Sugar Ray Leonard vs Aaron Pryor @147

[TKO11]

I'm amazed to see this thread is still going about the very same things.

Hawkins: Le renoncer mon ami. Ce gars ne verra jamais où vous venez de et essayant de convaincre l'est autrement apparenté au coup de votre tête contre un mur.

I realize you don't know what this means. But it's true. Follow this advice.

[thumper3852]

It says;

To renounce it my friend. This guy never will see where you come from and trying to convince the otherwise akin east to the blow of your head against a wall.

(very literal)

[hawk5ins]

I read T's first! And since I didn't understand it then, I can't understand it now even though you have clearly spelled it out for me.

That and the soft, mushy, blood soaked portion of my forhead seems to be having a direct impact on my thought process........French toast please!

Hawk

[thumper3852]

Ain't life a bitch? My research shows that it is............after reviewing my data, I made a "majority" decision to include that in my conclusions of fact. However, as I announced my findings, I found myself speaking in tongues and further concluded that it was a clear result of reading this thread religously. I also discovered through extensive and exhaustive research and self inspection that my shorts had become tightly bunched.

Therefore, I will only make further posts sans shorts, et cetera.

[TKO11]

Thumper - translation websites lose the gist of everything, don't they? It's "Give it up, my friend. This guy will never see where you are coming from and oto try to convince him otherwise is the same as banging your head against a wall."

I like how "give it up" became "renounce" and "banging your head" became "east to the blow of" though.

[hawk5ins]

................

If you stare at them long enough, the straight line bends.

Just like Uri Geller's brain.

Does anyone have the Issue of Daredevil, where Uri Geller made and appearence? Anyone wonder why he didn't use spoons to help out DD?

I can fit three fingers in to my skull fracture.....Mmmmm...Spongy.

Hawk

[wpink]

If you feel a bit sensitive about the fact that I feel so strongly that ray leonard was better than Duran, or that you to a piece of my entire post and on documented a portion of it, so that you could appear to be a credible source,,then I suggest you toughen up, dont try to sound all tough on a chat room board, that doesnt impress me, not in the least bit. You can save the what I call "tough typing" for those that get impressed by these tactics. Read the entire post and you will see that I clearly said I did not understand french, and what i thought...etc...Now as far as my research, I have researched several different places and they all have different figures, but most of them indeed point out that the scorecards were read wrong that day. So you personally want to get on here and make it like I errored, when i clearly stated that I had not researched this, because it was not important, to me Duran won, fair and square, so the fact that it was majority or un..was not reason enough for me until yesterday due to supersensitive people like yourself making a big deal out of the reversal of one scorecard.

The bigger issue is i thought leonard won, and that is the only place where my opinion was included, and if you have a problem with my opinion on that topic, than that is tough, deal with it.

As I said before and will say again, leonard based upon who he beat, is better than duran pound per pound, and the only reason this issue has arisen is because I pointed out (which seems to get under several people's skin) that Leonard elected (another word for chose, or decided- since we are getting so technical,,wow on a chat room board..Maybe to some this is the most important thing you do all day, but I have job that gains most of my attention, so if i am not exact in what I say on here sorry, but it is what it is) to fight the toe to toe style and he lost by only a point, or to be exact by a narrow decision. When he decided to box he clearly had duran's number. To me (my opinion) this shows that leoanard had the ability to fight durans fight, he lost but it was close, but duran could not adjust and fight leonards fight. Finally, you all are all over a mans jock who has a losing record against other greats. Again another point that seems to really cause you all to lose sleep, but that is not opinion my dear comrades, that is fact. Buchanon, Dejesus, Leoanrd, Hagler, hearns, Benetiz...and by the way he had all of these fights except for leonard 3 before he was 34...So if your going to bring up norris, or talk about hearns II, fights that leonard had after retirment and around the same age,, then isnt it funny that you all want to disregard an active fighter who was the same age, and yes,,,to eliminate the michael jackson weak arguements that you and others have...Ray fought heanrs at the 160+ weight limit and norris at 154, both highter than ray original weight class he entered into...

