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Thread: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Joe C. is one of the most interesting fighters of the last 30 years due to the divergent opinions about his skills. Some observers feel that he is the best british fighter since WWII. Other people feel that he is inferior to a prime Benn or Eubank. I feel that he is a definite Hall of Famer, and an excellent fighter- just not an all-time great. Joe "slaps" due to his hand injuries, and I believe he does this out of self-preservation. In the Eubank fight, he was throwing hard punches and turning them over. If anything, it's more impressive that he has been able to beat good fighters with limited power. CRold made an excellent point that he compares favorably to Ricardo Lopez when it comes to quality wins.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    I was unfortunate enough to have purchased this debacle, as it was very hard to watch. Bottom line is: Roy Jones looked AWFUL. Calzaghe dominated the fight, and won fair and square, but I was not remotely impressed by his performance either. It was simply a matter of Calzaghe having a lot more left in the tank than Jones. But, that being said, I feel that my opinion of Jones' entire career will be subject to more scrutiny now, because once again Roy showed ABSOLUTELY NO HEART! He was fortunate to have caught Joe in the 1st round (How that grazing punch could hurt Calzaghe,I have no idea, but it did) But after that knockdown, Roy was too timid to do ANY follow up. Roy then proceeded to throw almost no meaningful punches the rest of the fight. Calzaghe did his usual high-volume garbage slapping, but at least he was staying busy. Roy didn't even try. Quite frankly, it appeared that Roy wanted his corner to stop the fight from about the 8th row on. Luckily for his legacy, they did not, and as time passes, people will no doubt forget just how pathetic Jones performance was last night. But what really struck me was just how average a boxer Roy Jones truly is. Don't get me wrong, in his prime he was a force to be reckoned with in the ring, but it is clear that his previous prowess was based on excellent power and unimaginable quickness as opposed to boxing skill. Roy has a large highlight reel of great knockouts, but what you will notice is that they usually just come out of nowhere, as opposed to being set up properly. This weakness in Jone's armour was all too clear last night, as he had no game plan at all once his previously lightning-fast hooks kept missing the target. Roy Jones is still no-doubt a first ballot hall-of-fame fighter, but in retropect, my grades for him would be as follows. Speed: A++, Power: A, Ring generalship: B+, Stamina: B, Boxing Ability: C+, Chin: C, and Heart: D. Luckily for Roy, his god-given talents prevented him from ever needing to dig deep, because in my opinion it was never something he was going to do well.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    RJJ lasted for a while just on his handspeed once his footwork deteriorated. Once he was railroaded by Johnson, & did not have the confidence to rely on handspeed anymore. At that point there was nothing left to set him apart from others than the fear that there was some old Roy in there somewhere. JC didn't buy it.

    How strange was it that JC was KDd in round 1 and had a cut on the nose by round 2 in both of his fights in the states?

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Roy's physique definitely went under a dramatic transformation after the win over Ruiz. His muscle bellies did not have the peaks they once did nor did Roy have the same definition. Granted he was older but I really can't argue that he was probably on something starting somewhere around his fight with Toney. Back then his physique was somewhat believable but afterwards the muscles kept getting bigger and he was more defined. I remember in the Paz fight in particular how ridiculously shredded he looked. Griffin & Hill he had that exaggerated look as well.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Revisionist fight fans drooled over Roy Jones for years, watching him beat up mediocre challengers like Ricky Frazier, rather than unify the title against Dariusz Michalczewski. Everyone was amazed when he knocked out Glen Kelly with his hands behind his back. I would have loved to have seen Roy try that trick against Harold Johnson or Lloyd Marshall or Archie Moore or Bob Foster.

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    He NEVER tries it, IMO.

    I maintain in the days of Same day Weighins and no 168 pound weight class to bridge to and a Light heavyweight champion a bit more daunting than a 41 year old interim LH Champ in Mike McCallum who just lost to Fabrice Tiozzo, Jones NEVER leaves the Middleweight division.

