Hey -- there was a time when a guy 35 was considered WAY OVER THE HILL.
Oscar proved to be a throwback to the old time fighters in that regard.
Hey -- there was a time when a guy 35 was considered WAY OVER THE HILL.
Oscar proved to be a throwback to the old time fighters in that regard.
All I know is, I am the master of picking 2 ways that a fight may end where neither ends up being the one.
I thought Pac had a real live chance in there but I never would have imagined him delivering such a beatdown. DLH has never taken a beating like that, losing round after round. My jaw was wide open the entire time. He finally looked like an old fighter in there as he sat & took shots without returning fire ala Calzaghe-RJJ. Pac took the spirit right out of him from the 2nd round on. DLH must have been shocked with the speed & power. The weight had to affect him somewhat but the same result would have happened at 154, maybe a round longer.
I agree with doom & others on here.
Pac pounds Hatton & I think Pac beats PBF should he return. Pac has everything PBF does not want to see in the ring. Years ago I didn't think he would have the skill to pull it off but it apparent Pac only gets better.
It really makes you wonder how much weight Pac would have to pack on before he started losing anything.
I couldn't be happier for the result tonight.
CAn anyone say...Ali/Holmes.
wow, I couldn't believe it, round after round and De La Hoya just did absolutely nothing, I was even more surprised in the early rounds, everything De La Hoya threw was either blocked or slipped, with the exception of a few jabs and body shots, De La really didn't do anything,
I was joking after the fight when they were announcing Pac as the winner, he looked like he was being introduced at the beginning of the fight, not a mark on his face, and looked extremely fresh,
Absolutely agree, Hatton - Pac is a bout that has to be made, Hatton will do better than De La, and make it a little harder for Pac to land with the in your face holding style, but I still see Hatton gettting brutally stopped,
as for Pac - Mayweather, I still think Mayweather will undress him, maybe after a year layoff he'll be a little rusty, but, Pac has never been in with a slick, tough, black American fighter before, and Mayweather is extremely quick and about as hard to tag as they come
Thanks Doom and 10-8, much appreicated.
One thing Lampley said that was strange to me. He said that Tony Weeks did a good job in handling the Corrales V Castillo fight when Corrales spit out his mouthpiece.
I know for a fact the heat that Weeks caught from various official sources for allowing Corrales (God rest his soul) an unfair advantage by allowing him to have the mouthpiece rinsed and replaced without a lull in the action as opposed to making him fight, then deducting the points for the continuous violation was not the way to go.
If Lamps think that was handled well, I just don't know what to say. Castillo had him and the rest allowed Corrales was not the way to go.
In the dressing room tonight Weeks made it a point (As he has been instructed to do) of going over the fact that he would not replace the mouthpiece unless there was a "Lull" in the action.
Not doing that in Corrales V Castillo I, actually changed the outcome of the fight. Yet bigger assignments are given as a reward? Including another one in Europe with Klit v Rachman?
Tonight being a bit overweight Weeks was too slow getting into the right position and missed some right hands to the thigh by Oscar on Manny and some other low blows by Oscar first.
Manny just took over and hustled his way into a most impressive victory.
He moved his head so well and upper body while fighting in and out on his toes like a little pit bull taking down a larger dog bit by bit.
I still cannot believe how hard Oscar trained and was just overwhelmed and could not whack him the hook one good time to test Pac Man's jaw, so fast was Manny with his blazing combinations.
Then Manny went low a few times too.
I personally think Pacman is a different monster then anything Floyd has seen. Forget the fact, Floyd was never THAT impressive against ANYONE at 147 pounds, not even with Hatton.
A few years ago at 140, I'd say Floyd hands down. The Pacman we saw tonight, at 140 or 147, I'd pick him over Floyd all day. He's faster then anyone Floyd has seen, has WAY more hand speed, and defensively he's only gotten better and better.
How can you bet against him? He rises to EVERY challenge, he doesn't know how to lose, and he IS the best pound for pound fighter in the world. Period.
Can we get Marquez for a third fight please? I'm begging!
My local friends and I have agreed for a while that Manny would win this one because a) he is a buzzsaw, and few fighters beat someone who comes to throw lots of punches and not pose; and 2) while Oscar was a fine fighter once, he is now an old fighter who comes back for paydays, and still generally loses them anyway. Old fighters do not beat great champions in their prime, no matter if the former have a weight advantage.
Really, when does an old, well-past-his-prime fighter beat a young, strong, active fighter with championship skills? Well, BHop did it--a rare exception. Leonard did it, but Hagler was older than he was. Holmes beat Mercer, but Mercer was not any kind of buzzsaw. See Tyson-Holmes for what happens typically when a great old fighter fights a champion in his prime.