So there I seperated fact from opinion for you so that you dont have use rational thought process and also understand it is just a board for christ sakes not the LSAT, or a thesis, or even project for work, lighten up, but since you wanted to get technical and start insulting, and also trying to sound off like your some hotshot, there are the facts, if you got a problem with the sources, then discuss it with them, as I originally said I don't like to go to the internet and quote sources that I am unfamiliar with. Or do you not remember that, when you all 1st attacked a said any person that likes leonard this much should have etc...etc.. etc....

[hawk5ins]

I'll try and get you to refocus here.

The scorecards: What was your source for the 4-3-8 card? It's incorrect. What was your source for the 8-7 card? It's incorrect. What is your source for the "Roberto won by a decent margin on the third card"? Unless a 2 point margin is a "decent" margin (and that was the largest margin on the three cards).

You said you did research. What source did you use for these cards? Some homebased fan page? Or a source that uses historians or beat writers?

If you know how to educate me on a 10 point must system, why would you think that a 15 round bout could ever produce a 114-113 scorecard?

"Excuse me hawkins I am sure that I can educate you on scoring, I know very well the 10 point must.....system..."

Those are YOUR words. Not mine or my interpretation of them.

You are AGAIN, stating opinions of yours are facts. What makes them fact? That you said they are?

Broken record. Me that is. "Number 9. Number 9. Number 9. Number 9."

Hawk

[wpink]

hawk, my dear friend. Look closely at the post your referring to. This is my last post on this subject.

I said clearly I didn't understand what they said but they said something like 114-113....(which is a 12 round verdict) I made specific mention of the fact I could not tell but the handlers lifted duran up in enjoyment. Then I clearly mentioned again I did not know what they said but at first Duran was lifted up then obviously the same score was repeated for leonard, as they handlers lowered duran...then the final verdict which i did not understand was read,,,and they said something along the lines of the nuvo...meaning at leat to me the new....etc...That is what I said.

As for the source that had duran 4 leonard 3 8 rounds even....I know for a fact I saw this, and will do a google search to produce this link then you can observe it and pull you head out of your behind, as this was again was not opinion, it is what i saw. In fact before I posted this source i tabulated the scores myself and this comes to 147-146 which doesnt match a 4-3-8 format,,but I posted it because that is what i saw..Againt I am not saying this source is bert sugar or anything but it is what i saw, credible or not (which for thefinal time is why i originally said to you and aqui that for me to go on line and document a source as accurate is not what I like to do, and here you go attacking a source because you have different data, which is exactly why i saw no meaning in this, as Duran won...what is the point..dammm)

I will get you that link...then can we move on. No arguement exist here over the scoring, my statment all along was that the night of the fight that It was announced a majority decision, and know this because of the fact that the 2nd scorecard that was read was even ( which no i dont know french but you can tell from the fact that announcer read the same french jibberish for leonard and duran and duran's handler placed him back down when they were prepared to celibrate). I have not changed my statment at all and will not, only thing i changd was my style of not quoting online sources which I am not privy to their accuracty, and see where it got me.....

Leonard clearly the better of the two

[hawk5ins]

"Then the 2nd card they said in french as well, and it must have been a score of 115 in french because at first Duran followers were hoisting duran up after they said his name in frend and his score, but then the announcer said Leonard 115 and momentarily they lowered duran back down....then they read the 3rd card and it was read 114 ..to 113..the nuevo...or what ever they said in French and your right leonard nodded his head in agreement with the decision. I have just researched the official decision. I was duran by a decent margin on card, and by 1 pt 4 rounds duran, 3 rounds leonard 8 rounds even, and then on the final duran won by 8 rounds 7...UD...."

What could you have POSSIBLY researched, that would give you incorrect score cards, inccorect simple addition, an incorrect meaning of the meaning of "decent" margin?

What could it POSSIBLY have been?

"I have just researched the official decision."

