounts is the #1 p4p vs. an aging bigger man.....
boy am i waffling now !
That said, I like the chances slightly better of Manny springing the upset over the likes of a DLH win. Like you said, handspeed and quickness and better legs can give Oscar fits right now. And it's been a long long time since Oscar has stopped anyone and it'll be tougher to hit Manny than it was to hit a face first Mayorga.
If Manny uses his legs in there and uses angles in there to take away the jab, he can win this. He has to be quick and smart but if he takes away the DLH left hand, I don't think Oscar will win this bout with his right hand at this stage of the game. Disadvantages in footwork/reflexes and facing a southpaw can make this a difficult night for Oscar if he doesn't have his A game in there.
One thing I feel like I can rule out at this point is DLH by decision. Pac by stoppage is a tall order too but I think a tad more probable than the latter.
Nobody has stopped Oscar ('cept Hops with a body shot) I don't see Pac
stopping him, however, I could see a scenario where the corner stops it after
too much punishment.
Hatton made an old Tzu quit with volume punching, nobody expected that,
this may play out in a similar fashion, but Oscar's no quitter, it would be the corner.
Can Oscar jab for 12 rounds, keep him away and lead him into a left hook?
Can Manny keep distance and control the urge to brawl, and wait till later rounds and bring it?
This fight is an abomination, and anyone paying to see it on PPV--further encouraging HBO/TVKO and their ilk to keep putting crap like this on--is out of their minds.
If this isn't the biggest "Who Cares?" match up in years, I don't what would be.
A faded, jaded DLH vs. a ballsy, battered MP is NOT what boxing needs or wants now. But it does point out how far down in the doldrums of mainstream sports boxing is in, with Oscar's name recognition being the sole selling point of this exercise in pugilistic vapidity.
BTW, it was incredibly hard to see exactly where Torrecampo's shot landed on Manny, although I don't think it was low, IMO. The top rope and the dark image to the vid kind of obscure it, but it seemed to be right on Manny's mush as he leaned in. Thanks for posting it none the less.
How ignorant can one be. Camacho leoanrd was not at the end of Leonard career. IT WAS AFTER HIS CAREER WAS OVER 6 YEARS AFTER HIS LAST FIGHT,WHICH WAS VS NORRIS WHICH AS PRETTY MUCH 5 YEARS AFTER HE WAS ALREADY WASHED UP!!Originally Posted by gregbeyer
I would think you can come up with a better analogy than that. DLH has not been inactive for 6 straight years, nor did he take 5 years off before as Ray did. When comparing the two situaitons your talking about night and day. A fighter who takes off 6 years being older than 40, is prone to get ko'd by any active fighter, regardless of weight class. If you box you realize that a large part of taking a punch goes into how you take the punch, if you see it, your reflexes, are you rolling with it, when you get hit are you conditioined enough to deal with it the dizzyness, how much experience do you have in dealing with getting hurt.
My friend all of that went out the window after Ray lost to Norris and was totally away from boxing for 6 years and turned 40. Camacho should have stopped him earlier, it he was not such a soft hitting lightweight. The condition Ray was in, was not much more than a MMA fighter getting into boxing when he is peak vs a top flight fighter. He may be in shape weight wise but not able to deal with anything comming his way from at active seasoned top flight professional fighter, regardless of if they outweigh them naturally by 15 pounds or so.
Oscar is going to kill Pacquio, who by the way is my wife's 2nd cousin. I will be in hawaii for my son's 1st baptism and his entire family will be with us and then we will be looking at the fight. Gonna be a long night there I guess.
I have never been a big fan of DLh but I cant get myself to pick Pacman... The fact that Pacman started fighting at 106 pounds makes it hard for me to believe that he can take on a good though aging/inactive fighter who campaigns at around 154-160 these days.
Manny will be faster, more active, with amazing loads of stamina but I think it will be all for not when a solid DLH left hook lands.
Its too bad as DLh will then go around claiming that it was a great win over a p4p fighter. What a joke.
hey pinky.....you got a problem with a post...say THAT. don't fucking call me ignorant. that really pissed me off. who the fuck are you to say that.
I will probably get this fight in, though I know I shouldn't be supporting this crap; and it is crap; but I guess I'll just be too curious.
I think DLH will win. He should, considering Manny is at least two weights below Oscar
Bottom line is that Manny has nothing to lose here; he didn't take the fight, and some other schmuk would step up and make an easy pay day. Oscar is getting money for 'jam.'
It's a disgrace really. Oscar knows he cannot be in any way physically hurt or destroyed.
If Oscar was stepping up to meet Dawson or Pavlik, then I might afford him respect and afford the fight respect.
When was the last time Oscar made 147 ? Anyone think this will drain him? When is the weigh in ? Day before or day of ? These are key questions.