De La Hoya - Pac Results & Discussion 12/6/'08

[mrbig1]

DLH is a tough sell now. No one want's to see an old washed up fighter. He should be like Lennox Lewis. Walk away with all your mables and money in your pocket. We can say about Oscar what we may, But the fact is he fought everybody who was anybody. That's good enough for me. Next stop is the HOF.

[Ron Lipton]

Mr. Lipton, I think you are right... but I don't think Oscar has the mentality to prepare like that. He's been a part time fighter for many years now and just doesn't seem to realize that a regular training camp, even a good one, is enough to prepare him for a 12 round fight against a determined opponent. In my experience it also takes a while to get accustomed to a new weight, even if you've fought there before at some point. That's why I absolutely agree that he needed to RESTORE himself physically before he even begins real boxing training. This is why I love reading about Rocky Marciano's work ethic. He didn't just do the now normal six week camp for his fights.

Just out of curiosity, how would you train De la Hoya for a comeback fight (at 154 lbs) if you had him? I'm not asking you to give out any real details, just a little elaboration.

Reply: This is a debilitating loss fraught with humiliation. No champ wants to be remembered as going out like this. Unfortunately he did not come in on time as to energy levels or changes in his style of punch delivery melded specifically to deal with a fast and mobile force like the Pac Man.

When he heals, rests and regroups he will understand that no matter how many critics tell you not to change trainers like your socks, they are wrong.
I have my own methods. They are unorthodox but work and are designed to be the difference between being shot with a .22 gallery load and being nailed with a 340 Weatherby Magnum.

When change is necessary and you are taking the punches, you change for the better. The top A+ level fighters who reigned supreme for years, age like the rest of us. Changes for success must be made to be able to FIGHT.

What would I do without telling too much.

Like a Svengali I get into a fighter's mind, I am talking truth to them all the time, and working on the thing that makes them able to win which is their mind.

I gear it to the individual who I am training as I increase their punching power, and I do mean increase it. Some cannot believe how fast I do this, but with it comes a vicious confidence and brutal desire to try it out on a live targe. New muscle power, muscle control and their own mind control.

First many months are spent with me developing each body part for fighting with maximun usalbe quality muscle, MY WAY. We adhere to a strict diet and watch films as intently as Alex DeLarge with his eyelids spread wide with clamps in Clockwork Orange.

We do not miss a day for anything, death, sickness NOTHING.

I study their next opponent and I see things others do not see just like no one fully sees or cares what the refs do to ruin fights.

I have them punch with maximum force and speed from all angles and then I design an attack plan to do maxium damage all night long.

I train them so hard they want to fucking die but if they listen they will not lose.

With him, I would build him from the floor up for 6 months. You would not even recognize him. I would have him tapping into power he never had because this is a great fighter with a great chin who has never developed into his full potential.

Let me explain something to you about specialized trainers. You have to take a good look at the guy training you. Some physical specimens of fighters would flourish if the Flying Fucking Nun was training them so great a physical speciment they are.

The internet sites are full of kids who nothing about boxing who say this trainer is great, he was with this guy and with that guy. Yet there is a point reached where a guy training a fighter since he was 12 in a Mexico gym lets say or a L.A. gym or NYC gym, had taken him as far as he can go with their methods. The trainer is fat, the trainer is old, the trainer is sick, and the endless mitts, sparring and perennial advice starts to pale with its redundent nature.

It is then time to bring in a specialist, a hit man to add some zing to the mix.
You want to pay an old legend big bucks to be a yes man, or someone to parrot old boxing axioms, keep bobbin, get off first, whatever thats cool.

Does that shit work? No. You have to be the strongest, fastest and the most devastating for each fight. You have to punch hard fast and look the part.

His team just trained a 35 year old fighter to the fucking bone, razor thin, with no glycogen in his muscle tissues and he crapped out like a drunken bride on her wedding night.

I would change that, not treat him like a star with a big entourage and get back to being brutal and training to destroy at all times.

