Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

[diggity]

Wow is that what is was on? Funny.

I revisited the interest of a RJJ-BHop rematch in my mind after the famous "60/40 I'll kick your ass" conversation between the 2 of them. Even though I've seen the fight at least twice prior, the next partial viewing reminded me why I never need to watch it again or a rematch of it when both guys are well past their best. Two safety first fighters who are getting slower & slower to pull the trigger? Don't kid yourself if you think BHop will be remotely as active versus RJJ as he was Pavlik. I'll catch the rerun out of curiousity but I'll pass on dumping a single cent into it live.

[hawk5ins]

Since I nearly fell asleep in a Bar (Didn't have HBO in 93') in downtown Boston, waiting to see the Bowe Fergusson bout (I actually thought that was going to be interesting in lieu of the Mercer first fight. YIKES!).

I could not beleive how terrible a fight between two young prospects looking to prove to the world how good they were and to make a name for themselves, ended up being.

I've heard a comparison to Leonard Benitez being made in that it was a "great technical Battle".

Horse shit. It ended up being worse than HEARNS BENITEZ! It was two safety first fighters affraid to committ and or make a mistake and thus look bad.

Problem was, in BOTH taking that approach, they BOTH looked bad. Thought Jones won by about 3 points, but was so disinterested, that at the time, it didn't really matter WHO won. I was just glad it was over.

And then on to the "Real" fight in Bowe vs the Boogey Man!

I had visions of Carl Williams vs. Jesse Fergusson all over agian for that fight!

D'Oh!

Hawk

[diggity]

BHop was tentative in the face of that speed & RJJ did just enough to keep anything close to a fight from breaking out. I don't see how it would be any different now except for even more posing and less punching.

The main reason I am buying this fight is for JC. I would like to see him earn & keep his 0 and also because JC is a very good fighter with known vulnerabilities. That leaves for some drama in the fight especially when in with someone who will be faster than him & has something big to prove.

[sr71ko]

Normally Gordoom I would agree with you about this. However, with Roy Jones there a couple of interesting possibilites: 1) Will we see a Roy Jones jr. train wreck ala Tarver-Jones II and Glen Johnson-Roy Jones? 2) An amazing comeback and restoration of an all-time great fighter kind of like B-Hop vs. Pavlik. 3) The distinct possibility of Roy Jones knocking Calzaghe on his ass and stopping him(I was surprised just how easy Calzaghe was hurt and went down and there were 2 or 3 other times that he nearly went down). I know that Roy Jones and B-Hop do have track records of having boring fights in their past, but both of these fighters have strengths and weaknesses that can be exploited, especially in the chin area lately. What does Roy have left? Does Roy have a chin of iron or a glass chin? If Roy has his power, strength, and handspeed will Calzaghe be able to hang? I know that Calzaghe has, but if Roy has anything close to what he had about 7-10 years ago, than Roy Jones will stop Calzaghe inside of 10 rounds. I know that I have said it before, but it just seems like 1993 all over again, and Jones vs. B-Hop II is coming next whether we like it or not.

[hawk5ins]

50 of us should each chip in a buck and send it to Dig.

Better man than I am.

Thanks fella.

SR, in 1993, Jones and Hopkins served as an Undercard to Bowe and Fergusson.

If this is the "good old days", in recalling that card that played on HBO 15 years ago, please give me OLDER, BETTER days.

Hawk

[hawk5ins]

And getting knocked off their perches:

Roy Jones:

After losing back to back to back fights to

Tarver KO By 2

Johnson KO By 9

and Tarver Clear decision Loss in 12

Jones's Opp since 2005 has consisted of

Prince Badi Anju

Anthony Hanshaw

and Felix Trinidad who had not stepped into the ring in nearly 3 years.

And Now Jones Faces Joe Calzaghe.

Hopkins following back to back, arguable and controversial close decision losses to Jermaine Taylor, Bernard's opp has consisted of

A dominating white wash of Antoinio Tarver to Win the Light Heavyweight Championship

A Win over Pound for Pound top 5-er WInky Wright.

An close decision loss to Joe Calzhaghe

This was who Hopkins was facing prior to taking on Kelly Pavlik, whom he defeated cleanly and handily a few weeks ago.

Has Jones's opposition properly prepared him to be ready to face Calzaghe in the manner that Hopkins top shelf opposition has kept him among the best fighters in the game?

