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Thread: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

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    Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    Fifty years ago in 1958 Nat Fleischer, founder of Ring magazine, published for the first his all time divisional boxing ratings. Here are mine 50 years later.

    http://coxscorner.tripod.com
    Last edited by Monte Cox; 08-10-2008 at 10:44 PM.

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    good lists Monte only immediate exception is BHop, he doesn't belong when you think of all the great MW's... Jock McAvoy, Fred Apostili, Holman Williams and too many more to mention.

    I would'nt place LL among any great list of HWs, Lennox gets beat by most of the greats & their top contenders.

    I wish more people would look at Britain's Ernie Roderick and France's Robert Villimain all-time greats for sure and two fighters that prove the gap across the pond wasn't so wide!

    great lists, Jim.

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    I would put chandler above zarate

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    A lot of the important names are present. Mr. Cox seems to give a lot of credence to quality of opposition being a big factor(as do I), then goes on to list Aaron Pryor ahead of Tony Canzoneri and Barney Ross, both of who's opposition makes Pryor's look positively anemic in comparison. Laughable even.

    He also gives the exact reason why Harry Greb should be rated ahead of both SRR and Gans p4p, then goes ahead and puts them above Harry.

    Why is Tommy Ryan- considered by many to be the finest fighter of his era(look at his record)- not listed anywhere?
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 08-11-2008 at 03:30 AM.

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    I do not have time to reply to every comment or email (perhaps later but Im working alot of OT right now) so I will make this post. Yes I do give alot of importance to quality of opposition, but that is not the only factor. Clay sent me an email asking me:

    "I was just reading thru your latest post on boxer rankings and was wondering if you could help clear up an issue for me concerning your view, and possibly many others, of what is meant by greatest pound for pound fighter. When you talk about the greatest pound for pound fighter are you basing it on their domination of opponents within their general or slightly higher weight categories?"

    Here is my reply.

    "I don't think there is any one defintion for p4p. The simplest way to
    put it is to state they are the 10 best boxers of all time. I look at
    it as a guy who was great all around and could do anything, was
    dominate and had a great record. Other factors such as beating
    fighters at higher weights is another way to look at it, I consider
    that but not to the degree some do. Robinson was 128-1-2 in his prime
    won titles at welter and middleweight during that span so he did move
    up in weight successfully. He could beat you going forwards and
    backwards, inside and out, boxing or slugging. He could beat you in so
    many different ways, outbox boxers and outpunch punchers. All around
    in terms of ability I don't think anyone was better., although there
    are other fighters in the conversation like Gans, Langford, Louis,
    Leonard, etc. Langford is easily in my top 10. I have moved him
    around I have had him as high as 3 or 4, so my list varies after the
    top 2 or 3. If there was more film on Sam I would feel more
    comofortable rating him higher, I feel the same way about Gans but I
    feel I know his record and ability better than most and have no
    problem rating him where I do. I am sure you feel the same way about
    Langford. Anybody in the top 10 can be argued into the first few
    slots. Greb and Armstrong are the only swarmers I have in the top 10
    and that is based soley on record. Overall I don't think swarmers are
    as good or complete as boxers or boxer punchers."

    The above explanation is why I rate Robinson above anyone else. He was just the best all around and his quality of opposition is less than Greb but still pretty damn good enough to rate where he does.

    Peace,
    Monte

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillyfan
    I would put chandler above zarate
    Zarate was 66-4 with 63 KOs. He had twice the career of Chandler (33-2, only 18 KOs), and had he not fought to an age well beyond the age Chandler retired at (27), he would have 2 fewer losses than he does (only 4). Two losses were in his very last two fights, at age 36+. And both those losses were at a higher weight, 122. Another, to Pintor, whom he dropped in the fight, was a highly disputed decision. The other one occurred when he moved up in weight and was stopped by a prime Wilfredo Gomez at 122. So, basically he never lost at 118 except for one highly disputed decision.

    How could anyone (outside Philadelphia) rank Chandler ahead of Zarate alltime?

    And, what was with that habit of Jeff's -- holding out his right glove and shaking it all the time?

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    I like Monte's lists very much. Though for me, it's hard to see Lennox Lewis's name up there in the heavyweight top 10; but I agree his record earns it.