I hope I answered the question.

Ronnie.

[Mike DeLisa]

I did want to point out that paq did two things very well -- first, he judged his distance well and was able to guage Oscar's reach.

Second, and most important, he kept taking little steps to his right -- which many would say is wrong because he would be walking into Oscar's left hook. But, Manny move to the right JUST enough to be able to get a good angle or slot to throw his left. Bingo! jackpot. Jab, jab, slide to the right, there is the opening -- boom!

As Freddy mentioned postfight, he didn't think Oscar could pull the trigger anymore -- so Manny was able to move to his right and get off that shot before oscar launched the left.

Angles guys! That is what ultimately won the fight!

[doomeddisciple]

I did want to point out that paq did two things very well -- first, he judged his distance well and was able to guage Oscar's reach.

Second, and most important, he kept taking little steps to his right -- which many would say is wrong because he would be walking into Oscar's left hook. But, Manny move to the right JUST enough to be able to get a good angle or slot to throw his left. Bingo! jackpot. Jab, jab, slide to the right, there is the opening -- boom!

As Freddy mentioned postfight, he didn't think Oscar could pull the trigger anymore -- so Manny was able to move to his right and get off that shot before oscar launched the left.

Angles guys! That is what ultimately won the fight!

Pac moves a lot and I noticed to set up the left he would square his shoulders up just enough to allow his left to be in alignment with his right and then slip the lead left through time and again - From the first round onward.

Not as damaging overall as the right hooks and the effect thay had on DLH's temple and eye, but that lead left to me looked even faster and snappier than the lead right Mayweather made Hatton look like a Bobblehead on a dashboard with last year.

Pac Hatton all the way next year please!

[darkknight718]

Well. That was . . . surprising.

A few months ago, on FNF, they were talking to Teddy Atlas about this fight, and he laughed and said something like: "I can't understand why people keep buying these! Oscar loses all his big fights!" I guess he was right, at least at this stage of Oscar's career.

I actually felt bad for him. He was obviously over-trained and drained. On the "24/7" series, they showed Oscar putting in some serious workouts and sparring on like the Wednesday before the fight. They also showed Angelo Dundee saying -- weeks before the fight -- that he was worried that Oscar would leave too much in the gym. It kind of shocks me that someone so experienced and professional would make what would appear to be a kind of rookie error. Maybe Oscar was just really worried about making the weight.

Paq did a great job, obviously, and took a good shot the few times DLH landed any. He's on a path to become a pretty major star. Not one on DLH's level, maybe, but probably the biggest one boxing has right now.

[HE Grant]

I openly questioned the weight factor and believe it was a major handicap for Oscar ... he was far inferior to the guy that fought Mayweather ... it was a terrible strategic move to go to the weight to make the fight ...I take nothing away from Paq who fought a smart, terrific fight. Oscar and Team got too cute and it backfired in a major way.

[ezzthetic]

I hope I answered the question.

Ronnie.

Thank you.

[sr71ko]

I didn't see the fight. Hopefully, it will be on HBO later this week. The theme for 2008 is out with the old and in with the new? Roy Jones jr. lost, Oscar Delahoya lost, who's next? Now, that Pac-man or the Mexicutioner will be pressured to fight Margarito @147 or perhaps the goading of Mayweather jr. to fight Pac-man? These 2 potential fights could be real huge for 2009. Which of these fights Pac-man vs. Margarito or Floyd Mayweather jr. do yall think has a chance of happening?

[doomeddisciple]

sr71ko - I sincerly hope neither. Hatton is a competitive fun match up and big business in the UK at Wembley or the like.

Margaritto has already been scratched by Freddy - Steve Kim quote Freddie as saying "I'd let him fight Wladimir Klitschko before Margaritto"

Mayweather V Margaritto or Williams are the only ones I want to see Floyd come back for.

[TKO Tom]

People might not agree with this - but Oscar was overtrained in that fight.

A 35 year-old guy, 145 pounds, fighting the lightest he had been in years...