I learned the hard way that old legends don't beat current champions in top form, when Ali got destroyed by Holmes. And, Oscar was no Ali. Oscar was no Leonard or Holmes either, maybe not even a BHop. Unlike them, Oscar in the last few years loses his big fights, usually.
Pick the young champ to beat the part-time fighting old man, and you'll win money 99% of the time.
Oh, by the way, my guess is that PBF will want not Manny, but Oscar. And Oscar, as usual, will consider it. Both of those parties will want that matchup; only a third party, the fans, won't go along with it.
Thanks for all the description of the fight, guys. I decided not to buy and went out for the night, only just got home and it is certainly a surprise. This is the first place I checked when I got back.
Oscar has seemed slow for a long time, and each year I thought we kinda got used to it. (I especially thought that when he was in the ring with Moseley the first time) Guess it was all out there in plain view tonight.
I do appreciate that he was in the ring with top fighters at a variety of weights, not worrying about protecting his record. He provided many great memories. He was a true star and he knew the public expected a lot out of him and sometimes his reach exceeded his grasp, but he was willing to go up against the big names of his era and possibly fail.
Jim Lampley forgetting Freddie Roach's condition is really weird to me.
When I was at Freddie's gym last year and spent some time with him, I realized he just has bad days and good days. Looked like he was having one of his worse days.
Oscar was banking too much on his straight right hand and apart from some good work in the first round he just wasn't setting it up with the left. He needed to keep that left active and feint with it (which he never did). When you just try to force a right hand lead like that you leave yourself open to the mirror shot. Oscar was dreadfully slow in getting into position and then took his sweet time to launch the punch, and then didn't get out of the way once he'd punched. "I did this to myself," indeed.
I don't think Pacquiao had the relative power to KO Oscar, but the cumulative effect of the punches could have a nasty effect after the fight if it would've continued. Oscar looked in control of taking the punches (if that makes sense to you), he was just getting overwhelmed and was unable to mount an offensive reaction.
Freddie Roach was dead on the money with this one. First of all, boxing history tends to repeat itself, and it did in this one, in many ways.
A boxing axiom is that a fighter can get old, when they have that night when they walk in there and they simply do not have it anymore and seriously need to hang up the gloves. This was that night for Oscar. He had nothing - no speed, no power, no defense, no life. He was listless and dead. I think evander accurately brought up Holmes-Ali, and rightly so. It was like he was just gone.
Here's the difference between guys like Calzaghe/Hopkins and Oscar. The former two stay active, stay in the gym, take the best care of themselves, never have big periods of inactivity. Oscar's layoffs finally caught up with him, as they will do as you get older. That said, if you look back, regardless of activity, Oscar has been declining in past years, not only in terms of results, but in terms of the level of his physical performances. He's less active with his punch volume, his punches are slower and less powerful, and he has been losing that zip to his feet, hands, and head movement. Roach was absolutely correct in that regard. Oscar himself was spot on when he said his heart and mind are still in it, but his body is simply no longer responding.
This is why he needs to retire. I truly believe that 80% of a fighter's brain damage takes place in the fights at the tail end of a fighter's career when he no longer has it anymore but continues on nevertheless. Every fight a fighter has while in that state exponentially increases the damage. Roy is doing it, Evander is now doing it, guys like Hearns did it, Ali, I can go on and on. This was what I call 'truly past-it' fight number one for Oscar. Let's hope he's smart enough to make it his last.
Another thing that was evident based on the performance, and which Roach accurately predicted before the fight, was that Oscar would be weight drained. He looked like an OVERTRAINED fighter in there. A guy who left it all in the gym. The fact that age 35 he was not only at his lowest weight in 12 years, but that he was at fight weight a week or so before - way too soon, and only gained 2 pounds a full day after weighing in, tells me that he had overtrained. Roach knew it too.
A fighter who does not consistently stay in the gym, but takes lengthy periods of time off, needs to have longer training camps so that he can very gradually work his way into top shape, particularly when they get older. Training hard is not enough. What happens is that these guys wait and only give themselves a month or two, work super hard, and think that because they are working hard they are doing the right thing and will be in great shape because of it, when really what they are doing is actually undermining themselves. That's how Oscar looked to me in there.
All that said, I thought Manny looked fantastic and put on a brilliant performance. Oscar's horrid performance should not detract much from the dazzling spectacle that was Manny Pacquiao. He was so active, with consistent head movement, good guard, springy footwork, a good consistent offensive output with both hands, timing his punches well, working the range beautifully, pulling the trigger on offense and defense when he needed to, wonderful speed and snap to his punches. It was a wonderful exhibition.
Yes, Pac-man v. Fat-man is the fight to make, at 140. At this point, I'd give the edge to Pac on superior defense and speed. But, the fight I'd truly like to see at 147 would be Margarito v. Pac-man.