    Hawk

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    Re: He NEVER tries it, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    I maintain in the days of Same day Weighins and no 168 pound weight class to bridge to and a Light heavyweight champion a bit more daunting than a 41 year old interim LH Champ in Mike McCallum who just lost to Fabrice Tiozzo, Jones NEVER leaves the Middleweight division.

    Hawk
    Quite the opposite; Roy struggled mightily to make 60 by 92. Roy would always have been what he was...a smallish Light Heavy about the same size as Conn.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Quote Originally Posted by 10-8
    Cliff, in the past Jones got over-matched guys out of there.

    Calzaghe couldn't bust a fermented grape so he resorted to that shit non-stop all fight.

    If you in particular enjoy watching that crap in lieu of punching power or at the very least the ability to take out an out-gunned opponent, all the power to you.

    I simply don't.
    I don't enjoy it; I said it was poetic justice. It's only occasionally entertaining and stopped being late in the fight but gave the crowd their money's worth. I could care less about his lack of stoppages in recent years. Harry Greb couldn't bust a fermented grape either, nor many other fighters who've amassed great careers.

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    With Day Before Weighins

    He enters into the Pro game under the rules of Same day weighins and NO 168 pound weight class he either busts his ass like every other middle in history and KEEPS or MAKES himself a Middle. Or he moves up to 175 much sooner than he did.

    But GIVEN there would be no rest stop at Middle, does he make the STRAIGHT jump to 175? And SPECIFICALLY if there is a Light Heavy champ looming in the future for him of the mold of Spinks or Foster?

    I say NO WAY it happens and he Keeps his body in shape as a Middle.....from the get go.

    24 to 36 hour weighins completely changes the preperation for a fighter to make weight that making weight same day does. That false sense of security to "be bigger" and then put the weight back on after the weighin, changes what a fighters Walk around weight is.

    I say we see Jones as A middle for his entire career and a jump ONLY happens if a Foster gets knocked off or a Spinks moves up.

    Hawk

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Roy was a workaholic starving himself to make 60; go back and read press accounts of the time even before Hopkins. I spent a few hours in Lexis on this one day culling through old newspaper archives. No way he would ever have been a career Middle. He's about the same size as Conn with thicker muscle mass. The only reason this myth still exists is because Roy excused not taking certain fights by saying he was really a 'Middleweight' which is about as true as it would have been for Ezzard Charles.
    Last edited by Crold1; 11-09-2008 at 07:37 PM.

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    If you start your pro career

    with the cushion of 24 to 36 (or simply day before) weighins, then YES, the struggle grows over years. Whihc is why fighters can't stay in one class.

    He begins OUT with same day weighins, he either Stays at 160 or he truns pro at 175. I say he stays at 160.

    Hawk

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Jones though was a fighter who rarely put on much weight after those weigh-ins at 68 and 75, often coming in at or below weight for fight time. It indicates he trained to best weight, always smarter, and also indicates a guy just a shade too big for a career at Middleweight.

    We can do this all day; no way of knowing for sure.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    I posted a detailed comment on RJJ steroid use, it seems to have disappeared?

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Im glad somebody mentioned steroids. Jones was struggling to make 160 by 92 because of steroids not because he was growing out of the division. Until steroids started proliferating you saw guys fight 75 percent of their careers in one weight class as a rule, nowadays guys routinely grow out of weight classes by adding 10, 20, 30 or more pounds of solid muscle with no fat in an endurance sport. Sorry but its naive to think this is done naturally or with "modern" training techniques.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Didn't see the fight but based on what I read it went exactly as I expected. Roy looked awful vs a fat old inactive Tito . . .he sure as hell wasn't going to 'turn back the clock' against a top 3 PFPer in Calzaghe.