I think Nacho trained the shit out of him and just wore him the hell out.

And before you think I'm making excuses for Oscar, I don't like him. I wanted Manny to win. Manny is my favorite fighter. I wanted to see Oscar get knocked out.

But, I think he was overtrained and by the time that bell rang he was drained.

[diggity]

I don't think anyone here will argue that DLH left it all in the gym. The fact he gained 2lbs from weight in said it all.

[Ron Lipton]

People might not agree with this - but Oscar was overtrained in that fight.

A 35 year-old guy, 145 pounds, fighting the lightest he had been in years...

I think Nacho trained the shit out of him and just wore him the hell out.

And before you think I'm making excuses for Oscar, I don't like him. I wanted Manny to win. Manny is my favorite fighter. I wanted to see Oscar get knocked out.

But, I think he was overtrained and by the time that bell rang he was drained.

Reply: You are a 100% right. In addition to Pac man's great performance, Oscar was drained as if by a vampire. When I train my guys very hard it is only if they can take it and recover and this you can see day by day.

He had nothing and should have eaten better after the weigh in and like Ricky Hatton does, he has memorized and documented all the great supplements that help so damn much that Kerry Kayes taught him about.

Power can beat speed if you hit a guy each time and hurt him badly each and every time. If you are not hurting him ever with jabs they will go right through you.

The trainers there just did a lot of the same old stuff and never made his body become stronger only weaker. I mean no disrepect but I saw them doing the same old stuff. It's a 35 year old guy who has been losing, he has to have a new program to supplement his skills which are still there.

I hope he doesn't go out of the game on this kind of note if it was just a case of being overtrained.

[walshb]

Yeah...right. Forget all the pre-fight histiory before the two fights. When the opening bell rang for both...the older fighter had nothing in that ring and was beaten up from beginning to end. Both fights were very similar.

The comparison stinks IMO.

Lets be real here and this is what I feared after Pac won; everyone saying how brilliant it was. Pac did what he had to do and was very good, no doubt about it; but let us analyse what he actually faced:

This is what I was afraid of. I watched that fight and I have boxed many times and I have to say; I have never seen such a novice like performance from a so called legend ever. It was beyong deplorable and no amount of excuses can save Oscar. Weight, tactics etc etc. Manny did well and boxed beautiful and all credit to him; but to use this victory over a SHAM Oscar as some barometer to his future success against legitimate welters is IMO misguided. Even Manny himself could not understand why Oscar was so dreadful He clapped his gloves together at one point as if to say 'what the hell is up with you?'

Okay, how can anyone explain a guy getting repeatedly hit in the face with straight lefts. What can explain Oscar's diabolical flat footed approach. He could not even judge simple distance. All this was happening to a man who had all the physical advantages, no matter what HBO reported on the weights; the actual look of both men in the RING told the true story. 4 inches taller and a 5 inch reach advantage. Even excusing him being past it, which I and everyone else knows, I believe a man off the street would have done better. Nothing explains this performance. I am honestly trying to find a reason but I can't. All I can think of is that Oscar simply had a meltdown and was suffering with his vision and balance.

For the last two rds, he couldn't even throw a shot. Manny hit Oscar at will; but were any of the shots hard? I say NO, they were just accumulation shots. He was being hit by a blown up feather. Very strange indeed and IMO this win should really be taken in context. Manny himself was utterly shocked at how poor Oscar was!

Now, to compare a 35 year old Oscar fighting a man who is really two to three weights below him and cowering for the last two rds from Pac's DEVASTATING shots, to a man suffering with Parkinson's is simply absurd. I will give Oscar a pass, because I truly believe Oscar was suffering from some sort of condition the other night. It is the only thing to explain how he actually performed. His 2 lb weight gain in over 24 hrs is really really odd.

[walshb]

Does anyone know what exact time Oscar and Manny weighed in at on Friday night? Las Vegas time I mean. I really would like to know the amount of time that passed between the official weigh and the HBO weigh.The HBO weigh in was?