Back in 1892, criticizing Sullivan's training before the Corbett fight, Jake Kilrain said that he had not trained for enough months, and, “They seemed to think only of taking off his weight, without considering at the same time he was losing vitality.”
Diggity: Very funny post ... often I feel the same way ...
I am most impressed from the clips I have seen by Paq's execution of his strategy ... he did not go in guns blazing but showed restraint, picked his shots and actually displayed fine defense. It's the fist major bout of his where he looks unmarked after.
I definately think the weight was a major issue for Oscar. He did not fight at that weight for many years and it was a huge mistake. I realize he could not have made the match since a fight at 154 would have pushed an already huge difference but he gambled and lost.
I'm sure Ron is right and Paq should keep his main bouts no higher than 140 and hopefully he will ... there's Hatton and then Mayweather ... both could be huge at 140 ... I'm also disappointed Oscar quit on the stool ... for $ 22 million, go out like Jimmy Braddock or at least Ray Leonard v.s. Terry Norris .. he went out like Chavez did against him the second time and I never was wild about that one ...
I thought the Doctor stopped the fight, whilst Oscar was sat on his stool?Originally Posted by HE Grant
Oscar lost half the battle on the scales, then Manny took the rest.
Look it, there was no point in Oscar's continuing. They were talking to him about stopping the fight for two rounds prior to that. He had almost nothing. It was pitiful. I don't care who stopped that fight or whether or not Oscar acquiesced. It was non competitive at that point and Oscar was just taking a beating. I actually thought Manny backed off a couple of times for a few moments and caught some body language from him as if he was pitying Oscar and not wanting to beat him up anymore. I'm sure it was going through his mind, 'Do you folks really want me to keep beating on this guy?' Then he figured, 'Well, I might as well go ahead and take care of business,' and he poured it on again to give them the excuse they needed. But Oscar was just a punching bag in there the last couple of rounds, throwing back very rarely, almost never landing.
Amen!!Originally Posted by apollack
A Holmes-Ali comparison is completly off the mark.
Ali had already been the recipient of several bad beatings (even if victory), was 39 years old and already beginning to suffer from Parkinsons, and was fighting the top man in his own weight class.
Pacquao was fighting a 35 year old fighter who had NEVER taken a bad beating in his career, only been stopped once vs a great MIDDLEWEIGHT fighter in a relatively competitive fight, had two fights previously fought an extremely close matchup with a fighter who was regarded as the PFP #1 in Mayweather, and for most of his career had fought 4-5 weight classes higher than what Manny weighed at. Pacquao in my eyes was still a 130 lber, the Diaz win was impressive but he hadn't shown he could handle real elite 135 lbers yet . . he jumps to 147 and fights a guys who was still a top 3 Junior Middleweight. A close decision . . sure . . .but Pacquao had no business DOMINATING this fight! It was a great performance by Pacquao, period.
I want to see many keep his undefeated record and remain a boxing hero.
Dirty Harry says "A man has got to know his limitations."
He has got to stay away from Magarito, too rugged, powerful and unhurtable and again too tall.
I think Hatton in shape has the goods to possibly beat Manny, that should be interesting and of course PBF is an attractive fight but I would think when PBF got a dose of Manny in close he would hold him and run all night.
Margarito ain't no DeLahoya at this stage and would hurt Manny badly right away while Manny absolutely could not hurt him. There are welterweights and there are welterweights, not this one.
Just saw the fight and WOW. DLH looked like a walking corpse the last few rounds. Pacman has amazingly fast feet and hands. He was darting in and out with ease since the first round.
DLH looked slow footed the entire fight. By round 6 he started to look pathetic. DLH "fought" round 7 entirely with his back on the ropes, Tony Weeks should have stopped the fight at that point as DLH didnt throw any punches while he was getting pelted the entire round. In round 7 with about a minute to go DLH attempted a right to the body and almost stubbled over his own feet. He looked confused the entire fight.
I have a few questions though. Why did DLh train down to 145? Didnt anyone in his camp see this in the gym? After tonights performance I simply cant believe that DLh looked great at the end of his training camp.
I also wonder if DLH's changing of trainers almost ten times in his career finally caught up to him. He brought in a new trainer once again who was unfamiliar with DLh and his body.
Last edited by Kid Dynamite; 12-07-2008 at 01:18 PM.
Pac's evolution as a fighter is remarkable. He used to be one handed with leaky defense. Roach has built this guy into something extraordinary. Much props.
Agreed. Manny's trust in Roach is incredible & it shows. Is there a better story of an evolution of a fighter than Pac through Roach?Originally Posted by Crold1
DLH was ready to be saved in the corner but the corner shouldnt have left it up to him. Anyone watching could see it should be stopped. I wanted to see DLH protest a little for $22 mil but what was the point anyway.