If the question is: "Hopkins was able to pull off a Stunner agianst Pavlik, what can't Jones do something similar to Calzaghe"?

A- I think Joe is a better fighter than Kelly.

B-Hopkins has remained among the best fighters in the game since the "losses" to Taylor and has consistently fought the best in the game during that timeframe.

Jones' fell off the map with back to back Ko losses to Tarver, Johnson and then a decisive loss to Tarver. Following that his opposition has been dreadful.

Hoping to "turn back the clock" IMO seems very unlikely and the recipe he has been following is in no way shape or form similar to what Bernard has been doing over the past 3 years.

No comparison IMO.

Hawk

[diggity]

I'll happily be taking donations. Just because I'm paying for it does not mean I am happy about it whatsoever. I hear the undercard is dreadful to boot but what do you expect when it is co-promoted by 2 fighters who are about to retire.

[hawk5ins]

"A Dollar for Diggity"

Can be sent be sent to the following PayPal acct.......

Hawk

[doomeddisciple]

*Cough*http://www.justin.tv*cough free*

It goes against all logic, but I would so love for Roy to stop Calzaghe...But when he dropped Hanshaw and Trinidad he didn't press for a KO so I don't see it happening in this fight either.

[wpink]

And getting knocked off their perches:

Roy Jones:

After losing back to back to back fights to

Tarver KO By 2

Johnson KO By 9

and Tarver Clear decision Loss in 12

Jones's Opp since 2005 has consisted of

Prince Badi Anju

Anthony Hanshaw

and Felix Trinidad who had not stepped into the ring in nearly 3 years.

And Now Jones Faces Joe Calzaghe.

Hopkins following back to back, arguable and controversial close decision losses to Jermaine Taylor, Bernard's opp has consisted of

A dominating white wash of Antoinio Tarver to Win the Light Heavyweight Championship

A Win over Pound for Pound top 5-er WInky Wright.

An close decision loss to Joe Calzhaghe

This was who Hopkins was facing prior to taking on Kelly Pavlik, whom he defeated cleanly and handily a few weeks ago.

Has Jones's opposition properly prepared him to be ready to face Calzaghe in the manner that Hopkins top shelf opposition has kept him among the best fighters in the game?

If the question is: "Hopkins was able to pull off a Stunner agianst Pavlik, what can't Jones do something similar to Calzaghe"?

A- I think Joe is a better fighter than Kelly.

B-Hopkins has remained among the best fighters in the game since the "losses" to Taylor and has consistently fought the best in the game during that timeframe.

Jones' fell off the map with back to back Ko losses to Tarver, Johnson and then a decisive loss to Tarver. Following that his opposition has been dreadful.

Hoping to "turn back the clock" IMO seems very unlikely and the recipe he has been following is in no way shape or form similar to what Bernard has been doing over the past 3 years.

No comparison IMO.

Hawk

Hawk,

Good Points. I have had this discussion over and over again with people who are claiming that Calzaghe can not beat the Jones that stepped in the ring with Trinidad. This baffles me. Are people forgetting that Trinidad was a great welter, but got his ass handed to him when he was prime and stepped up to 160. To think that beating those 3 fighters you mentioned, means he is now almost back to the Jones of Old, to me is crazy.

I think Roy is like a lot of great fighters, but even worse, as Roy has fell of much faster and farther than other fighters of his level. I say this because he was at one time the greatest talent in boxing then, over night he was getting beaten silly by the very average Tarver, and a very good and aggressive but not at his level Johnson. Most fighters have a much more gradual decline than Roy had. Roy has to know that he has nothing compared to what he did have in the areas of instinct, speed and reflexes. He never made focused on the basics that could have carried him through vs
Tarver and Johnson, and thus I simply can not see him beating Calzaghe.

Not that I think very much of Calzaghe. Sure he is a very good fighter, but I dont believe he beats a prime Hopkins, or Wright, or Jones. I know roy saw some weaknesses especially how he got rocked with that straight right hand down the pipe, but Roy is always full of himself, and thinks that he can do whatever whenever, and i just dont think he will do the work to set up this right hand, like Hopkins does. I think roy will try to simply depend on his instinct and it could be a very ugly night for him.