Thanks

[10-8]

I'd like to hear Oscar's take on all of this overtraining/dehydrated talk. So far he's been silent since the fight.

[hawk5ins]

At I beleive 6:00 PM EST. So that would be 3 hours earlier.

Hawk

[Kid Dynamite]

Walshb, just look at the scale.. The last time DLH weight 145 or less was in 1997 when he fought Miguel Angel Gonzalez at 140. In his next fight he took on Whitaker and came in at 146 1/2. And I am sure he gained a good 5 pounds after that fight.

If DLH really only gained two pounds after the weigh in then his camp did a horrible job. How can they let DLH climb into the ring 2 pounds over the limit. Even when DLH was a welter in his 20's he would come in heavier than 2 pounds over the limit.

DLh is simply a partime fighter who is getting up there in age and also came in under weight. Not a combination that spells success.

Does anyone remember when Chris Byrd lost all the weight and fought at lightheavy?

[Mike DeLisa]

In 24/7 Angelo Dundee said "I hope he doesn't leave it all in the gym." Angelo obviously saw something he didn't like.

Overtraining is a boxer's worst enemy, especially an aging boxer.

Oscar simply overtrained -- I have spoken to many fighters who even years after a bout talk about the horror of being in the ring and unable to throw a punch.

Oscar's trainer should take all the blame.

[Olympic Auditorium]

I have to agree with walshb.Manny is a great fighter ,but I have some questions I would like to ask Oscar.1.Why did you refuse to throw your straight right?2.Where was youre jab?Why were you squaring up and getting hit with so many lead lefts?4.Finally why didnt you throw punches??Something was very strange in this fight.

[kikibalt]

I have to agree with walshb.Manny is a great fighter ,but I have some questions I would like to ask Oscar.1.Why did you refuse to throw your straight right?2.Where was youre jab?Why were you squaring up and getting hit with so many lead lefts?4.Finally why didnt you throw punches??Something was very strange in this fight.

Walter, those are great questions, but the simple answer, is that he just couldn't, that happens to fighters when they get old, they see the openings, but they just can't pull the trigger, their reflexes are gone, and when that happens its time for the fighter to hang up the gloves.

[diggity]

Exactly. He became flustered & did not have the trust or comfort in himself to get into the fight in the way he was accustomed. I still think Pac wins healthy DLH or not, just not in the fashion in which it happened. DLH would have probably got a KD & won some rounds but the bottom line is he would never have been able to deal with the angles, speed & pressure Pac presented that night. It was just too much for a 35yr old part time fighter. 7-10 years ago DLH would have crushed Pac like a grape.

DLH has been masked by his competition somewhat the past few years. He was certainly able to compete but neither Forbes, PBF, Mayorga or Hopkins presented what Pac brought. None of them had calculated & sustained aggression at such a high pace.

[10-8]

Walter, those are great questions, but the simple answer, is that he just couldn't, that happens to fighters when they get old, they see the openings, but they just can't pull the trigger, their reflexes are gone, and when that happens its time for the fighter to hang up the gloves.

Exactly Frank.

I remember reading about a meeting between Ali and Joe Louis and Ali asked Joe how he knew it was time to hang 'em up. Joe said "I saw the openings but before I could react they were gone." Does that not sum up Oscar's performance?

Oscar's not beating any top fighters from welter on up so why bother continuing his career? He hasn't looked good in awhile and a part time fighter ages quicker than a guy who is active. I realize he's only 34 but that's pretty close to what Ray Leonard was when he lost to Norris and Ray was done then as is Oscar now. Oscar modelled his career after Ray's in more ways than one.

I don't see the need for Oscar at this point to go out and end his career on a win against a journeyman. I don't hold this fight against his legacy as I don't hold most fighter's last fight against their legacy.

Bottom line is, who here on CBZ is willing to pay money to see Delahoya fight ANYBODY at this stage?

I thought so.