    My admittedly partial exception to Monte's rankings is that I like Ray Leonard P4P above, not below, Duran. I figure that on any given night, Ray is able to beat anyone easier than Roberto could beat that same guy, and Roberto might lose to some fighters that Ray won't lose to (Hearns, Hagler, Pazienza as examples). And I think Ray's competition at his prime weight, 147, was better than Roberto's was at lightweight.

    Also think that head-to-head, despite the 1st loss to Duran in a close fight, Ray owns him going forward. As Azumah Nelson would own Jeff Fenech in all fights after their first one. There were good reasons for the 1st-fight decision losses by Ray and Azumah (respectively: chose wrong strategy, malaria) that wouldn't happen in "best vs. best" matches.

    Where on any of the Cox lists is the self-described "all-time best," Floyd Mayweather, Jr? Hey, his not making the lists doesn't bother me . . . He doesn't make my top 10 on these lists, either.

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    Monte

    do you factor in Head to Head at all when compiling your pound for pound or divisional lists?

    Example: An Aaron Pryor might not have as an impressive resume as a Ross or Canzi, but his placement ahead of them is based on how you see him doing agianst those two.

    And I do like how you place a fighter only once and in the division you see them at their best at. Likewise I do the same.

    Final question, do your divisional list tie into your Pound for Pound lists? It seems they do. In that an Ezzard Charles is rated ahead of Billy Conn at Light Heavyweight. Thus he would have a higher placement on your pound for Pound list as well.

    Simply curious as to your overall methodology.

    Thanks

    Hawk

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    Packey McFarland doesn't fit in any division ratings? Except for one mysterous early loss that nobody has any info about, never lost a fight, officially or on consensus newspaper decision, in over 100 fights.

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Frank
    Zarate was 66-4 with 63 KOs. He had twice the career of Chandler (33-2, only 18 KOs), and had he not fought to an age well beyond the age Chandler retired at (27), he would have 2 fewer losses than he does (only 4). Two losses were in his very last two fights, at age 36+. And both those losses were at a higher weight, 122. Another, to Pintor, whom he dropped in the fight, was a highly disputed decision. The other one occurred when he moved up in weight and was stopped by a prime Wilfredo Gomez at 122. So, basically he never lost at 118 except for one highly disputed decision.

    How could anyone (outside Philadelphia) rank Chandler ahead of Zarate alltime?

    And, what was with that habit of Jeff's -- holding out his right glove and shaking it all the time?

    quality of opponents. Jeff fought number 1 ranked and number 2 ranked opponents. Of his 66 fights,zarate fought 26 opponents with winning records. Also, jeffs 2 losses, one to muniz, which he he took the fight on a few days notice, but still went the distance, and his last fight against sandoval, where he received an injection for his shoulder just prior to the fight which severly affected him.
    Jeff was never stopped. Jeff called out both zarate and pintor, they chose to fight each other instead.
    Jeff liked to mix it up. Sometimes he would throw the lead right. When opponents caught on, he would wiggle the glove to distract them. He was voted into both WBHOF and IBHOF.

    When you print a lists of your personal top 10's, you're always going to get disagreements, especially on this board. Ring came out with an issue a few months ago, dream fights where they matched zarate against chandler. They had zarate winning. I showed it to Jeff who disagreed.

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    In regards to which boxing styles are the most effective, I am pragmatic. Moreover, certain fighters who were swarmers could be quite different when it comes to their boxing styles. For instance, it is true that Harry Greb usually fought in a very aggressive, unorthodox manner and tried to outwork his opponents by throwing a lot of punches in order to take full advantage of his tremendous stamina, but consider the fact that he was very quick, hard to hit with a solid blow and had effective footwork in addition to being known for his ring generalship.

    One would think that Greb's usual fighting style would play right into Jack Dempsey's hands in sparring sessions, but it appears that he gave him fits. I think that Greb made some adjustments for occasion and was a much more versatile fighter than someone like Rocky Marciano or Joe Frazier.