What I don't think you seem to understand here, is that if THIS is the type of information that you RELY on and base your conclusions on, then yes, it DOES bring in to question your credibilty.

This is the SECOND time, that I have seen this in which I've bothered to push you for some answers.

There are postes who look for education from other posters. And there are those who think they know it all and when it is pointed out that they really don't know as muhc as they think they do, all they want to do is trivialize the critiques, ignore them and/or pump their chest and move in another direction.

I don;t have to SAY I've got you pegged as the latter. Your posts say it for me.

Hawk

[TKO11]

Autour de et autour de nous allons. Quand arrêterons-nous ? Jamais, si Pink a sa façon.

[hawk5ins]

Voulez vous marcel cerdan jacques cousteau georges carpantier tour de france.

le Hawk

[TKO11]

Oui.

[hawk5ins]

Ima all Le Franced out Boychick.

Nein more for me.

Aloha!

Hawk

[thumper3852]

Thumper - translation websites lose the gist of everything, don't they? It's "Give it up, my friend. This guy will never see where you are coming from and oto try to convince him otherwise is the same as banging your head against a wall."

I like how "give it up" became "renounce" and "banging your head" became "east to the blow of" though.

Yes they certainly do....as do english to english translations at times. For example: "Juan Mesa is throwing up in the bullpen". Does that mean Juan was hurling in the bull pen or hurling in the bull pen?

I was indeed curious enough to see what it meant as I don't parlez vous French all too well...translate.com is as close as I can get...I did get the gist of it, and further, fully agreed. I decided then and there not ram my tete into my computer monitor in an eastward direction. I renounced all future head damaging activities.

J'ai été frustré du fil à ce point.....(yes, more online translation, dammit)


As to boxing and the degenerated thread at hand, Leonard got off his toes (and his usual style) because the first time he tried to outspeed Duran on the inside in an effort to try to take Roberto by surprise with his speed, Duran rocked Sugar, nearly floored him, and the complexion of the fight for SRL suddenly shifted from a strategy of winning to one of survival....he got his world rocked....SRL fought well, as one would expect from a guy with his immense talent, but that punch clearly shook him and changed him; I don't think he knew where he was for several rounds. SRL was as smart of fighter as you might ever see; I don't buy the line that he got stupid with ego, I think he got knocked stupid, and it was by Duran in the second round. Roberto was mighty pumped for that fight and he was not going to be denied, you could see it with the intensity that he fought with ( he was always intense and even fierce, but even moreso in Montreal). I'm certain he was willing to die trying to beat Leonard that night. I boxed enough to know what it's like to get rocked to the point that most of a bout can be a blur, even in fights that I won; it happens to a lot of fighters, it happened to Leonard in Montreal.

I have to go get dressed, et cetera, now.

Viva le CBZing at work!

P.S. I think prime Leonard (the Leonard of Duran-Leonard I & II) would take Pryor in a 12 rounder, a 15 rounder might be different.

[wpink]

Hawk, if you want to get personal and discuss credibility I am more of a man than to type tough sentencs into a message board. If that is what gets your rocks off, then so be it, however my credibilyt is not what is at stake here, as my worth as a man, person, or in $ and cents made by a very nice salary is not based upon if you understand the meaning of my post. Get it.

So as I said before Mr "gets his credibility on here" where I get mine in person. I am sure you will beef up and try to impress your fellow partners on here with weak angles regarding You said this or you said that, or why go to this website..etc...Obviously you did not attend college, or it you would understand the the issue and how to get to the point. My point is Duran won, plain and simple. You want to continue going off on a tangent regarding what Websit, then be my guess. In fact you go to Google Search and type in Leonard Duran I scoring, and you will see several different versions of the scoring and reviews of the fight.

My message to you Hawk, get a job, and get to the point. I am typing from work, real fast, so I know another of your weak pet peeves is post that are not in MLA format..lol. Well sorry I came on here to debate for fun issues and support fighters like Ray leoanard via fun debate, not have my post disected and given a grade on how well it was written,,,Geez...man please get a life, and relax...it is a message board..and I still feel leonard won and is the better fighter.

