Originally Posted by hagler04
Great point about the old school fighters. Your post is how I gain more knowledge each time I read the threads. Thanks, Hagler.
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Great point about the old school fighters. Your post is how I gain more knowledge each time I read the threads. Thanks, Hagler.
First off, I didn't say it messed him up either, please read.
Second, nothing was intended as an insult or to give you the impression there was any "hate" as you put it, in my post. It's a message board, don't take everything so literal and or personal. Nothing I say is meant to set off a pissing match, or someones "sensitive" side, such as yourself.
Nothing but love around here chief, I don't know what else to tell you.
Respect, bro.
Last edited by Kurant; 07-27-2008 at 01:54 PM.
Peace
Well, I was wrong. I didn't think Margarito stood a chance. I didn't see the fight But I sure he shown alot of heart. I really have to see the fight before I can say anything.
I'm with ya on that. Those uppercuts were the deciding factor last night.
I'll keep that in mind for the next time.
I am still in shock that none of Cotto's shots effected Margarito. Cotto should have realized early that head hunting was not the way to go. The only way he could have slowed him down is body shots, if anything at all.
Margarito was brilliant with the uppercut. It has been one of Cotto's biggest vulnerabilities and he exploited it thoroughly. Cotto showed a lot of poise & good movement but he was completely outgunned. I didn't think the size differential would have been such a factor.
The Cotto train had to end sometime. HBO got quite a run out of him. This could have been a very damaging loss for him. It reminded me a lot of Freitas losing to Corrales. Regardless of what Cotto does from here, its pretty apparent Margarito is not in the cards for him again. Some time I picked to stop betting against Cotto but hey nobody gets it right all the time.
1
Last edited by tedsares; 07-28-2008 at 10:15 PM.
When I say, you are only as "smart" as your last prediction, that can be a positive or a negative.
Last prediction can mean you got it right or you got it wrong.
For every Berbick decisions Thomas Prediction I threw out there, I had a Rosarior stops Chavez inside of 7 rounds to follow it up with. Just when I got cocky with Barrera over Hamed and Hopkins over Trinidad, I had "Mosley in a rout over Forrest" thrown back in my face.
I get as many wrong as I get them right. That's what I was trying to get accross.
I do think that Margarito and Williams need to get it on IMMEDIATELY. Both are coming off of very impressive performances that leave them on a very High note. Each has unfinished business with the other and each NEEDS the other to prove something to themselves and to the public.
Letting a REMATCH of their very close fight simmer is IMO, only asking for trouble. We have seen what happens when BOTH of these guys comes into fights less than 100% focused. Either of them fighting lesser lights is only asking for a mega payday to blow up in smoke for either of them.
The ONLY fight I can see either of them taking prior to a rematch, from a financial standpoint would be a bout with Oscar. You can't pass up that money. And at this stage, I think if either comes in 100% on their game, it's an easy fight for both guys.
They mess with an "interim" bout, disaster is going to strike one of them and the money is going to go out the window. I HOPE Oscar just goes away. But if he doesn't and dangles a carrot in front of either of these two, I can't blame either Antonio or Paul for going for the money.
But personally, I say let these two finish unsettled business.
It's best for them and best for the sport.
Hawk
Well I watch the fight again this morning and I have to say a big thing that stuck out to me was the fact that Cotto hardly when to the body at all. Being that this has always been his biggest strength it seemed surprising. However I think this is because with AM's constant pressure and size he had to keep his hands close to his face and try to avoid the over hand counter.
In Manny's defense he basically called the fight in the first two rounds. To me Manny is the best guy on HBO. I like Papa as well.
I'm not trying to get into the middle of your (ted's) conversation with Diggity here.
I am responding to Post #83 of yours.
Obviously, the first half of my post. The second half is in response to an earlier post you responded to me with.
Hawk
Absolutely!!
I've watched the fight two times with different commentary (HBO and Top Rank), and the common denominator among all but one of the announcers (Steward) as well as the bulk of the people who post on boards, is that they give little to no credit to Margarito for the work he did during the first 6 rounds. Although true that he lost the majority of the rounds (I had it 4-2 Cotto), he was landing many clean body shots and some nifty left hooks and uppercuts when he pinned Cotto against the ropes. Margo was in stalking mode but pretty relaxed, and he was making Cotto very uncomfortable and forcing him to spend a lot of energy to stay out of danger. All of this work, especially the body shots, laid the foundation for what was to come later, when Cotto's energy was sapped and he became a more stationary target for Margo's attack. All I could hear during the first six rounds was how great Cotto was doing and how he was landing the more "damaging" (read "flashier") punches, but all of the damage that Margo was silently causing was not being acknowledged. Something else that was not acknowledged was the great defensive plan Margo had concocted to take Cotto's meal ticket (the body punching) away. His right elbow was glued to his ribs when he was not punching. So, knowing he likely had the chin to take Cotto's shots, he gave him that instead of the body. I wonder why none of these guys was able -or willing- to appreciate all of the little things that Antonio was doing in there. He will never be confused with a great technician or a fluid boxer, but I thought that, given his speed and technique limitations, he had an excellent strategy going throughout the fight.
Not having watched the complete fight, but only selected rounds and some rather detailed highlights, I have had to rely on many of the post fight reports from various sources.