    - Chuck Johnston

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillyfan
    quality of opponents. Jeff fought number 1 ranked and number 2 ranked opponents. Of his 66 fights,zarate fought 26 opponents with winning records. Also, jeffs 2 losses, one to muniz, which he he took the fight on a few days notice, but still went the distance, and his last fight against sandoval, where he received an injection for his shoulder just prior to the fight which severly affected him.
    Jeff was never stopped. Jeff called out both zarate and pintor, they chose to fight each other instead.
    Jeff liked to mix it up. Sometimes he would throw the lead right. When opponents caught on, he would wiggle the glove to distract them. He was voted into both WBHOF and IBHOF.

    When you print a lists of your personal top 10's, you're always going to get disagreements, especially on this board. Ring came out with an issue a few months ago, dream fights where they matched zarate against chandler. They had zarate winning. I showed it to Jeff who disagreed.
    Chandler never faced a fighter the calibre of Gomez, nor that of a Pintor (who nearly all agree Zarate beat). Heck I don't even think he ever faced someone as good as Martinez, Davilla or Zamora either.
    Last edited by sweet_scientist; 08-11-2008 at 11:37 PM.

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck1052
    In regards to which boxing styles are the most effective, I am pragmatic. Moreover, certain fighters who were swarmers could be quite different when it comes to their boxing styles. For instance, it is true that Harry Greb usually fought in a very aggressive, unorthodox manner and tried to outwork his opponents by throwing a lot of punches in order to take full advantage of his tremendous stamina, but consider the fact that he was very quick, hard to hit with a solid blow and had effective footwork in addition to being known for his ring generalship.

    One would think that Greb's usual fighting style would play right into Jack Dempsey's hands in sparring sessions, but it appears that he gave him fits. I think that Greb made some adjustments for occasion and was a much more versatile fighter than someone like Rocky Marciano or Joe Frazier.

    - Chuck Johnston
    I couldn't agree with you more, Chuck. Greb almost defied categorization. Calling him a "swarmer" only gives partial credence to what he did in the ring.

    I've done a ton of research on Harry and the only way I can describe him was that he was an "Elusive pressure fighter". He combined the stamina of Bat Nelson or Armstrong, Pryor's punching angles/output, Ray Leonard's handspeed and Cassius Clay's legs. They used to speculate that he had "rubber" in his knees with the way he bounced around all over the place after delivering a lightning fast, 8-10 punch combination.

    He achieved much more than Ray Robinson, against better opposition and in more weight classes.

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    Much More?

    I can understand "arguably More", but Much more?

    I look at the High level of Opp that Robby was facing right out of the gate and I think it is more than understandable if not reasonable to see why many point to his being the best pound for pound all time.

    His Pro debut was on the undercard of Zivic beating Armstrong for the Welterweight crown on Oct 4, of 1940. Oct 31st of 1941, he was facing and defeating the same Fritzie Zivic. And on his way to that bout, Robby defeated future Welterweight Champ Marty Servo and Future Lightweihgt Champ Sammy Angott.

    And let's recall Ray started out at Lightweight and became highly ranked there in his brief stay at 135, before growing out of the division. So one could say Robby made marked accomplishments at Light, Welter and Middle and challenged for the Light Heavy crown (albeit unsuccessfully). So it's not like Ray didn't himself make marks on multiple divisions.

    It's not as if the position that he is the best ever, is ludicrous. And it's not as if Robby's comp in of itself, was anything to sneeze at. Heck, I've just discussed the first year and 20 fights of Ray's career and already we are looking at top shelf opposition and accomplishments.

    I have no issue with someone making the argument for Greb either. But I think we can all see why Robby get's this call as often as he does.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 08-12-2008 at 08:06 AM.

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
    Chandler never faced a fighter the calibre of Gomez, nor that of a Pintor (who nearly all agree Zarate beat). Heck I don't even think he ever faced someone as good as Martinez, Davilla or Zamora either.
    I'm with you, Sweet.

    No disrespect, Philly.

    But, as to a couple of items you noted,

    "Jeff called out both zarate and pintor, they chose to fight each other instead... Ring came out with an issue a few months ago, dream fights where they matched zarate against chandler. They had zarate winning. I showed it to Jeff who disagreed."

    I believe everybody considered Zarate and Pintor the class of the bantams at the time they fought each other, like undisputedly. Fans wanted Zarate vs. Pintor . . . not Chandler.