[TKO11]

Pink - you keep telling other people to stop acting all tough. Perhaps a glance in the mirror is in order here. Your posts are dripping with "I dare you to knock the battery off my shoulder" yet you run around shouting "j'accuse". Makes no sense.

[hawk5ins]

But Only ONE is correct.

If you don't know which one is correct, you have a choice: Find out. Or continue in the manner in which you currently conducting your "research".

Hint: The way to acheive credibility is to find out which information is correct and then you use that information to back your positions.

This isn't a personal attack. I'm not asking you to go get a job (I have one thank you very much. One in which I am afforded th luxury of posting my thoughts on a boxing website when I have free time. I also use the money I make to help pay for my education. But thank you for your concern.). I'm informing you of the correct information and for some reason you take offense to this.

There are NOT multiple CORRECT versions of the scorecards for Duran Leonard I. There is only ONE Correct version. You seem to think that becuase you can access multiple INCCORRECT versions by doing a GOOGLE search, that this absolves you of having to provide CORRECT information when you cite it to back your position.

If you think you don't have to provide correct information when you cite it, that puts into question your credibility. Whether I say so or not. You have shown that you are willing to live with innaccurate statements and inaccurate historical information. You find this acceptable.

If you are comfortable with this, that's fine by me. No skin off of my nose. But don't get sensitive when I take your posts and positions with a grain of salt.

Hawk

[Sharkey]

one is going to psycho-analyze me (Page 4), they'll have to charge ME money to do so. If bandwagoning is trying in vain to pin down a position so that it is clear, and asking for evidence then I am not only a bandwagoner, but a bandwagon-conductor. Like Walter Brennan might have been.

But I feel that is untrue..... I am more Grand Wagoneer than bandwagoner.

I vow that I will try not to post on threads giving/asking opinions until I am very sure that I agree with them, so as to promote harmony and such.

Oh, and I was doing the dots before anyone thought they sucked.

[wpink]

Let me be the bigger person and put a end to this nonsense. Hawk as I have commented before I truly ( this minor issue aside) have enjoyed your post, whether we previously agreed and disagreed.

This simply debate regarding the points on the fight, I pointed out several times 2 days ago, that at that time I had never went and researched on line, or had a "credible" boxing magazine that i get and trust, discuss the the topic, at least not in the items I have. Now I am noly 38 now, so I am sure that at the time when I was hmmm 12 they had this in the magazines then, but I didnt subcribe and my allowance was only $10 per week. Thus in an attempt to resolve this issue I quickly searched on line for this topic and ran with the first source I located. Now I had previously advised I dont like to do this, and sure enough, the moment I did it, I had those including yourself that have credible or at least to you credible sources that cover the topic, and can poke holes through the information listed. Guilty as charged, I take the heat with that.

My concern here is that previously you seem to be one that dealt with the issues, and let minor issues be that...minor, However in this case, you ignored the main issue at hand which was, i will repeat it, that Leoanrd and Durans fight was close regardless of a majority or UD, Duran won, and there was never any need in the first place to research this, that is why I never did previously. No need. The winner was never in doubt. All of that is fact.

My opinion comes into play, where i point out "to me" Leonard won the fight, but to other hagler beat leonard. that is there opinion about a close fight, argument accepted. That is the issue, and what we were debating. I also did..see that score...4-3-8..in favor of duran, again the point is duran won. Finally 114-113 which you some intelligently pointed out is not the score of a 15 round fight but a 12 round fight..Agreed. However, if you look at my post, ( this is becoming my favorite quote) I clearly said again that I didn not know what they person reading the score was saying, it must have been, sounded like, appeared to be.whatever. that case may be. the point is that the 1st card clearly duran...2nd card sounded like 115-115..or whateverr...it clearly was a draw ( that night which was how it was read, which started all this) then the 3rd card read obviously was in favor of duran. My partner. that is what I have been saying all along...Never changed. So if if am guilty of saying it sounded like, but I am not sure,,then so be it. I take defeat of the issue very well, but I can not understand how it is not clearly accepted that I pointed out initially I did not understand what he said there for any guess or quote etc that I make reference to about what was said, should not be taken as fact, simply sounded like.....Comprende!!

