Liston's shoulder injury

**Enswell** · 09-14-2008, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by hagler04

I disagree. Liston after the 3rd doesn't use his left nearly as much as was per usual, and during the 6th he hardly threw any punches at all.

And as for the 6th round, it wasn't Clay 'schooling' Liston . .it was Clay throwing left jabs and Liston effectively slipping and ducking 95% of them.

Ali won fair and square, don't get me wrong, but the revisionist history surrounding Ali's "dominance" in the fight and Liston's "quit job" is more full of crap than an elephant's toilet.

Liston is unloading big time with the left in round five. Actually lunging with it at times. Less so in the sixth, but he's still using it. I don't see any indication of an injury, but that doesn't neccesarily mean there wasn't one. Maybe he was hurt and fighting through the pain. In my view, it's just not clear in the film.

**PD99** · 09-16-2008, 10:35 PM

Unfairly so, but Liston's background and connections have obviously cruelled objective scrutiny of the more contentious instances during his career.

However, imo, Liston did "appear" beaten and unenthused to continue when the fight was stopped. I'm not ragging him for that.

Any which way, Liston was going to be doing it tough but if the left shoulder was out, he had absolutely no chance of turning it around.

I do not question fighter's hearts, I compare them to the established courage and will of all time greats. All time greats who, in their prime or near enough to, would never yield.

Sonny had courage but I tend to think that it wasn't on the level of say, Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier, Ali etc.

In fantasy match ups in which one can envisage Liston doing it protractedly tough, one might also envisage Sonny losing his verve before ultimately dropping tools.

It's impossible to say for sure because the circumstances surrounding Liston's eventual surrender (injury to his all important left shoulder and the psychological effect of the increasingly frustating and humiliating fashion in which he was being beaten) have to be factored in.

Personally, I can't envisage any other HW doing the complete number on Liston that Ali did so, perhaps, in all other instances in which Liston in reasonably in the hunt he hangs tough to the finish.

**HE Grant** · 10-18-2008, 04:42 PM

I've been watching quite a bit of Liston bouts through Classic and I have to say that the guy was absolutely amazing and the way he threw it away against Ali continues to puzzle me ...

His period of fights from 58 - 61 show a level of talent and performance that was exceptional. He had terrific boxing skills, knew how to feint, had very good defense, could move around the ring, could hit to the head and to the body, and had an exceptional jab that would match up with the super heavyweights of the modern era. In addition, I think he may have been a better one punch hitter with either hand than Foreman or Shavers. His knockouts were unreal ...

His entire legacy has been destroyed because of the two Ali fights ...

A couple of things to keep in mind about the bouts. The first is that Liston was much older than listed. He had to be in his mid thirties for the first bout. He had long been invincible and really under trained for the bout. He then came up against the one fighter that could extend him and he quit ... no justification, a bad move but he simply quit ...

The second bout was a tank job. There is no way the Liston that took much bigger hitters bombs lays on the floor for thirty seconds from that powder puff shot Ali hit him with ....

These losses tarnished his image and legacy and they should but it is important to keep in mind that Liston really had an underworld mentality and existed in another reality ...

That being said, a 1960 Liston in my opinion was without question one of the greatest heavyweight fighters that ever lived and I say he beats Dempsey, Marciano, Foreman, Frazier, Bowe, Lewis, Holyfield and possibly Louis ...he really was something special ....

**Michael Frank** · 10-18-2008, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by HE Grant

I've been watching quite a bit of Liston bouts through Classic and I have to say that the guy was absolutely amazing ...

... a 1960 Liston in my opinion was without question one of the greatest heavyweight fighters that ever lived and I say he beats Dempsey, Marciano, Foreman, Frazier, Bowe, Lewis, Holyfield and possibly Louis ...he really was something special ....

Hello HE,

I have every Liston fight out there, I believe, and he was not 'amazing' to me. Big puncher, good fundamentals, but slow and predictable, esp. as to footwork. Thus, while I agree with most of your list of potential KO victims, I don't see him beating either Foreman (similar but bigger and stronger, and IMO beat better fighters), also Louis, who with those fast, short KO punches likely KOs Sonny. And Frazier has to have a good chance to flatten Sonny if he can land a couple of body shots before taking the inevitable head shots.

The others I agree with you on, except for Dempsey, whom I find hard to handicap here. Though of course with Marciano one has to wonder if he takes a licking and yet fights back (as I'd expect), what does Sonny do then?

**HE Grant** · 10-18-2008, 06:07 PM

Hey Michael,

I actually thought he moves around pretty well. He seemed to use it when he needed it ... The only fight I want to study again is the Machen and what Eddie did to compete and survive ...

**Surf-Bat** · 10-18-2008, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by HE Grant

That being said, a 1960 Liston in my opinion was without question one of the greatest heavyweight fighters that ever lived and I say he beats Dempsey, Marciano, Foreman, Frazier, Bowe, Lewis, Holyfield and possibly Louis ...he really was something special ....

I agree, especially in regards to Foreman, who as I've stated before, was only a "killer" when the opponent offered nothing in return. Hit him back and you had a chance to beat him. Sonny was faster, sturdier, was a better boxer and had a longer reach. He'd easily hit the plodding, wide-open Foreman. And eventually knock him out.

**Michael Frank** · 10-18-2008, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by HE Grant

Hey Michael,

I actually thought he moves around pretty well. He seemed to use it when he needed it ... The only fight I want to study again is the Machen and what Eddie did to compete and survive ...

Hello HE Grant,

And then, of course, you could rightfully say to me additionally that if Foreman destroyed Frazier twice, then Sonny should, also (if you feel he's better than George). So, you and I are getting closer and closer.

I think Sonny moved better than my post implied, but he just seemed so rigid and robotic (albeit not entirely slow) that "predictable" is the word I'd apply.

**HE Grant** · 10-18-2008, 08:47 PM

Look he did not move like Ali or Holmes but he seemed to move a lot better than Foreman, Marciano and other bombers ... not then Dempsey who actually had excellent foot movement in his prime ...