[Ron Lipton]

Exactly. He became flustered & did not have the trust or comfort in himself to get into the fight in the way he was accustomed. I still think Pac wins healthy DLH or not, just not in the fashion in which it happened. DLH would have probably got a KD & won some rounds but the bottom line is he would never have been able to deal with the angles, speed & pressure Pac presented that night. It was just too much for a 35yr old part time fighter. 7-10 years ago DLH would have crushed Pac like a grape.

DLH has been masked by his competition somewhat the past few years. He was certainly able to compete but neither Forbes, PBF, Mayorga or Hopkins presented what Pac brought. None of them had calculated & sustained aggression at such a high pace.

Reply: I believe DLH definitely would have crushed Pac man when Oscar was on top of his game, as much as Ray Leonard would have demolished Camacho and Holyfield destroyed Toney.

This time Oscar was so listless in the ring it truly reflects on the trainers because in camp he was crackling. If he punched like he did in camp it would be a whole different fight. His weight, his totally flat muscles could not function except for about 4 or 5 slow bursts in the whole fight.

He has got to build up his legs, arms, shoulders, back and chest and rest up.
He should finish up at a Jr MIddle catch weight and go out with a big win a new man just to sign off right.

[hawk5ins]

I interperated Dig's post to mean if Oscar at age 34 at this stage of his career, if entered the ring "Healthy", not weight drained and or as weak as he was. If he were not as overtrained as it sounds as though he was, that Oscar would still have lost to The Manny from Sat Night.

Maybe a better way would be to say it is this: If the Oscar from the FORBES or Mayweather fight showed up, Manny still beats him. Just not as one sidedly as he did.

I would agree that if we had Peak Prime versions of Oscar vs Manny or Holyfield vs Toney or STL vs either Norris or Camacho, that we see wipe outs.

I dont' THINK that was what Dig was meaning with his post.

Dig, unless I am misinterperating you completely here.

Hawk

[Juan C Ayllon]

Here's a thought: I haven't seen a replay of the fight yet, just a few select excerpts of footage. That said, I'm reminded a little of De La Hoya's bout versus Pernell Whitaker, where a prime De La Hoya wasn't up to his usual performance level. The common denominator? He was fighting a tricky and dangerous southpaw.

Whereas De La Hoya sounds like he was overtrained, I wouldn't be surprised if he was also a little retiscent to fire because he might walk into something.

Just a thought!

[Ron Lipton]

I did want to point out that paq did two things very well -- first, he judged his distance well and was able to guage Oscar's reach.

Second, and most important, he kept taking little steps to his right -- which many would say is wrong because he would be walking into Oscar's left hook. But, Manny move to the right JUST enough to be able to get a good angle or slot to throw his left. Bingo! jackpot. Jab, jab, slide to the right, there is the opening -- boom!

As Freddy mentioned postfight, he didn't think Oscar could pull the trigger anymore -- so Manny was able to move to his right and get off that shot before oscar launched the left.

Angles guys! That is what ultimately won the fight!

Reply: 100% true.

[hagler04]

Walshb, just look at the scale.. The last time DLH weight 145 or less was in 1997 when he fought Miguel Angel Gonzalez at 140. In his next fight he took on Whitaker and came in at 146 1/2. And I am sure he gained a good 5 pounds after that fight.

If DLH really only gained two pounds after the weigh in then his camp did a horrible job. How can they let DLH climb into the ring 2 pounds over the limit. Even when DLH was a welter in his 20's he would come in heavier than 2 pounds over the limit.

DLh is simply a partime fighter who is getting up there in age and also came in under weight. Not a combination that spells success.

Does anyone remember when Chris Byrd lost all the weight and fought at lightheavy?

Look, was Oscar overtrained? Yes. To the extent that he was this hollow shell and had NOTHING and that's the main reason Pacquao won? Bull-larky! Oscar weighed just 5 lbs more vs Forbes in his last fight . . this is not comparable to a 210 lb Byrd shedding 30 solid lbs in a couple of months to get to 175.
Oscar to me looked fairy similar to the guy that fought Mayweather . . but he was fighting a much more aggressive and frankly better fighter.
Too much work put into the gym or not, he should've been able to win a round vs a guy who won his first major title at 115 lbs!!