    As to Jeff disagreeing with The Ring's prognosis, he could be right I suppose, but he is hardly an unbiased observer.

    Also, much as I liked him, I can only wonder how many more losses he would have had if he had not quit at age 28. Or had gotten into the ring with Zamora or Gomez . . .

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    In 1979

    Was Jeff Chandler making enough noise that his calling out either Zarate or Pintor, could be taken as anything other than a rising prospect wanting to jump into the big pond?

    In late 1980, at the time he had defeated Solis, I can see his chanllenges being taken seriously, but by that time, Zarate was in retirement.

    Any Call Outs, prior to the Solis victory, can't be taken too seriously. Heck look at any boxing magazine ratings from around the time of Zarate Pintor and Chandler wasn't even in the top 10 at 118.

    A full Year later in and around mid 1980, and Chandler was indeed making a splash that was gaining noteriety.

    As an Aside, I think Zarate crumbles Chandler inside of 7 rounds. And I have always thought that while Chandler would be the favorite agianst Pintor, I see Lupe winning that matchup via decision.

    RE Monte's list: I understand that whenever someone publically makes their personal lists avaialble for others to view, that they open themselves up to comments, criticisms, queries and questioning of their sanity.

    Let's remember though: More often than not, one who actually puts their list out there for viewing, hasn't thrown the list together hastily and hard research and thought has gone into it. As is the case with Mr. Cox's.

    I don't agree with everything he has on his lists either. How would that be possible. No one list is going to be RIGHT. I have my own lists. I THINK it's right. Becuase it's MY list. But I dont' think it's gospel.

    Personally, when critiquing a list like these, I prefer that the one doing the critiquing would also present THEIR personal List, cite the reasons why they think their's is in the order it is, while at the same time, questioning and critiquing the orginal printed list. A compare and contrast if you will. With meat behind the potatoes.

    It's so easy to point fingers and criticize. Lay out your OWN list and make your cases for your differences of opinion.

    To me, that is the way to discuss these. "I've shown you mine, you show me yours and then lets discuss." Accountability on both sides of the discussion.

    But that's just my opinion.

    I could be wrong.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 08-12-2008 at 09:18 AM.

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    I posted this some months ago as to why I place Greb over Robinson and it illustrates why, although I don't think it ludicrous to have SRR at no. 1, I still find it hard to justify when the following is considered:

    "Harry's quality of opposition is incredible and seems to far outstrip Robby's when you compare records. More Hall of Famers on Greb's ledger. He beat everyone, from top welterweights to top heavyweights. And has any fighter in history beaten more champions, title claimants and top contenders(MULTIPLE times)?- Gene Tunney, Mickey Walker, Tommy Loughran, Maxie Rosenbloom, Jack Dillon, Mike McTigue, Battling Levinsky, Tommy Gibbons, Jimmy Slattery, Billy Miske, Frank Klaus, Johnny Wilson, Mike O'Dowd, Eddie McGoorty, George Chip, Mike Gibbons, Jeff Smith, Augie Ratner, Lou Bogash, Leo Houck, Al McCoy, Soldier Bartfield, Chuck Wiggins, Bartley Madden, Gunboat Smith, Bill Brennan, Charlie Weinert, Clay Turner, Bob Moha, Young Ahearn, Buck Crouse, Gus Christie, Willie Meehan, Jack Renault, Kid Norfolk(though some dispute this claim), Jimmy Delaney, Allentown Joe Gans.....

    Man, it makes the head spin."

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    Counter Point

    I think it’s easy to justify Robinson when his resume includes wins over the following fighters ranging from Lightweight to Middleweight:

    10- top 10 contender
    #-Faced Multiple times
    CH-Champion
    H-HOFer (Ray Faced 12 different HOFer's and Beat 10 of them. I think Greb faced 10 and beat 9, although someone can double check for me.)