    I do take issue with some seeming to say that Jones was always just a front runner and never had heart. Sure, he's gone to the ropes and seemed listless vs Tarver in the rubber match, and apparently here, but at his peak he took some heavy shots from guys putting on the pressure, including Hopkins, Griffith (1st fight) and Sosa and came right back. He came from behind in the first Tarver fight to close out strong. He reportedly went to war a few times in the amateurs with the G-Man standing toe to toe the whole way . . .to sum it up, the guy's no Wlad Klit-style front runner.

    I think after the Johnson fight he basically decided to keep boxing b/c it's all he knows and he still enjoys the attention it brings, along with the competition. But his hunger left a long time ago.

    Questions about his chin or ducking top guys in the late 90s are very valid, but there shouldn't be a re-written history alledging he was just a protected flash of style with no substance.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    I wouldn't go as far as saying he was protected. At the same time, if he really wanted to cement his legacy, he would have and could have made fights with Calzaghe and Michealczweski.

    Again, it was in one way, a sad thing to see the once "great" Jones taunted and beaten so decisevly, but part of me enjoyed it for all the years he strutted and taunted other, lesser fighters .

    Also, Jones was smiling and laughing at Zag's early on and throughout the fight. I don't want to see Jones hurt, but I have never been a fan since the fight where he slapped his foot with his glove and hit the guy. ( can't remember who it was) The Glen Kelly fight really pissed me off as well.

    Crold, you made the same point I was going to make about Harry Greb. Calzaghe overwhelmes people with speed angles awkwardness and volume. He has a damn fine beard as well.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Calzaghe is a legit ATG; the Jones fight didn't make him that. It was just further confirmation of the obvious. He fulfills all of the things we'd ask for in a modern fighter. Could he have fought in any era and been world class? yes. Did he dominate a division? yes. Did he fight the right fights by the time he was done and win them? yes. As long as there is a Super Middleweight class, he will be its Gold Standard.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    I don't know what happened to the post Ron but my reply was based on it. The board has been acting up the past few days.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Thanks Dig,
    I feel a lot of his wins were fraught with an unfair chemical advantage which increased his speed, reflexes and power. He had been found to be using them as was Holyfield and Paz. If you look at them prior to the use of these performing enhancing drugs their builds are like night and day. RJJ had great skills to be sure, but an unfair advantage in boxing is just as questionable if not more than baseball and the consequences therein.

    When someone in boxing is selling tickets much is overlooked on occassion.

    Once off of the drugs, look what Tarver and Johnson did to Roy and it was not just age. Look at Paz's build as a lightweight pro then he was hanging out with bodybuilding roid boys in his entourage and you saw the rest.
    Look at Holyfield's build in his first fight with Qawi, the rest is history.
    The people around them were experts in their use and detection and going on and off but the physical changes are there to see, especially in the absence of the drugs.

    If used a long time, the remnants of the build achieved through them still remains but subltle differences are there to see, I see that all with RJJ.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Lipton
    I feel a lot of his wins were fraught with an unfair chemical advantage which increased his speed, reflexes and power.
    Watch his amateur fights, when he was not particularly muscled, he had exceptional speed, reflexes and power back then, and he looked faster at 168 and 175 pounds than he did at 160 or below ONLY because the heavier guys were naturally slower.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Quote Originally Posted by Crold1
    Did he fight the right fights by the time he was done and win them? yes.
    I don't think I agree with this. Please explain.

    Calzaghe is an excellent fighter, but not an all time great, IMO. As far as I am concerned, Calzaghe's best win is Kessler. I also think that beating another excellent prime young fighter like Dawson will enhance Joe's legacy far more than beating old versions of Hopkins or Jones (who is basically shot). The victory over Roy is pretty much akin to Lennox Lewis' win over a shot Tyson. I don't think that adding faded or badly faded "names" to your resume adds meaningfully to your legacy. If that is the case, maybe he should try to lure Qawi out of retirement.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Quote Originally Posted by Rafael
    I don't think I agree with this. Please explain.