It always seems the great fighters seem to know before that final fight (or what should be that final fight) that they dont have it anymore. Many times you see it in there prefight interviews. Ali vs Holmes, Leoanrd vs Norris, and others. The ferocity the confidence seems to give way to fighter credits his opponents accomplishments before the fight, and seems to vocalize that they may find a way to win,,,,vs the dominant supreme confidence that they had generally. Looking at roy, in the press confernece and on 24/7, he seems happy to just be up there competing again, but that super confidence that a mayweather shows, or he used to show does not seem present...

I am going with a 5th round stoppage by calzaghe. Starting round 2, we all will see exactly Hawk what you pointed out above....Roy level of oppostion is no where near what he will face in Calzaghe and he will not be able to avoid the onslaught, even though Calzaghe does not hit all that hard he is a professional champ, he hits hard enough.....

[Crold1]

Joe Calzaghe-Roy Jones: Pre-Fight Report Card

By Cliff Rold

While unsure where the superstition about things happening in threes got started, like most superstitions it leaves an impression in the back of the mind. In the last three weeks, two fights have featured prohibitive underdogs with big names assumed to be on their last legs. In both, rumors of any ring demise were more than exaggerated as both Bernard Hopkins and Vic Darchinyan made mince meat of Kelly Pavlik and Cristian Mijares respectively. Before those fights, Joe Calzaghe (45-0, 32 KO) vs. Roy Jones (52-4, 38 KO) looked like a farewell tour for both with Calzaghe seeking to end undefeated and Jones just seeking an end.

Somehow, the victories of others make Jones’ chances feel suddenly realistic. Do the performances of Hopkins and Darchinyan have any real bearing on Calzaghe-Jones in the ring? Probably not, but sometimes a feeling gets in the air.

Sometimes, the feeling turns out to be gas.

If Calzaghe were facing anyone else but Jones, there wouldn’t be any question. In fact a fighter of Calzaghe’s current status facing someone who hasn’t had a top ten win at Light Heavyweight in years, and who was beaten badly the last three times he tried, would be derided with venom. Superstitions are fun but rational minds realize they are often the object of coincidence.

Hopkins beating Pavlik was surprising, but only because full credit wasn’t doled out for his previous bout with Calzaghe, a fight deserving of viewing in a new light. Darchinyan’s win was downright shocking, but recent strong performances against Z Gorres and Dimitri Kirilov served as a clue many missed. Jones has nothing like that in recent vintage. While he looked solid versus Felix Trinidad in January, does anyone think Tito lasts twelve, hell six, with Jones five years ago?

And yet, still, it’s Jones and once upon a time, even against lesser foes, Jones was so good as to make the idea of some magic this Saturday conceivable. It’s for Ring Magazine’s Light Heavyweight belt, but it’s also the two best Super Middleweights in the history of that division, both in the twilight of their careers. It’s impossible not to look forward to this one even if sometimes it’s easier to picture it as what might have been years ago rather than what it might be now.

Let’s go to the report card.

Read the Rest at: http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&id=16814

P.S. Picking Calzaghe by UD but wouldn't be shocked with a KO anywhere from three forward. Hope Roy turns back the clock and we get a great fight...NYC is a long drive and this undercard is hardly worth the hotel fare.

[diggity]

Looks like we agree on the result but I need to move your piece to the other thread.

[walshb]

I am a little interested in this bout, but have to agree, that paying TOP dollar for it is a NO NO!

I think Cal wins by mid to late TKO because he sets, or should set, a frenetic pace, overwhelming Jones. Both are past it 'age' wise; but Joe is definitely the fresher and
fitter man here. If Joe can take Jones' clean shots, he will wear Jones down. Roy hasn't the heart or stamina IMO for 12 hard paced rds.

There's no way I can see 'slapper' Cal taking Roy out with one or two shots. He just doesn't hit near hard enough I feel; and even with Jones' weak chin, he will not be Tarver'ed or Johnson'd in this one.

The key to the win is work rate, something Jones lacks and Joe owns!

Peak to peak, I would pick a clear Jones KO win!

[hawk5ins]

is that some, not all, are not only thinking (praying more like it. Bernard I'm talking about you!) Prime Jones is returning. But his victory over Trinidad was as if Tito were still the Tito that Ko'd William Joppy in 2001.

Heck the Trindad that fought Jones was the Tito that got whitewashed by Winky Wright.

The three wins Jones has since the back to back to back defeats.....how can we place ANY amount of weight given the quality of those opponents?

I just don't think we can.