[diggity]

That's right hawk & I think Ron interpreted as such. With the right training & guidance he certainly would have had a MUCH better account of himself but I'm not sure even the perfect trainer could have saved him from a loss that night.

[Ron Lipton]

Gentleman, gentleman, All Kudos to Pac man like I said. A brilliant performance and display of hand speed, mastery of range, timing and Southpaw straight lefts and right hooks.

I am saying Oscar DeLahoya was absolutely not on time physically in that ring, flat, listless and feet in cement from no energy. His worst night ever and his weight for him at this stage of his fighting career on the unofficial HBO scale showed only a two pound gain. Bad mistake.

[evander]

The comparison stinks IMO.

Lets be real here and this is what I feared after Pac won; everyone saying how brilliant it was. Pac did what he had to do and was very good, no doubt about it; but let us analyse what he actually faced:

This is what I was afraid of. I watched that fight and I have boxed many times and I have to say; I have never seen such a novice like performance from a so called legend ever. It was beyong deplorable and no amount of excuses can save Oscar. Weight, tactics etc etc. Manny did well and boxed beautiful and all credit to him; but to use this victory over a SHAM Oscar as some barometer to his future success against legitimate welters is IMO misguided. Even Manny himself could not understand why Oscar was so dreadful He clapped his gloves together at one point as if to say 'what the hell is up with you?'

Okay, how can anyone explain a guy getting repeatedly hit in the face with straight lefts. What can explain Oscar's diabolical flat footed approach. He could not even judge simple distance. All this was happening to a man who had all the physical advantages, no matter what HBO reported on the weights; the actual look of both men in the RING told the true story. 4 inches taller and a 5 inch reach advantage. Even excusing him being past it, which I and everyone else knows, I believe a man off the street would have done better. Nothing explains this performance. I am honestly trying to find a reason but I can't. All I can think of is that Oscar simply had a meltdown and was suffering with his vision and balance.

For the last two rds, he couldn't even throw a shot. Manny hit Oscar at will; but were any of the shots hard? I say NO, they were just accumulation shots. He was being hit by a blown up feather. Very strange indeed and IMO this win should really be taken in context. Manny himself was utterly shocked at how poor Oscar was!

Now, to compare a 35 year old Oscar fighting a man who is really two to three weights below him and cowering for the last two rds from Pac's DEVASTATING shots, to a man suffering with Parkinson's is simply absurd. I will give Oscar a pass, because I truly believe Oscar was suffering from some sort of condition the other night. It is the only thing to explain how he actually performed. His 2 lb weight gain in over 24 hrs is really really odd.

Geezzz... Ok , let me say this in plain english so it doesn't get blown out of porportion...again!

FORGET THE PREFIGHT HISTORY STUFF!

Ali was beaten from piller to post for 10rds

delahoya was beaten from pillar to post for 7rds

Nuff said!

THEY WERE SIMILAR ONE SIDED BLOWOUTS.

that's why I compared them.

Oh! And if you have boxed like you say you have...then you would know what drastic weight loss can sometimes do to your body. Oscar's "condition " as you call it, was definately attributed to losing too much weight. His body just couldn't take the strain as it could in his younger yrs. That's why he couldn't replenish within the 24hr time frame before the fight. And that's why he only was able to add two pounds before the fight. Pacquaio looked real good but anyone can look good when you don't have t worry about the incoming. He was basically hitting a heavy bag with legs from the 2rd on.

If you want comparison's...watch these fights , then talk about Delahoya's performance. All these fights were about weight, and were not very competitive or competitive at all, except for the Bowe fight, but it was still a career ruining fight.

C Byrd's last fight( Destroyed at 175)

Ruelas/J.Garcia

Pac/Morales 3

G.Canizales/ R. Sandavol

Golota/Bowe 2