I would like to get off of this topic, as it is wearing me thin....All I have to say is Ray leonard beat duran 2 times and duran won a very close decsion whether ud, or majority, it doesnt matter. leonard got a L...and duran a W.

[wpink]

As I said Hawk, you must not have a job....

[hawk5ins]

I actually did this:

"In fact you go to Google Search and type in Leonard Duran I scoring, and you will see several different versions of the scoring and reviews of the fight."

I typed it in, EXACTLY how Pink worded it, and here were the first five results:

1- The scoring of 147-147, 145-144 and 146-144 was read in French and English and it seemed Duran had won a close majority decision. However, an hour after the fight, it was announced the cards were added incorrectly and the 147-147 draw on judge Angelo Poletti’s card was changed to 148-147 for Duran. A 148-147 score in a 15 round bout is very uncommon as it translates into three rounds for Duran, two for Leonard and 10 rounds even.

2- The last round saw Duran launch a one handed three-punch salvo of left hooks, two to the ribs and liver, followed by a third to the head. Roberto was flying high. Having the facial features of a beaten warrior since early in the fight, Leonard would let loose with all he had in an attempt to close the show in his favor. At the end of 15 rounds the scores were astonishingly close. Our friend Angelo Poletti had things 148-147, with those ten rounds scored even. Raymond Baldeyrou tabbed matters 146-144, while Harry Gibbs gave Duran a one-point edge with a 145-144 score.

3- Next, Leonard went back to the Olympic Stadium in Montreal to defend his title against former lightweight champion Roberto Duran, in the first superfight of the 1980s. Leonard abandoned his usual slick boxing style and brawled with Duran. It was a great fight, but Leonard lost in a unanimous 15-round decision. The scores were 148-147, 145-144, and 146-144.

4- When it ended, Duran won the title with a close (146-144, 145-144 and 148-147) unanimous decision

5- The final scorecards were 145-144, 146-144, and 148-147 (the ring announcer erroneously declared one scorecard even when reading the verdict).

Son of a B*tch. They ALL got it correct! I want to know how you do a Google search of The Leonard Duran I Scoring and get INCORRECT information?

ANy hints? Anyone? Bueller?

PS: I love my job!

Hawk

[wpink]

looks about righ to me..1 point on 2 judges scorecard..hmmm and did Ray fight on purpose durans style of a fight....Answer that. Then answer what happend the next 2 fights when duran had to fight a boxing match...

[hawk5ins]

So how do you get this when you google search:

"I have just researched the official decision. I was duran by a decent margin on card, and by 1 pt 4 rounds duran, 3 rounds leonard 8 rounds even, and then on the final duran won by 8 rounds 7...UD...."

Spelling? Different names?

What page in the Google search do you go to? 10?

I wonder why Dundee was yelling at Padilla to have him get Duran off of Leonard, throughout the fight?

Was it becuase Ray was standing there voluntarily?

If that was the case, why wouldn't he yell at Leonard?

I wonder why anyone would point to Leonard Duran III, given that the bout took place 8 years later and 13 pounds heavier, as having any significance at all?

I wonder why anyone would state that Duran had a losing record agianst all time great fighters, when it is clear that 147 in 1980 was not Duran's best weight (but it was SRL's) and was at least 2 years past his peak prime. Or that 160 in 1983 was even further from his prime weight (But it was Hagler's) and age or that 154 in in 1984 was further in age but still 19 pounds away from his optimum weight (It was Hearns' 2nd best weight as 147 imo was his most effective weight given the combined speed and power he displayed. 30 ko's in 32 bouts at 147 vs. a .500 ko puncher at 154)?

I wonder? Maybe the type of guy who can type in "Leonard Duran I Scoring" into Google and get 8-7 Duran, 4-3-8 Duran and Duran by a decent margin, could explain all of this?