However, to your point and to the credit of Adam who reported the fight for us who didn't get the bout, his description of the 4th round seemed to sum up what you are saying completely:
"4 - Cotto boxing well, moving around, firing fast shots, landing more. However, AM defense just good enough that he isn't getting hurt or fazed much. AM not fighting to win rounds but to keep the pressure on, making Cotto work at a faster rate than he wants, and to wear him out late in the fight. Seems one of two things will happen - Cotto will outbox him to decision, or AM will wear him out late."
Again, thanks Adam.
Hawk
It was just a matter of time before someone got to Cotto. He was overhyped, very simple. I thought that he was running from Mosley who was offering the same kind bodyshots that slowed him down against Margarito. Corley nearly had him. Just about every fight he has a moment of wonder. Cotto just simply cannot take it. I was however suprized that he quit. The reason is Cotto is one of the dangerous guys when you he is hurt.
Now, he is superbly skilled. Those shots he was firing at Margarito were scary accurate. I even saw him throwing counter left uppercuts under Margarito's weak jab. I love that punch, especially when a straight right follows it.
Mentally he is was done. The constant pressure and the understanding that Margarito was not going to wilt, but in fact he loved it. I think that is what got to Cotto and he quit. Cotto walked out of the ring just like he walked in, confident. I don't understand it. Cotto should do everything he can to get back in there with Margarito. Cotto-Hatton would not be bad either.
Boxing is a tough sport and looking at Margarito eyes you cannot help but see a KILLER.
BTW, I would love to see he KO Oscar De La Hoya. He probably can't but I love the thought of it. Don't you?
Last edited by JLP 6; 07-28-2008 at 09:13 AM.
JLP, I don't think Cotto quit. Didn't his corner throw in the towel?
Ted, I did notice that alright, however, IMO it was not really a quit job. Marg
forced Cotto to go down with the pressure and pace
I don't think Cotto quit, you're right, walsh, the corner stopped the fight.
Was one part of the fight that I did catch.
Agreed with Frank and Walsh. Cotto did not quit. The corner stopped the bout.
I personally would not question his courage with how the bout ended.
Hawk
It is a difficult thing to judge the firing of the synapses in a man's brain. Scrambled, addled... seeking rest, losing balance.
To me, Cotto did NOT quit. He may have been on his way from slightly coherent and on queer street to not being coherent at all.
I noticed this on my second watch as well. Good call.
It indicated that his legs were gone.
Maybe I will have to watch it again.
He did go down without taking a shot. His body language before the second knockdown looked like he had enough.
Walking backwards with his hands and then kneeling down with out getting hit or firing a round. I think his corner knew that Cotto had no more and wanted no more. Think about it. Cotto has been down before and he has gotten up to win. His corner has seen him in worst situations. Why throw in the towel this time? He was done. More importantly Margarito looked like he would have pulled a Duran - Moore if the fight would have continued.
Lastly, Cotto did not protest. He walked over to the corner and that was it. He quit. Sorry, difference of oppinion.
I think Cotto was about to quit had the corner not stopped it & was prepared to do so. The corner had to stop it...
maybe he WAS about to quit.. how he may have done so is open for debate. He could have not responded to the ref asking 'you ok?'.. then we'd be talking about him being out while standing? Maybe he goes down again from a shot or breeze from one and they stop it.
I dunno.
The HBO crew had a LOT invested in Cotto and talked up his every move, how his punches were harder and more accurate, his movement was masterful, etc. It was like they did not even notice Margarito was bludgeoning him until he took his first knee.
The old saw is if you really want to know who won a fight, let a five-year-old watch it with the sound off, then ask him to point to the winner. A five-year-old would have had an easy time of it Sat night, as Margarito was relatively unmarked while Cotto looked as though he lost an argument with a set of tire chains.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me, it looked like a simple case of a carefully-managed fighter finally stepping in with someone his own size and getting poleaxed for his trouble.
His own size?
I have always felt that guys like Cotto and PBF are not TRUE 147 lb men. Cotto is a classic example of a fighter stuck between 140-147. A slight bit too hard to make 140, but a slight bit small for 147
Marg onn the other hand is a true 147-154 fighter
I have not seen such a difference in physical presence as what was evident between Cotto
and Margarito...
Last edited by walshb; 07-28-2008 at 11:20 AM.
Going down without being hit should really be a foul, as it is giving you a rest period and preventing your opponent from inflicting damage. I know that sounds barbaric, but it's true.
I really think the Cotto case was a fighter who had absorbed so much pressure and took some real good shots over a sustained period and was almost forced down in pure desperation.
I just cannot equate this to a QUIT job. This might be a bad analogy, but the G-Man going down against Benn was a pure case of a desperate distressed man who knew something was gravely wrong.
Who knows exactly what Cotto was feeling towards the end. I think the man was simply in serious distress....
Every man has a limit!
Cotto was hurt about 10 seconds before he went down the last time, its totally unfair an wrong to say that he quit after giving his all for 10 and 1/2 rounds, what B-S!!
I was pulling for Margo. but I have to give credit where credit is due.
Taking a knee is a perfectly acceptable strategy imo, as long as it treated like a knockdown by the ref.
Cotto had just hit the wall.Certainly didn't look like he quit per se.
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