I can only imagine that the Jones we will see will be what we saw in the 3rd Tarver fight (a fighter who I can make a quality judgment on). Given that, I say Joe C wins and it will be a relatively clean and clear victory.

The mystery to ME in this fight, is how much is JOE sliding? I think he's on the other side of the hill, but much closer to the top than Jones is.

I think the outcome of this bout won't reveal anything about how these two would have fared agianst one another if both were in their primes.

Hawk

[diggity]

I agree although I think the Tito that fought RJJ was better than the one that lost to Winky.

One thing I always come back to is I wonder if this will be the case of two guys fighting at a different level for years & once they meet up the disparity is apparent.

RJJ has not had a real fight since the first Tarver bout.
He wasnt in the Johnson fight at all & fought to survive Tarver the 3rd time.
Ajamu, Hanshaw & Tito were about all the same threat, heightened sparring.

JC on the other hand has stayed active against better opposition and has something to show for it.

I'm holding out hope that RJJ goes for broke, otherwise it will be a boring night & the fight will be the let down I originally thought it would.

[jim glen]

I have already expressed my opinion on the outcome of this fight - Jones and possible stoppage; my thought for this fight deals more with legacy and historical placement for these two lads.

Calzaghe = Good fighter not Great fighter.
yet 'if' he wins he will surely be consider among Britain's greatest middleweights & L-HW's an honour, just like Eubank I don't believe he (they) deserve.

Jones = Great fighter 'possible' all-time great.
yet 'if' he losses or worse gets stopped again he risks some heavy critism to the point of really making a difference on his historical status.

So here it is, irrespective of who wins. Roy Jones Jnr. IS the better/greater fighter and should be remembered as such and as I said it's possible he won't be and you can bet, like I said a Calzaghe victory will place Joe, here in Britain anyway - the Best we EVER had... better than Wells, Wilde, Farr, Lewis, Harvey, McAvoy, Tarlelton, Roderick, Lynch and literally dozens too numerous to mention. For me it kind of causes a aggrevated empty feeling because there are just too many left behind and killed off by modern media hype, it's just not right!

I'd like to see Calzaghe win for his sake. I expect to see Jones win for "the better fighters" sake... But more importantly I'd like to see Jones win for True Boxing Histories sake!

what we need is honest reporters especially here in Britain!

[walshb]

I have already expressed my opinion on the outcome of this fight - Jones and possible stoppage; my thought for this fight deals more with legacy and historical placement for these two lads.

Calzaghe = Good fighter not Great fighter.
yet 'if' he wins he will surely be consider among Britain's greatest middleweights & L-HW's an honour, just like Eubank I don't believe he (they) deserve.

Jones = Great fighter 'possible' all-time great.
yet 'if' he losses or worse gets stopped again he risks some heavy critism to the point of really making a difference on his historical status.

So here it is, irrespective of who wins. Roy Jones Jnr. IS the better/greater fighter and should be remembered as such and as I said it's possible he won't be and you can bet, like I said a Calzaghe victory will place Joe, here in Britain anyway - the Best we EVER had... better than Wells, Wilde, Farr, Lewis, Harvey, McAvoy, Tarlelton, Roderick, Lynch and literally dozens too numerous to mention. For me it kind of causes a aggrevated empty feeling because there are just too many left behind and killed off by modern media hype, it's just not right!

I'd like to see Calzaghe win for his sake. I expect to see Jones win for "the better fighters" sake... But more importantly I'd like to see Jones win for True Boxing Histories sake!

what we need is honest reporters especially here in Britain!

Jim, in a perfect world I couldn't agree more.

I just think it's a few years too late for Jones against a good fighter who
is still closer to the TOP of his game than Jones; and noticeably so!

[jim glen]

maybe Walsh, just maybe!

[hawk5ins]

If folks can't see that beating Jones at THIS stage of his career isn't worth anymore than Jones Beating Tito at the stage of his career that HE was in......Then I agree.

You do need better reports and writers over there.

Cal IMO does deserve to be considered an excellent fighter and AMONG the best ever produced from that side of the pond.

But NO, I don;t consider him the best ever from over there and REGARDLESS of what happens agianst Jones, my opinion of him will not elevate or lower one IOTA.

Scary thing though, If Jones somehow wins, don't tell me the overreaction the OTHER way won't be just as bad.

Don't think anyone need worry about that though.