Gosh I wish I was busier at work today.

But if I have to fill the voids.........

Hawk

[wpink]

Hawk that is where you ignorance of boxing and biases kick in. Duran was 29 years old and foughth the best fight of his life, then in nov of the same year..same turn around time for leonard who i guess by all your stories, should have needed much more time to heal than duran if you listen to what you are saying. Since when is 29 over the hill. If so then ray leonard moves further up the chart because of what he did beyond the welter weight limit and past 30.

Quit making excuses...Duran moved up and won the fight simply because leonard fought a stupid fight. Now this was Leonard's game plan going into the fight to ko duran in 4, and Ray Arcel knew it too. Bad mistake. But it was a close fight, and when leonard reverted back to the style that allowed him to win every other fight, or a style that helped him win other big fights, then duran could not hang.

You know how ridiculous you and others sound when you keep on wanting to ignore everyone else and down play others who were great at lightweight, and moved up with more success than duran, much more success. You also point to his lightweight career 72 victores..Hmmm Talk to us about Dejesus. Now in the first fith he beat durans ass, dropped him, but duran came back on won the next two....Hmmm Sounds familiar, but I guess duran gets the nod here too when he is 1-2 against tha person. Dlh, Mayweather, whitacker all moved up and had better records agaisnt top oppoositon than duran did. DlH fighting at age 33 is not usuing this excuse of being over the hill at 29...Duran did not have a long amatuer career and talk to us about his 1st 21 fights that really should not be classified as professinal fights...dlh leonard, mayweather, jones etc did not build up a large profession bank of fights because the developed their skills as amateur, and yes professional fighting is different, but they came out of th olympics with out the need to fight fighters like chavez and duran did early on in their careers. Ray leoard awas able to fight for a tile at early on...He did not need to fight guys with a record of 10-10 just to pad his record and have peop like you rant and rave that he was a god,,,,when in fact the quality of his opposition is good but not of a whitacker, leoanard..

So this leads us to his fights with leonard hagler heanrs, benetiz...hmmm he won one of these fights...ONE!!

[wpink]

Hawk that is where you ignorance of boxing and biases kick in. Duran was 29 years old and foughth the best fight of his life, then in nov of the same year..same turn around time for leonard who i guess by all your stories, should have needed much more time to heal than duran if you listen to what you are saying. Since when is 29 over the hill. If so then ray leonard moves further up the chart because of what he did beyond the welter weight limit and past 30.

Quit making excuses...Duran moved up and won the fight simply because leonard fought a stupid fight. Now this was Leonard's game plan going into the fight to ko duran in 4, and Ray Arcel knew it too. Bad mistake. But it was a close fight, and when leonard reverted back to the style that allowed him to win every other fight, or a style that helped him win other big fights, then duran could not hang.

You know how ridiculous you and others sound when you keep on wanting to ignore everyone else and down play others who were great at lightweight, and moved up with more success than duran, much more success. You also point to his lightweight career 72 victores..Hmmm Talk to us about Dejesus. Now in the first fith he beat durans ass, dropped him, but duran came back on won the next two....Hmmm Sounds familiar, but I guess duran gets the nod here too when he is 1-2 against tha person. Dlh, Mayweather, whitacker all moved up and had better records agaisnt top oppoositon than duran did. DlH fighting at age 33 is not usuing this excuse of being over the hill at 29...Duran did not have a long amatuer career and talk to us about his 1st 21 fights that really should not be classified as professinal fights...dlh leonard, mayweather, jones etc did not build up a large profession bank of fights because the developed their skills as amateur, and yes professional fighting is different, but they came out of th olympics with out the need to fight fighters like chavez and duran did early on in their careers. Ray leoard awas able to fight for a tile at early on...He did not need to fight guys with a record of 10-10 just to pad his record and have peop like you rant and rave that he was a god,,,,when in fact the quality of his opposition is good but not of a whitacker, leoanard..