There is no reason Pac should press 147 any further. DLH is one thing but Margarito will crush him as would Cotto or Clottey...but after what I saw, I could see Pac taking out Berto or even Mosely. Either way Pac should campaign around 135-140 safely for the remainder of his career. He has nothing to prove to anyone anymore. It still freaks me out he just fought at welter & actually weighed more than DLH at fight time.
It's amazing how much weight Pac carries in those legs of his. His calves were thicker than DLH's thighs.
I was very disappointed in last nite's fight card. Not one fight was competitive, Golden Boy is using the undercard to just get a win for their up and coming fighters. Then they wonder why the boxing fans are going to the MMA. I never thought I would say this, but I miss Don King's competitive cards from the 70's-80's and 90's. That was a bullshit card of fights last nite.
Yup, terrible card. I thought Resto would offer a little more against Ortiz but I guess not.
Originally Posted by hagler04
Yeah...right. Forget all the pre-fight histiory before the two fights. When the opening bell rang for both...the older fighter had nothing in that ring and was beaten up from beginning to end. Both fights were very similar.
Admittingly DLH best days are behind him for sure.
What is glaringly wrong with him and I feel very strongly about it, is that there is an absence of quality usable muscle.
We all have different opinions on muscle quality, usable muscle and how to meld it to a prize fighter and others feel strongly that it doesn't matter and cite examples to show it. It is not a panacea for lack of skill or punching power or hand speed.
If Oscar wants to be better he has to have trainers that know how to turn back the clock, put some solid muscle on his arms, back, shoulders, chest and legs without gaining much weight. I am pretty good at this.
Then increase his one shot punching power and last night he did not come in on time.
I know what I saw in his training camp on 24-7 and he was as sharp as a mosquito's pecker. Last night he was as flat as piss on a plate.
All Manny? Ok, I agree, great performance. But rehydrating to 147 is crazy.
He had no energy, no muscle pump, nothing.
I wish I had this guy for 6 months of conditioning then another 2 months of my kind of boxing training totally different than Big Bear.
If he continues with that same body and just strictly boxing trainers who are out of shape themselves and have no real concept of how to evolve with modern methods, but have trained other great fighters, he is making a bad mistake.
He has to change his body, he has the chin, he has the skill, his body has to change if he wants to continue and go out much better than last night.
He can become a big puncher if he changes.
He has the wrong trainers for what is ailing him, age and maintaining the same training methods which have failed him consistently as of late.
He will probably retire until his pride starts to eat away at how he went out.
The guys around him cannot see the forest for the trees. He needs to be stronger but in certain ways and the speed and power will return a bit.
If not, it is better to retire now. Shades of Ray Leonard being dumped by a guy who would not have lasted one round with him in the day, Hector "The Burglar" Camacho, or Holyfield ancient legs folding in on him from a tap by fat man Toney. Just horrible stuff to watch.
Mosley will be a great barometer in his bout against Margarito to see how fast hands are handled by the big and rough welter. If Margarito handles Mosley brutally, he is surrely the guy to stay away from by the smaller jr welters.
Mr. Lipton, I think you are right... but I don't think Oscar has the mentality to prepare like that. He's been a part time fighter for many years now and just doesn't seem to realize that a regular training camp, even a good one, is enough to prepare him for a 12 round fight against a determined opponent. In my experience it also takes a while to get accustomed to a new weight, even if you've fought there before at some point. That's why I absolutely agree that he needed to RESTORE himself physically before he even begins real boxing training. This is why I love reading about Rocky Marciano's work ethic. He didn't just do the now normal six week camp for his fights.
Just out of curiosity, how would you train De la Hoya for a comeback fight (at 154 lbs) if you had him? I'm not asking you to give out any real details, just a little elaboration.
The Holmes-Ali comparison does have some merit but DLH was in no way shape or form as used up as Ali was for that fight. No where near as many wars. DLH may have been past the best, rusted & tinkered with by PBF Sr., but just not the same mileage that Ali had.
DLH is like many have said, a "part time" fighter for a number of years now, after his first loss to Mosely specifically. Since then its been a variety of hand picked opponents with Hopkins & PBF stuffed in there for good measure where he was the willing underdog.
You can't fault DLH for any of it. He played his career beautifully & did plenty good for boxing. I don't think he had a shred of doubt he would lose to Pac truthfully. Hopkins or PBF, yes. Pac? Nope. Back in 2000 it wouldn't have went down like that.
Originally Posted by diggity
I agree with you on that.
But I also think the fight with the scale, making 147( a weight he hadn't been in at... in a decade) killed whatever he had left before the fight. Remember Chris Byrd at 175...
Ali/Holmes looked alot like Hoya/Pac, reguardless of what went down before the fight. Hoya looked like a helpless,weight drained Ali, getting pumbled on the ropes and getting nailed at will.
This fight also reminded me of Leonard/Camacho.
Last edited by evander; 12-07-2008 at 08:24 PM.