Hawk

[walshb]

Should Cal beat Jones, the British press will go into overdrive; but that doesn't mean that
knowledgeable fans (myself&Jim) will not take it for what it is, "a decent win over a faded man."

Cal cannot escape this fact.

To me, it doesn't change my opinion of Cal, very good, but nothing excellent!

[hawk5ins]

No.

I do think he's proven to be an excellent fighter though.

I don't place a whole lot of merit in defending the WBOgus belt a million times, but he does have some quality victims on his resume in whihc he has performed well agianst.

WIns over Eubank, Reid, Brewer, Mitchell, ruining Lacy, Kessler and the close and arguable duke over Hopkins (who was coming off of two impressive showings), I think deserve some merit when evaluating him.

Still doesn't make him the best to come out of your neck of the woods.

But I do think he is on par with Say a Turpin and Conteh, behind Buchanan and ahead of the likes of Minter, Stracey, Graham, Eubank, Benn and Watson.

I think those clearly ahead of him are Lewis (Ted Kid and Lennox), Wilde, Welsh, Driscoll and Moran. Nothing changes with a Win over THIS Jones.

I think that's a fair shake when assessing him.

Hawk

[walshb]

Depends how one rates his victims?

I rate Kessler as average, Lacy as 'useless,' Reid as average to above average and Eubank as very very good, but he was well past his peak.

I rate Buchannan and Turpin and Benn and Eubank (peak) all ahead of Joe.

I think Watson was better too.

[starlingstomp]

To be fair to Joe, you can pick holes in the records of all those men.

One thing Calzaghe does have in his favour over many recent British fighters is longevity.

[Rafael]

This fight would have meant something about 6 to 8 years ago.

[wpink]

Part of me hopes that Jones of old,,, can resurface for a brief moment and have some flashes and make this a good fight that he can win.

Most of me thinks, not a chance. Hawk. I agree with you competly, and to reinterate again...tito greatness was at 147 years ago. How can one rate his fight vs Jones as a measuring stick for Calzaghe. I don't get it.

I hope this does not turn into another sad episode where we see a once great fighter who does not realize he has nothing left, get lead to his final pasture. Everything in me senses this, but who hurts is that it is coming vs Calzaghe. Why not Chad Dawson or someone, but it does not seem right to not have made this fight all this time (whether is was roy camp or Calzaghe's camp ducking this fight) then when Roy has nothing left to make it. Thus Calzaghe fans will try to say he was better all along, undefeated, beat the best fighter Roy faced or 1 of the best 2 fighters roy ever faced, and then some other good ones. I can literally see their arguement for Calzaghe being one of the greatest ever, already.

That is why I wish if Roy is being led to his last pasture, it would be against a yound up coming fighter like Dawson, and the torch is passed, but it is a clear cut youth vs ancient match up. This match up stinks to me!

[diggity]

The fight would have meant much more 6-8 years ago but Lacy was far from useless when JC fought him and Kessler was FAR above "average" when they fought. Give the guy a few ounces of credit. Nobody gets by on a record like that. He has plenty of other wins on that record to suggest he beat people with little more than a pulse. To suggest anything less is blatant ignorance.

[Crold1]

Calling Lacy useless ignores part of why; it's like taking away from Trinidad for the Vargas win because of the state Vargas was left in by that fight. Kessler is quite good and Calzaghe weather some heavy leather to win.

I offer this...if Calzaghe wins tomorrow and IF he retires, undefeated, calling him less than an all-time great seems a reach. There are very few who have done it and it usually implies a flawed resume somewhere, but both Rocky Marciano and Ricardo Lopez have achieved that status and Calzaghe would stack favorably with either. His longevity trumps Marciano and overall quality of competition dwarfs Lopez with similar stats. I realize Cal's style bugs some, but results matter. I imagine Calzaghe will be much more appreciated in retrospect than he is now.

[hawk5ins]

A huge cosign on both of your posts from me.

Good stuff.

THe Vargas analogy was perfect btw.

Again, my position is that Cal does not go to the top of the tops, but he CERTAINLY belongs in the discussion of great fighters. ANd his accomplishment of going unbeaten (anyone have examples where he CLEARLY avoided or ducked his best opp avail to him?) is also imressive as well.

Hawk

[Ron Lipton]

Thanks Dig,

right off the bat tonight could you mention who the referees are for this card, thanks.

R

[diggity]

sure