So this leads us to his fights with leonard hagler heanrs, benetiz...hmmm he won one of these fights...ONE!! by a narrow decision because the fighter did not fight their style...hmmmm He quit the next time when he was getting whipping..HE QUIT!! Hmmm got beat by Benetiz, Hmmm got his ass beat all around the ring by hearns then send to sleep..GOOD NIGHT!! Then he lost to hagler. Sure he moved up to fight these fightere but so did ray, so did dlh, so has mayweather....

So Mr Credible, you tell me who is basing their great idiologies off of opinion. It would have to be you as the facts are clear, duran beat one top fighter and his record agaisnt that fighter is 1-2...Need I tabulate his record versus all of these fighters..and if you cound Davey moore, I will count Lalond.

Duran is a great fighter but many on here dismiss facts in the face of opinion. Yes I am biased for ray, but he factually has victories over duran 2 of em, stoppage of Hearsn at their peak and a later draw, stopped Benetiz, moved up stopped kalule, moved up after 5 years of retirment beat hagler. Moved up stopped lalond...came back down beat duran who just beat dmoore, he beat duran easily....

Talk to me Mr. Facts.

[The Shoemaker]

You guys are wasting your time argueing a meaningless point (of coarse who am I to say what you guys should argue about). I could be picking your brains about relevant topics like "what if Leonard doesn't retire in 82". As far as the decison, it was announced as a majority decision and then the judge that scored it a draw claimed he mis-added, so it was changed to a unamous

The fight itself was a hell of a fight and I felt Duran won by an eyelash. Like Frazier of 71, he fought the fight of his life (against another great fighter) and refused to be denied. While i don't buy the crap that Leonard, in a rage over Duran insulting his wife, abandoned his boxing plans and elected to slug. It was a premediated plan by him AND DUNDEE (Dundee always gets off the hook in that fight). They believed that Duran didn't have the killer power at Welterweight (Zeffi Gonzales and Wellington Weatley), and often fought in spurts. Dundee felt that Duran couldn't fight backing up, wasn't as physically strong, or powerful as Leonard, didn't like it to the body (DeJesus). They figured that he wouldn't be in shape to fight off a bigger man. -Wrong ! Obviously the punch that Duran nailed Leonard with changed the complexion of the fight. There's arguments that Duran forced Leonard to the ropes, and there are ones that believe that Leonard went to the ropes after being hurt because some fighters can see better on the ropes (Leonard got cracked in the center of the ring), the arguement is that Leonard felt safier on the ropes after being hurt in the center of the ring. I don't know on that one.

I do know that after Leonard re-established himself after being hurt he did nail Duran with some viscious body shots in that fight. And Dundee did scream at leonard several times that "he's resting Ray" imploring Leonard to put the pressure back on Duran. Hey, it worked against Kahlule.

I do agree with Pink that Leonard fought a stupid fight and still almost won and had the New Orleans Leonard fought the montreal Duran, Leonard would have won. But it is debatable. Yes, Duran's pressure (like Frazier's) would have eventually forced Leonard to fight him toe to toe, but he showed in Montreal that he could. i just think he'd have built up a big enough lead on the scorecards that even if he wears down and has to fight, he'll still win (Ali-Frazier II) I know the scores were close in New Orleans, but like Ali-Liston I or Hollyfield-Lewis I, they shouldn't have been . I had it about 5-2 Leonard.

Where I do disagree with Pink is bringing up Duran's losses against great fighters. He's fighting them at THEIR WEIGHT NOT HIS. The guy was a natural Lightweight fighting (and beating) Middleweights. What, if Leonard would have gone up to Light Heavy and challenged Spinks or Quawi (actually, there was a better chance of Leonard fighting those two than Hagler, since Hagler wanted nothing to do with those two, in fact that was Leonard's comeback to Hagler during the early 80's when Hagler used to whine about Leonard not wanting to fight him, Leanard would say "why don't you go fight Spinks"). Spinks and Quawi would have killed Leonard. Using your logic, i'd have to add those two KO losses on Leonard's resume against great fighters. Because your taking Duran losses to Leonard, Hearns and Hagler. Hey, the guy's moving up in weight, so obviously Leonard has a huge advantage. You have to factor that in. Michael Spinks, never gets mentioned in p4p ratings (Light heavies and Heavies rarelly do). But he has a hell of a resume (and like Leonard, he can beat you in many ways). What, if he'd have KO'ed an undersized Leonard, would you rate him higher than Ray in any p4p ratings ? Hell no, no one would. But that's what you're in effect doing to Duran.

