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Thread: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

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    Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    I realize that for the Arguello stalwarts (and I, myself, rate Alexis highly in three weightclasses), this will seem a ridiculous match-up. But . . . it can't be denied that Arguello had his difficulties with quicker, smaller men on occasion. I just feel that the combination of Hamed's keen reflexes, off-the-charts unorthodoxy, potent, two-handed power (certainly as hard or harder than Andy Ganigan, Jose Torres, or Jose Luis Ramirez), and supreme self-confidence just might combine with Arguello's intermittent tendency to start slowly and bring about a real surprise in the first several rounds.

    Am I right?

    Wrong?

    Brain dead?

    PeteLeo (who knows that all you have to do to alienate some boxing observers totally is credit Hamed with any ability at all).

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    I could see this sort of being like Costello-Arguello, with the faster, stronger fighter getting the jump on Alexis but then getting nailed by a bomb that turns it all around. Naseem could hurt Alexis with his power, no doubt. But what gets him killed IMO is his impulsiveness when he does. Alexis is cool in the ring, Hamed is not. He'd jump all over Arguello when he hurt him, going for the wild KO and that's when a right hand would detonate off his chin, putting him to sleep.

    (BTW, I know Hamed is superior to Costello. Just using it as an example. Billy was a strong jr. Welter. Hamed was a strong feather. Arguello's shots are obviously going to have even more crippling power at feather than jr. welter. Not to mention speed).

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Surf, I love your analysis. I can't stand Hamed but recognize he had some outstanding physical ability.

    However, Alexis, while slightly slower, is the cool one, the better & less emotional thinker, and only Vilomar Fernadez, to my recollection, beat Alexis with cuteness when Arguello was prime; but this fight would be scheduled for 12 or 15 rounds, depending on the era, and I don't think Hamed can avoid being nailed over that period. Or, Alexis might break a couple of Naz's ribs in there if he can't reach the head right away.

    If Naz tries anything outlandish, like holding, hitting, and posturing at about the same time, the ref will stop that; such is the respect that Arguello would garner even from the ref.

    I also figure that what Barrera could do, Arguello could do better, and with more power. I'd be pretty confident in a 12th round KO win for Alexis.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    I think Hamed has about zero chance if you take him out of the UK for this bout. I always thought the guy was like cuntrymen Bruno/Hide/Benn and just loved that home cooking & they always put forth big efforts in their backyards. When it was their turn to be the road warriors, they didn't look so good & Hamed sure didn't either against Barrera. That version of Hamed gets starched in about 5 rounds.

    If the fight takes place in the UK, I like the Hamed chances much better. He'd put forth a better effort & would be a live underdog. But Alexis has a lot of scalps on his record of tough hombres & I think he'd ultimately weather the storms for the win. He might have to climb off the deck to land it, but that straight right hand Arguello set up would definately land clean against that defense & chin way up in the air.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    I just never rated Hamed and saw no physical outstanding ability. He was a poser and a clown who had zero boxing fundamentals and IMO, Alexis beats him at any weight in any fashion. Too tough and durable and versatile. Hamed is no Pea Whitaker and that leaping in and out with telegraphed shots will not win him a decision.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Not surprisingly this is beginning to look unanamous, I have little doubt that initially Hamed could lead Alexis something of a Dance, But what then ? Hamed's earlier opporsition may have been a little intimidated by his showboating, and become a little hesitant to commit, those who didnt found some success like Alicea and Kelly in putting Hamed down, albeit not keeping him there, I think Alexis initially Adopts a "Track Him to Whack Him " Approach, and somewhere during the Mid Rounds, A big Streight right hand of Alexis finds the Target, Hamed can take a punch, so i can imaging him arising and getting on his Bike to see out the round, but the momentum will have turned, Alexis the patient stalker will now be in hot persuit, If Hamed decides to Fight, and barring a Lottery Shot, i would expect Alexis to Punish Hamed and maybe force the Ref intervention with Hamed's Limbo-Rag Doll movements prompting it, ( to much Protesting Afterwards?) other then that, Hamed might spoend the rest of the fight on his Bike to much booing to see out the distence, But i do think Alexis would catch up with him and his long streight punches would be the Factor in stopping Hamed Jumping in with his big weird Angle shots. Alexis Timing would trump Hamed speed, Track him to Whack him Indeed.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Walshb: to say Hamed had no 'physical outstanding ability' is to sell his undoubted power very short!