    Calzaghe is an excellent fighter, but not an all time great, IMO. As far as I am concerned, Calzaghe's best win is Kessler. I also think that beating another excellent prime young fighter like Dawson will enhance Joe's legacy far more than beating old versions of Hopkins or Jones (who is basically shot). The victory over Roy is pretty much akin to Lennox Lewis' win over a shot Tyson. I don't think that adding faded or badly faded "names" to your resume adds meaningfully to your legacy. If that is the case, maybe he should try to lure Qawi out of retirement.
    I don't factor the Jones fight much beyond the mass fan psychological affect of the win. Hopkins wasn't badly faded after all and that win's significance increases in light of the Hopkins-Pavlik fight. As to the rest, he really only missed two serious guys at 168: Ottke and Liles. of the two, I feel Liles was the more significant threat and more talented fighter and Kessler and Lacy make up for both IMO.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    I just watched the fight a couple of hours ago, I downloaded an HD rip, the fight was entertaining through the first 6 rounds or so, after that, and especially after Roy got cut, I kind of just felt sorry for Roy with that horrible cut, he looked awful,

    as for the first round knockdown, I think Calzaghe has always had a great chin but it seems to be getting a little weaker at his age, (but he still has a great chin and great recuperative powers as well) I think it was the shock of coming so early in the fight combined with where it landed, right on the nose, more than Cal having a bad chin, it is weird though that he's been dropped in the first by the first two really tough, experienced world class American fighters that he's faced,

    the showboating was kind of funny, especially when Cal would do the drunk dance after getting tagged, and hey, like has been said here already, Roy showboated over no hopers and bums his whole career,

    about Roy's cut, I'm guessing that because he's never had problems with cuts throughout his career, he and his corner didn't really have the experience or know how to really do anything, man, between the 10th and 11th round, the cut man was leaning over in that terrible position, and he had one hand holding a q-tip in roys eye and he dropped something out of his other hand, so while he's holding the q-tip to Roy's eye, you can see that he's also reaching on the ground for whatever he dropped, rubbing the q-tip all in the cut in the process, and then he eventually just drops the q-tip, man that was awful,

    one more thing, I don't want to get too long winded here, about Cal's punching power, I remember early on in his career he used to sit down on his shots more and scored more kayo's, I think his hands are probably brittle or something that made him switch more to the flashy pitty pat flurries,

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Again, this is why I enjoyed the showboating done by Calzaghe.

    http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=gexazLr6pSY

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    Can't believe I stayed up for that sham fight. Cal completely dominated from 2-12.

    Jones had nothing to offer. Cal is without doubt past it too; but still too much for
    Jones, who is 10 years past it.

    I think Cal carried Jones for the last 1/3 of the bout.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Prefight Discussion & Predictions

    I watched 3 hours solid of Cal on Saturday afternoon and I have changed my opinion of him. He really is a true warrior and deserves a lot of credit. Great stamina and heart and is so determined and so focused.

    I just think his career went without much notice and the opposition wasn't great; but it was good, and Cal did all he had to win.

    Even now, I wouldn't be as confident that Jones at peak would have his way with Cal.

    Cal at peak was a whole different fighter than the one we saw V HOP and Jones!

    BTW, the shot that dropped Cal in rd 1 was a forearm shot!
    Last edited by walshb; 11-10-2008 at 05:10 AM.

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    Crold1

    Whatever about Kessler being average to above average, OK, I will say that he was miles better than Lacy; whom I consider to be nothing of note.

    I used the word 'useless' because V Cal, that's what he was!
    Plain and simple 'useless!' Cal was part of the reason for this; but far from the only reason.
    Lacy had nothing to offer and was simply over hyped!

    Kessler was a very hard fought win for Joe and he deserves credit
    for that win; Cal being past his best! I rate Kessler as good, not great. The 'average' comment was
    probably a little harsh, but when I look at Kessler and match him against
    other great 168lb men, he doesn't quite cut it.

    Cal has risen in my estimation, not because of the sham V Jones; but
    because of my 3 hours viewing him on Saturday. He's a great fighter!