[hawk5ins]

to stay strictly along the lines of the scorecards and other non opinion based points that Pink can't seem to get his hands around.

"Hawk that is where you ignorance of boxing and biases kick in. Duran was 29 years old and foughth the best fight of his life,"

Duran fought the best fight of his life is an opinion. Plain and simple. One that I could dispute until I'm blue in the face, but then agian, I too am only giving my opinion.

Pink can't understand the difference.

My ignorance? Is this somehow a fact simply becuase I disagree with Pink? Apparently so. And becuase I made mention of Dundee screaming out to Padilla all night long, apparently, that makes me biased as well. I'm wondering how he knows who I was rooting for? Or If I feel that Duran was "CLEARLY" superior to SRL in the grand scheme of things. And if I beleive these feelings, whatever they may be, are indeed FACTS?

Yet he can't get his hands around the scorecards issue I kept banging away on. There were not multiple versions of the scorecards. Just one. This is factual. It can not be disputed. Yet becuase SOMEHOW Pink found multiple versions of these scorecards on Google, when I could only find one, the Correct one, he believes it;s up for debate.

Many on this board may not agree with my opinion, Pink. And I'm willing to bet many don't agree with your opinion either.

Now Credibility. There's another subject altogether. It's something you can put weights and measures on. Something you can factor, FACTS, into when making this determination.

Ignorant, Biased, Jobless, No education. Sigh.

Well at least he took the high road.

Hawk

[wildhawke11]

Guys i say this with full respect meant to you all. Your playing into wpink's hands on this one. It it so obvious that all he ever wants to talk about is his hero Ray Leonard and he is getting his way. Just look at the number of posts on a fantasy fight in which i think 7 out of 10 people who know anything about boxing would pick Leonard as the winner in a fight against the lighter Pryor BYE BYE FROM ME ON THIS ONE

[wpink]

Hawk what is it that you want me to say. I have repeatedly agreed with you on several points. I would like to get on too. If you want someone to repeatedly bow down and say oh mighty hawk you got more credibility on this point because i quoted a inaccurate source..then sorry...

Shoemaker I see what your saying, however keep in mind two points.. we do rank leonard based off of what he has done when he moved up to higher weights. Leonard fought natually 147 then he is consistently belittled for the fights he had at 160 ( which still baffles me that no one considers that ray was retired for 5 years, i do not remember that issue coming up from anyone besides me on any post, how fair is that) hearns at 160+, norris at jr middle.

2nd point is yes duran moved up,,,but so has others like for example mosley who we lost ot forest twice at 147 and winky twice at 154. If you throw those two fights out then Mosley is undefeated. I do agree that moving up is a major challenge and has to be weight heavily and it was not Duran natural weight, but isnt every one else judge buy what they do at these weights and pretty much what they do up until the age of about 34 or so. Is that not correct? That question is not gear specifically at you, it is towards those that continue to hoist duran above others and I simply point out that we are giving duran latitude that we are not giving others. What about dlh..

The only arguement I can hear in support of duran is that he was 72-1 at lightweigh and this is outstanding and shows total dominancce. Help me understand exactly who he beat, and lets but a quality review to these fights...It may be of good quality, but is assure you it is not of the same quality as a Leonard, or sweet Pea....With that being said, IMO the fights he had against leoanrd benetiz and hearns should come into play, as at 147 and 154 , these are equivalent to the jumps that leonard, hearns, dlh, mosley, whitacker, jones, all have made in their career and fought after the age of 29.