    Pete Lello-10
    Marty Servo-CH,#
    Sammy Angott-10,#,CH,H
    Fritzie Zivic-10,#,CH,H
    Norman Rubio-10
    Tony Motisi-10
    Jake Lamotta-10,#,CH,H
    Izzy Jannanzo-10 #
    Jackie Wilson-10 #
    Ralph Zanelli-10
    Henry Armstrong-10,CH,H
    Vic Dellicurti-10,#
    Jose Basora-10,#
    Tommy Bell-10,#
    Georgie Abrams-10
    Jimmy Doyle-10
    Bernard Docusen-10
    Kid Gavilan-10,#,CH,H
    Steve Belloise-10
    George Costner-10,#
    Ray Barnes-10
    Robert Villemain-10,#
    Charley Fusari-10
    Holly Mims-10
    Randy Turpin-10,#,CH,H
    Carl Bobo Olson-10,#,CH,H
    Rocky Graziano-10,CH,H
    Rocky Castellani-10
    Gene Fullmer-10,#,CH,H
    Carmen Basilio-10,#,CH,H
    Denny Moyer-10
    Ralph Dupas-10
    Aaron Wade-10
    Artie Levine-10

    Also faced the following whom Ray does not hold official wins over. Most were after Robinson was well past his prime.

    Ralph Tiger Jones-10
    Paul Pender-10,#,CH
    Terry Downes-10,CH
    Joey Giardello-10,CH,H
    Joey Maxim-10,CH,H
    Stan Harrington-10
    Joey Archer-10

    Add to it, Ray was facing High Calibre opposition within a year of Turning pro, was Ranked Highly at Lightweight, prior to moving to 147, where he never lost a bout, was champion and reliquished that title without having lost it. Won the Middleweight title 5 times. Challenged for the Light Heavyweight title (And how many highly ranked Lightweights have challenged for the Light Heavyweight crown, unsuccessful or otherwise?). Was champion as late as 38 Years old. Was facing Highly ranked contenders into his mid 40's and the last fighter he faced, Joey Archer, recieved a title shot at Emile Griffith based on his win over a 45 year old Robinson and was VERY competitive with Griff in Both challenges.

    Never will I scoff at the resume of Harry Greb. But Robby's resume, and accomplishments and the length of championship level status, as well as his skills, easily and without much argument, bolsters his position as the greatest fighter that ever lived.

    One has as good an argument as the other does IMO.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 08-12-2008 at 03:20 PM.

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    I have Ezzard Charles's resume as just as good if not better than both Greb and Robinson.

    3 wins over Moore, 1 over Louis, I think at least one over Walcott, and a lenght of greats and near great at middle and LHW. Great fights with Rocky.

    Could anyone with a little more knowledge weight in on this guy.

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    Charles is in my Top 10 Lb for Lb

    Moore, Burley, Maxim, Bivins, Marshall, Ray, Louis, Walcott, Lesnevich, Baksi, Barone, Oma,Layne, Basora, Tunero Overlin, Yarosz.

    The only LH I can see above Ez is Langford.

    Hawk

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    Thank you. His win over Walcott is a big deal to me. I think Walcott was a great tactical boxer and strong puncher. I love his stlye in the ring.

    Thanks again

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    And While Ez

    Has TWO official wins over Jersey Joe, he probably should have 3, as the decision in thier 4th meeting, was not well recieved for very good reasons.

    One thing though, on the list of excellent fighters Charles faced and defeated, Walcott actually would rank no higher than 3rd. Burley and Moore easily finish #1 and #2 on the Quality of opp list. And going 5-0 agianst those two, IMO is pretty damn special.

    Heck going 5-0 agianst Joey Maxim was pretty special as well.

    Hawk

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    As great as Robinsons' and Charles' resumes are . . .Greb's in my opinion stands clearly on top. It's literally almost unbelievable.

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Frank
    I'm with you, Sweet.

    No disrespect, Philly.

    But, as to a couple of items you noted,

    "Jeff called out both zarate and pintor, they chose to fight each other instead... Ring came out with an issue a few months ago, dream fights where they matched zarate against chandler. They had zarate winning. I showed it to Jeff who disagreed."

    I believe everybody considered Zarate and Pintor the class of the bantams at the time they fought each other, like undisputedly. Fans wanted Zarate vs. Pintor . . . not Chandler.

    As to Jeff disagreeing with The Ring's prognosis, he could be right I suppose, but he is hardly an unbiased observer.