    I pick Arguello by stoppage but I think Arguello's relative predictability - he's going to stalk you at a steady pace - would allow Hamed into the fight. Barrera's success against Naseem came from avoiding being hit and frustrating the by-then totally one-dimensional Hamed. Alexis wont frustrate Hamed and Naseem's handspeed and power will trouble Arguello. In fact I think Alexis ships some punishment early in the fight. Alexis, however, stands up to it. Argeullo gets Naseem's measure by round 4 and Hamed starts to get hit by the right hand: he goes down, gets back up, ships some more punishment; goes down, gets back up and so on until the ref stops it with Naseem badly hurt but on his feet around the midway point.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Quote Originally Posted by walshb
    I just never rated Hamed and saw no physical outstanding ability. He was a poser and a clown who had zero boxing fundamentals and IMO, Alexis beats him at any weight in any fashion. Too tough and durable and versatile. Hamed is no Pea Whitaker and that leaping in and out with telegraphed shots will not win him a decision.
    Agree, Agree!!

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Barrera had no problem snapping Hamed's head back with straight punches. Arguello lands one of those on Hamed's kisser and it won't just be his head snapping back.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Arguello KO 2.

    Hamed did well against fighters that couldn't really punch (ie: Tom Johnson, Bungu, McCullough), where he could be as sloppy and wide-open as he wanted and didn't have to worry about getting hurt. One of the few punchers he fought, a shopworn Kevin Kelley, had him on the floor several times before Hamed caught him with a wild desperation punch. Weak-chinned Augie Sanchez had him in similar trouble too, before Hamed rallied to take him out. In Arguello, not only would Hamed be facing someone who could punch like a mutherf*cker, but also a physical freak and genuine great fighter (better than anyone Hamed ever faced, in fact). Unless he just shows up looking to survive, this match spells doom for him.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Was Hamed ever actually notably hurt or wobbled in any of his fights?.

    I was no fan of him and have never really re-watched any of them other than barrera, but i don't recall him ever being on shaky legs.

    He just seemed to get buffeted about a lot because of terrible footwork that often left him standing square on and leaving his chin dangling up the air.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Quote Originally Posted by starlingstomp
    He just seemed to get buffeted about a lot because of terrible footwork that often left him standing square on and leaving his chin dangling up the air.
    And against a concussive puncher like Arguello, that would land him in the hospital.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    I must admit that Alexis Arguello is one of my all time favorite fighters much like Tommy Hearns, Hagler, and Leonard. Power wise Hamed could hurt Arguello, but Arguello is too fundamentally sound to be beaten by Hamed. Hamed was decked 3 times by Kevin Kelly and was embarrassed by Marco A. Barrera. Hamed's quickness and ackwardness would initially trouble Arguello before he zeros in takes Hamed apart piece by piece. Arguello either wins by a decisive decision or a mid-late stoppage.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Quote Originally Posted by Rafael
    And against a concussive puncher like Arguello, that would land him in the hospital.
    I don't disagree.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    I think what we saw with Barrera, you would see much more in a fight wit Arguello. Remember the 1st fight with Pryor was close until that last fateful rounds.

    Now Hamed had power and speed to, and was unorthodox, so it is not inconcievalbe the this would be a great fight, but counter punching ability of Barrera who through in series of punches, 1-2 and 1-2-3, which completley through off Hamed's timing, game plan, and his own countepunching ability. Arguello had great power, was a great boxer, and through combinations.

    I think this would be a long night for Hamed

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Quote Originally Posted by wpink
    I think this would be a long night for Hamed
    Well, I don't think it would be all that long a night for him . . . Maybe eight, nine rounds . . .

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    I think you guys are minimizing a very dangerous early-rounds period in this bout. Alexis was hardly a speed demon, certainly not as hyper as the Flushing Flash or Alicea, and he often liked to feel his way through a half dozen rounds or so . . . so I think Hamed has a realistic chance of pulling off a blitz for nine or twelve minutes.

    My wallet would force me to bet on Arguello, but if the "unthinkable" happened (the way it did with Torres), I wouldn't be among the stunned witnesses muttering, Never in a million years did I see that coming." PeteLeo.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    I can see Hamed hurting him, maybe knocking him down, but I can't picture him finishing Arguello off. I could be wrong, but I like Alexis in six or less.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    height would be a big problem for the prince here.

    i think arguello would stuff naseems head up his own ass ...honestly. would have loved to seen it.

    greg

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteLeo
    I think you guys are minimizing a very dangerous early-rounds period in this bout. Alexis was hardly a speed demon, certainly not as hyper as the Flushing Flash or Alicea, and he often liked to feel his way through a half dozen rounds or so . . . so I think Hamed has a realistic chance of pulling off a blitz for nine or twelve minutes.
    But isn't that what he was supposed to do against Barrera? If he couldn't step on the gas against Barrera (who fought at a snail's pace the entire fight, not just the early rounds), I don't see how he can do it against Arguello, who could do everything Barrera did in that fight, but better.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Barrera didn't beat Hamed. He beat what was left of Hamed.