    One last thing: I don't believe this will be Cal's final fight at all. It wouldn't be a great
    one to remember. I think he'll be tempted for one or two more fights.
    Last edited by walshb; 11-10-2008 at 05:16 AM.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Prefight Discussion & Predictions

    I expected and wanted to see the Jones of old and I did; I saw the "Oldman" Jones much to my disappointment and I salute you the old boys here at the CBZ who knew "it just isn't there anymore"...

    Jones should finish NOW where he still has a certain respect and a more than credable legacy. That performance was painful from the 7th onward, I told my boys that he has too/he'd better turn it around in the 7th and I knew by the 8th it was over and expected a stoppage in the 9th - Jones just wasn't there, in fact when you seen at the opening intro Jones showed a bit of reservation and Calzaghe was nothing less than SURE.

    I'm really tired of these "pawing" fighters and Byrd, Jones and Hopkins are the quilty culprates of the style more often than not to spoiler fights, thank God there all coming to an end. Jones in his prime excelent, Hopkins in the few performances like he had last week great, Byrd - OK and maybe a little better, anyhow I'm not a fan of this fighting style and I'm glad it's over. Roy hang em up, I can't see you pulling off a Hopkins, sorry.

    Joe Calzaghe, credit where it's due, I'm still not a big fan and was more in favour of the Calzaghe- Hopkins-Jones bouts years ago where Hopkinns would have more than likely been beaten and Jones would have surely stopped Calzaghe.... anyway Calzaghe it's got to be said is 110 % fit and never seems to tire, coupled with his modest self believe and non-sensationalist approach to his training and camps has got to be what has produced a competent and capable champion, I only wish he where a more stylish boxer with a big punch. But the man deserves his Kodo's provided they are in context to the many greats who preceded him.

    Hats off to you Joe & Enzo Calzaghe and team, a bit of the simple, modest just go out and do the business Old School. Well Done.

    I agree Walsh he might just find a few more, silently and subtlely as he encroaches on Marcianno's record!

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Prefight Discussion & Predictions

    If Calzaghe is the best pound for pounder in boxing today,what does that say about the sport now?Put him in the late 70's/early 80's light heavyweight class and he is just a fringe contender IMO.

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    Re: Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08

    I expected and wanted to see the Jones of old and I did; I saw the "Oldman" Jones much to my disappointment and I salute you the old boys here at the CBZ who knew "it just isn't there anymore"...

    Jones should finish NOW where he still has a certain respect and a more than credable legacy. That performance was painful from the 7th onward, I told my boys that he has too/he'd better turn it around in the 7th and I knew by the 8th it was over and expected a stoppage in the 9th - Jones just wasn't there, in fact when you seen at the opening intro Jones showed a bit of reservation and Calzaghe was nothing less than SURE.

    I'm really tired of these "pawing" fighters and Byrd, Jones and Hopkins are the quilty culprates of the style more often than not to spoiler fights, thank God there all coming to an end. Jones in his prime excelent, Hopkins in the few performances like he had last week great, Byrd - OK and maybe a little better, anyhow I'm not a fan of this fighting style and I'm glad it's over. Roy hang em up, I can't see you pulling off a Hopkins, sorry.

    Joe Calzaghe, credit where it's due, I'm still not a big fan and was more in favour of the Calzaghe- Hopkins-Jones bouts years ago where Hopkinns would have more than likely been beaten and Jones would have surely stopped Calzaghe.... anyway Calzaghe it's got to be said is 110 % fit and never seems to tire, coupled with his modest self believe and non-sensationalist approach to his training and camps has got to be what has produced a competent and capable champion, I only wish he where a more stylish boxer with a big punch. But the man deserves his Kodo's provided they are in context to the many greats who preceded him.

    Hats off to you Joe & Enzo Calzaghe and team, a bit of the simple, modest just go out and do the business Old School. Well Done.

    I agree Walsh he might just find a few more, silently and subtlely as he encroaches on Marcianno's record!

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