    Also, much as I liked him, I can only wonder how many more losses he would have had if he had not quit at age 28. Or had gotten into the ring with Zamora or Gomez . . .

    no disrespect taken. we all have our opinions. jeff retired at the peak of his career or close to it. The eye doctor told him after cataract surgery another punch and he could lose his eyesight. That scared him enough to turn in his gloves. The question is not how many more losses he would have had, rather how many more wins.

    3 quick stories about Jeff.

    1. He said Pintor sent one of his sparring partners to fight him. I'll have to ask him the name again. Jeff says after the fight, the sparring partner told jeff he could beat pintor. The sparring partner went back to pintor and Jeff doesn't know if he said anything, all he knows is Pintor never fought him.
    2. Gomez accompanied a fighter to his match against jeff. At the weigh in, jeff says gomez made a show of looking intensly at the scale while jeff weighed in. Jeff basically said to Gomez to sit his ass down and that he would have plenty of time to look at the scale when they fought. Jeff said Gomez jaw dropped to the ground.

    Those stories are straight from jeff, don't shoot the messenger. you can ask him yourself at the IBHOF.

    3. When pintor was inducted in the WBHOF, a reporter asked him his biggest regret. he said his biggest regret was he did not fight Jeff champion vs champion. I told that to jeff and he got a little heated. He said pintor can say that now, but he chased pintor around the globe and he refused to fight him.

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    Philly,

    All good, interesting stories. I don't doubt 'em.

    But, as to Gomez . . . I think he would have killed Chandler. And nothing artistic about it, just another brutal KO for Gomez on a virtually 100% KO record. Gomez was not only bigger and the harder puncher, he was the better boxer and a gifted, beautiful boxer to watch, with among the best foot movement ever seen at any weight.

    I think Jeff would have been overmatched if they were both 118, but way out in another league if he'd stepped up to 122.

    Only my opinion, of course.

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    I'm going to e-mail russell peltz and ask what light he can shed on offers made to pintor, gomez, and zarate. Gomez well may have beaten Jeff, but Jeff was never stopped, he was always in shape, still is. i should know this, but was Jeff ever knocked off his feet?

    one more Jeff story i've probably told before.
    Jeff said Murata hit him with the best combination ever. A left then a right, followed up by a headbutt, and finished off with a shot in the groin. He said after that, he knew he was in for a long night.

  27. #27
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    Re: Counter Point

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins

    10- top 10 contender
    #-Faced Multiple times
    CH-Champion
    H-HOFer (Ray Faced 12 different HOFer's and Beat 10 of them. I think Greb faced 10 and beat 9, although someone can double check for me.)


    Pete Lello-10
    Marty Servo-CH,#
    Sammy Angott-10,#,CH,H
    Fritzie Zivic-10,#,CH,H
    Norman Rubio-10
    Tony Motisi-10
    Jake Lamotta-10,#,CH,H
    Izzy Jannanzo-10 #
    Jackie Wilson-10 #
    Ralph Zanelli-10
    Henry Armstrong-10,CH,H
    Vic Dellicurti-10,#
    Jose Basora-10,#
    Tommy Bell-10,#
    Georgie Abrams-10
    Jimmy Doyle-10
    Bernard Docusen-10
    Kid Gavilan-10,#,CH,H
    Steve Belloise-10
    George Costner-10,#
    Ray Barnes-10
    Robert Villemain-10,#
    Charley Fusari-10
    Holly Mims-10
    Randy Turpin-10,#,CH,H
    Carl Bobo Olson-10,#,CH,H
    Rocky Graziano-10,CH,H
    Rocky Castellani-10
    Gene Fullmer-10,#,CH,H
    Carmen Basilio-10,#,CH,H
    Denny Moyer-10
    Ralph Dupas-10
    Aaron Wade-10
    Artie Levine-10

    Also faced the following whom Ray does not hold official wins over. Most were after Robinson was well past his prime.

    Ralph Tiger Jones-10
    Paul Pender-10,#,CH
    Terry Downes-10,CH
    Joey Giardello-10,CH,H
    Joey Maxim-10,CH,H
    Stan Harrington-10
    Joey Archer-10

    Hawk
    Actually, Greb faced 12 HOFers and beat ALL of them, in some cases numerous times. And let us also not forget that four of the middleweight champions on Robby's record became middleweight champs BECAUSE THEY BEAT ROBINSON(Turpin, Fullmer, Basilio, Pender).