    A convenient rationalization, I know, but the signs were all there going into the Marco match. Hamed had done everything he wanted to in boxing and was ready for what came after it. Had the Barrera bout taken place a couple of years earlier, I certainly have questions about that outcome.

    Like I said before, any betting money that came from my wallet would go down on Arguello, but I do believe the first three rounds or so would have been a minefield for Alexis. Hamed was miles better than Andy Ganigan. PeteLeo.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    I share the view that if Barrera had fought Hamed when the fight was first suggested that Naseem may have won for two reasons. Hamed was a more rounded and more committed fighter earlier in his career - less focused solely on the KO punch - and the young Marco was a more aggressive pressure fighter who was more willing to take a shot. Naseem lands his punches on this Marco and has a good chance of stopping him.

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    I'd have loved

    to have seen them both meet somewhere in the middle.

    Pete and Paulie both make excellent points about Hamed being a better fighter earlier in his career.

    In 96 had it been the Marco from the McKinney fight vs Hamed from the Medina or Alicea fight, I say you have a pickem matchup. Marco while much more aggressive was tough as nails. That said, later in 96' you saw saw some mental and dedication issues that would plague Hamed later on, in Marco's performance agianst Junior Jones.

    Marco did become a more well rounded fighter later on, especially with his performance agianst Hamed. Take that Barrera and pit him agianst the earlier version of Hamed and I see a much closer bout than the actual fight they did have, but I would take Marco.

    I do agree in 96 when this was orginally being discussed, Seeing Hamed come out on top is certainly a very logical outcome. I still say Marco deserves pickem odds, but there is nothing wrong with a Hamed selection.

    Pete, Hamed had unreal power and CERTAINLY was more talented than the Hawaiian Bomber, but do you think Naseem hit as hard and Ganigan? Andy's pop at Lightweight was extremely impressive.

    I agree that Arguello has his a minefield to get through in the first three rounds with Hamed at 126 due to Naseem's power, speed and awkwardness. But I feel very confident that he navigates his way through with his steely determination and immense pride to say nothing of his toughness.

    Arguello by dramatic and conclusive 4th round KO after a few precarious moments early in the bout.

    Hawk

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    Sorry fellas,

    I just don't see any other outcome at any other time between Naz and MAB

    Naz tried all his usual stupid tricks in their actual fight. They just didn't
    work against a solid and sound boxer. Yes, they worked against a lot of bums; but
    finally he meets quality and quality wins at a canter!

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    THink you might be missing the point

    Pete and Paulie brought up.

    When the fight was originally slated in 96' Marco did not truly fight as he did when he faced Hamed in 2001.

    Hamed was certainly a more focused fighter and Barrera was much more one dimensional.

    Now I think the fight is still a pickem' matchup, becuase Marco of the McKinney fight was very strong willed and a tough MFer. But THAT Barrera is NOT Outboxing or out cute-ing Hamed as he did in 2001. To win, he'd have to out tough and out punch him, as that is the way he fought.

    Not totally out of the question, but certainly a much tougher task for him to accomplish. More more so, becuase Hamed was a better fighter back then as well.

    BTW, biggest Barrera fan on this board, ANd I don't care for Hamed at all, so you know where my rooting interests would lie.

    Hawk

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    I don't think I am missing any point. Their points are too succinct for anyone to miss.

    I just happen to disagree with their point.

    I believe even a lesser or altered or different styled MAB beats Hamed.

    He beat Hamed in 2001 without breaking sweat, and I saw nothing in
    Hamed to indicate his own lapse into deficiency. Hamed was still young and
    was still the supposed best 126 lb fighter on the planet; and he was still trying his
    silly circus act style of 'boxing'

    I would pick Morales to do a number on Naz too.

    Maybe HAMED was a 'better' fighter back then because he was winning against
    less than stellar opposition. Maybe, just maybe, this was what people were seeing!

    He just didn't cut it against fighters with a decent chin and fighters with real quality!
    Last edited by walshb; 09-10-2008 at 10:38 AM.

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    You don't think the style

    Barrera employed agianst Hamed had anything to do with his success that night?

    And You really don't see differences in Hamed from Robinson, Medina and Alicea to even as early as the Kelley fight?

    And Barrera of 96', heck even from Morales 1, didn't fight like he did against Hamed. It was almost a Complete Transformation. Although Marco did employ the same strategy in his previous fight with great success agianst the pretty shopworn Jesus Salud.

    Using that style agianst Hamed COMPLETELY crossed him up as he expected the Barrera of Morales I. I think pretty much all of us did.

    All the credit to Barrera for altering his style and breathing brand new life into his career. I picked Marco to win that fight in 2001, but never did I Imagine he'd fight like that and win as easy as he did.

    In 1996 though, this is a completely different fight. Who knows. Maybe Marco pulls that style out again (similar to what he did in the Jones rematch, that I thought Marco won in 97.')

    But if he DOES fight like he did in 96' agianst McKinney and Hamed fights like he did that year, this is a MUCH tougher bout for Barrera.

    Not Unwinnable IMO, but a MUCH tougher task indeed.

    Hawk

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Steve Robinson, whom, until he fought Hamed, was almost undentable; and yet Hamed is knocking him back with pissy jabs. If ever a fight stunk of suspicion it was that. Maybe Robinson forgot to take his medicine before that sham affair!

    Kevin Kelley?

    C'mon, that was an absolute shell of man.

    In answer to your question? No, I didn't see any glaring deficiencies in Hamed when
    MAB whupped him. I simply saw a 27 year old feather get his ass handed to him
    by a man who knew how to box and was a quality fighter, and yet still, MAB had a lot left
    in reserve

    You and others can point to numerous fights where MAB boxed better or lesser or differently. It's really irrelevant, as styles make fights.
    The point is he boxed Hamed the way he boxed Hamed; and in doing so, he whupped him!

    You asked me if the style MAB employed against Hamed had anything to do with his success?

    Talk about stating the obvious. Of course it bloody did. It got him a comfortable win didn't it?

    He employed this style because he is that type of fighter, a QUALITY fighter; and regardless of what
    he did or did not do against other men is not the issue. He did what he had to against Hamed's style and won!
    Last edited by walshb; 09-10-2008 at 11:17 AM.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Hey, MAB beat Hamed at a canter: you cant argue with what is in front of your eyes so it's difficult to arue too hard with anyone who picks MAB over Hamed in 1996, 2001 or 2008.

    But, my eyes, and many others' too, also tell me that Hamed was on the downside by 2001. My eyes also tell me that Barrera in his younger days lacked the patience of the 2001 Marco and was prone to slugging it out. The 2001 fight tells us nothing about how MAB fairs with Naseem in a slugfest because Marco more or less avoided getting hit and fought off the back foot, although that fight did tell me that Hamed could stand up to Marco's best shots.

    A scenario in which Marco comes straight at Naseem presents the possibility of a very different outcome: tough as MAB is, he can be stopped. That scenario is, IMO, possible with the Junior-Feather version of Marco.

    Walsh, your argument seems to ignore the possibility that Marco's style against Hamed was a product of experience: what his fights with Jones, McKinney, Morales had taught him.
    Last edited by Paulie W; 09-10-2008 at 11:20 AM.

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    Re: Alexis Arguello vs. Naseem Hamed

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulie W
    Hey, MAB beat Hamed at a canter: you cant argue with what is in front of your eyes so it's difficult to arue too hard with anyone who picks MAB over Hamed in 1996, 2001 or 2008.

    But, my eyes, and many others' too, also tell me that Hamed was on the downside by 2001. My eyes also tell me that Barrera in his younger days lacked the patience of the 2001 Marco and was prone to slugging it out. The 2001 fight tells us nothing about how MAB fairs with Naseem in a slugfest because Marco more or less avoided getting hit and fought off the back foot, although that fight did tell me that Hamed could stand up to Marco's best shots.

    A scenario in which Marco comes straight at Naseem presents the possibility of a very different outcome: tough as MAB is, he can be stopped. That scenario is, IMO, possible with the Junior-Feather version of Marco.

    Walsh, your argument seems to ignore the possibility that Marco's style against Hamed was a product of experience: what his fights with Jones, McKinney, Morales had taught him.
    Paulie, that's just it. You and I saw differently regarding Hamed. I do not think he was on the downside at all. I just believe he met a real good fighter and was exposed, giving some of his hardened fans the perception that he was on the downside.

    MAB in 2001 was a more mature an complete fighter, yes, of course I believe at that stage he was a better fighter, but had they met 5 years earlier, I do not see much difference. MAB was more gung ho in the mid to late 90's, but that doesn't mean he would employ the gung ho tactics
    V Hamed had they met earlier!

    As for Hamed's power? His 1999 bout with McCullough really showed me something, despite Wayne's great chin, he was a blown up bantam
    meeting a feather who supposedly hit like a welter, and he (Hamed) struggled!
    Last edited by walshb; 09-10-2008 at 11:33 AM.

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