    Take a deep breath. Here goes some of Greb's highlight victories:

    Gene Tunney- #,CH, H,
    (the first victory alone trumps any single accomplishment in SRR's career, IMO. Add that Gene only clearly got the best of Harry in 2 of their 5 bouts, many decrying one of Gene's wins as an outright robbery(commisioner Muldoon as well as various sportswriters) and the "draw" many thought could have gone to Greb. I have many newspaper clipping from ALL of their bouts.)

    Mickey Walker- CH, H
    (also trumps any single accomplishment in SRR's career, IMO)

    LIGHT-HEAVYWEIGHTS:

    Tommy Loughran- #, CH, H (fought him SIX times, Harry won 4 with 1 draw)
    Maxie Rosenbloom- CH, H (Greb thrashed him)
    Jimmy Slattery- CH, H
    Jack Dillon- #, CH, H(Harry won both bouts by a landslide)
    Battling Levinsky- #, CH, H (fought 6 times, Harry winning ALL)
    Mike McTigue- #, CH (Harry won BOTH by a landslide)
    Kid Norfolk- #, 10, H (Greb won first bout, Norfolk the 2nd by DQ)
    Tommy Gibbons- #, 10, H (4 bouts. Gibs won 1st 2. Greb got his number and whipped him badly second 2. Final fight considered best of Greb's career)

    Billy Miske- #, 10, (3 fights, Greb won 2, 1 draw. Miske much better than disease ravaged pug who fought Dempsey. Read Callis' article on him to get an idea of just how good this guy was)

    Lou Bogash- 10, (look at his record. Amazing)
    Chuck Wiggins- #, 10, ( Fought 9 times. Harry won 7 with 2 draws).
    Jimmy Delaney- #, 10 (Greb won ALL 3 fights)
    Allentown Joe Gans- 10 (much avoided black fighter)
    Billy Shade- #, 10 (Greb won BOTH fights)
    Jack Reddick- 10
    Art Weigand- 10

    Middleweights:

    Mickey Walker- 'Nuff Said.
    Tiger Flowers- #, CH, H (3 bouts, Greb won one. Narrowly lost second[some thought he won]. Third bout considered a robbery in Flower's favor by writers, commisioner and Tunney[observer and friend to both])

    Mike Gibbons- #, 10, H [title claimant](2 bouts. Gibs won close 6 rounder. Greb won 10 rounder)

    George Chip- #, CH (4 bouts. Chip won 1st 2. Greb got his number and won second 2)

    Frank Klaus- CH, H
    Mike O'Dowd- CH
    Eddie McGoorty- 10, [title claimant] Future HOFer??
    Jeff Smith- #, 10, [title claimant] (7 bouts. Greb won 6 with 1 draw)Future HOFer??
    Johnny Wilson- #, CH (3 bouts, ALL won by Greb)
    Al McCoy- #, CH (Greb won BOTH)
    Leo Houck- #, 10 [title claimant] (Greb won ALL three. Check Houck's record. Outstanding)
    Augie Ratner- #, 10 (Greb won BOTH. see above comment. Record incredible)
    Frank Mantell- 10, (title claimant)
    Gus Christie- #, 10 (Greb won ALL 3)
    Buck Crouse- 10
    Young Ahearn- 10
    Bob Moha- #, 10 (Greb won ALL 6)
    Joe Borrell- #, 10 (Greb won 2 with 1 draw)
    Fay Keiser- #, 10 (Greb won 7 with 2 draws)
    Jackie Clarke- #, 10 (Greb won 3 with 1 draw)
    Ted Moore- #, 10 (Greb won BOTH)
    Jimmy Darcy- #, 10 (Greb won ALL 3)
    Willie Brennan- #, 10 (Greb won BOTH)
    Whitey Wenzel- #, 10 (Greb won 6 with 2 draws)
    Soldier Bartfield- #, 10 (Greb won 3 with 1 draw)
    Tommy Robson- #, 10 (Greb won ALL 3)
    Terry Martin- 10
    Silent Martin- 10
    Bryan Downey- 10
    Frank Moody- 10
    Roland Todd- 10

    HEAVYWEIGHTS

    Bill Brennan- #, 10 (Greb won ALL 4 fights)
    Jack Renault- #, 10 (Greb won BOTH)
    Charlie Weinert- 10
    Bartley Madden- #, 10(?) (Greb won ALL 3)
    Gunboat Smith- # (past prime)
    Homer Smith- 10(?)
    Martin Burke- 10(?)
    Willie Meehan- #, 10(?) (Greb won BOTH)
    Bob Roper- #, 10(?) (Greb won ALL 6)
    Clay Turner- #, 10(?) (Greb won ALL 7)


    There's many more, but no need to list because I feel that Greb's superior resume is more than evident here. The only fighter who really even comes close is Benny Leonard.
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 08-13-2008 at 05:00 AM.

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    And lest we forget, Greb accomplished much of all this WHILE FIGHTING BLIND IN ONE EYE.
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 08-13-2008 at 05:16 AM.

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    Lest we forget

    Fullmer, Basilio and Pender all beat Robinson in his mid thirties after a 2 year retirement.

    Greb was 32 for his last fight. About the age Ray was when he first retired.

    Every account of Greb's two bouts with Flowers whether they say he could have arguably won the fights or not, CLEARLY indicate that Harry was indeed showing significant signs of slowing down. And in a 13 year career with so many fights, it's not surprising.

    Ray didn't have the volume that Greb had, But he still aged just the same. Ray had a 25 year career and while there were some pretty remarkable highlights during his post retirement 12 year career, He certainly was no longer the same fighter any longer. What is amazing to me though that into his late 30's and into his 40's up to the age of 44 when he finally retired, he was STILL a top 10 contender level fighter.

    That his last bout a loss to Joey Archer, was to determine who got a shot at Emile Griffith, and that Archer took Emile to the limit twice in very close bouts, is a testament to that longevity of Ray's.

    My Latest Boxing Register didn't have Norfolk or Klaus in the IBHOF, that's why I missed those two in my count. My bad.

    About the fighters you are listing as being top 10 contenders that Harry fought.

    Here is the difference of what I did when I listed the fighters that Ray fought as being top 10 contenders. They were top 10 contenders WHEN Ray fought them. What you did Surf, while certainly padding the stats for Harry, was juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust a Tad misleading.

    Example: Bob Roper you have listed as a top 10 heavyweight, admitedly with a question mark. So first off, we have no idea if he EVER was a top 10 heavyweight and secondly, Roper was in the midst of a losing streak where he had lost 10 of 16 bouts. Not exactly a top flight fighter in ANYONE's book.

    Example 2:Allentown Joe Gans was in the midst of a similar streak to Roper's, when Harry fought him, although not nearly as inept. But certainly, there is no way Gans was a ranked fighter when the two squared off.

    Example 3: Gus Christie was in the midst of a stretch of 18 fights in whihc he lost 14 of them. Now during this stretch Christie was fighting several quality foes.....but he wasn't beating any of them. And no matter how you slice this, this ain't a top 10 contender.

    Example 4: Chuck Wiggins, (already discussed in our conversation about Tommy Gibbons), was another fighter on Grebs record who was going through a rough stretch when Harry fought him. Like Christie he was facing a lot of tough customers during this stretch...but he was also LOSING to all of these tough customers as well. He held Harry to a couple of draws and was able to "shade" Mike Gibbons at the end of Mike's career (Mike turned the tables in the rematch). This stretch took place from 1920 to 1923. I think it's highly doubtful was a ranked fighter during this stretch. And since I have been doing some research on him lately, I think it's highly doubtful Wiggins was ever a top 10 fighter during any stretch of his career.

    Understand you wanting to pad the stats and all, but this type of stuff is stretching it a bit.

    Hawk

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    Re: Cox's Corner's All Time Divisional Ratings

    Don't really see how Greb beating a much smaller and still to hit his absolute peak Mickey Walker is a better win for Greb than say Robinson's wins over a near peak Kid Gavilan. Kid was probably at his peak by the time of the second fight.

    I'd love to hear a breakdown of Greb's and Robinson's opponents WHEN they fought Greb and Robinson. Hawk has gone some way to providing that with Robinson, but there's probably a lot more that can be said....
    Last edited by sweet_scientist; 08-13-2008 at 09:48 AM.

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