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I understand that Mosley MAY have a better shot at running all night long from Margarito while trying to outbox, but give me a break. Does anyone really want to see that?
Chances are I think Margarito tires him out in the same fashion as Cotto as Mosley has even less to keep Margarito off.
I see Mosley easily outboxing Margritos in the same way that Paul Williams did,
WKS
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Hawk,
In this economy you take what you can get......
Paul Williams did not easily outbox Margarito. He built an early lead and then held for dear life in the late rounds. I would rather see Margarito against Clottey, Berto, Williams 2, and Cotto 2 instead of Mosley.Originally Posted by Wladimir Klitschko Sucks
Rafael, There was an article which appeared in today's New york Daily news by Tim Smith clearly stating Margarito wants no part of Paul Williams, he turned down flatly a chance to fight him.
As A result, Williams is forced to move up to middleweight because many welterweights, and most notably Margarito refused to even negotiate with him. If Margarito is the big , bad, bold guy many here have suggested, and Floyd ran off because he did not want to face Cotto, and now most recent Margarito, why has Margarito run afraid of Williams?
With few welterweights, Paul Williams forced to move up to middleweight
Tuesday, September 23rd 2008, 8:45 PM
Paul Williams is forced to move up to middleweight because no big welterweights want to fight him.
Ask Dan Goossem, the promoter for Paul Williams, and he will tell you that he has scoured the country - the world - to find someone willing to challenge the WBO welterweight champion.
"(Luis) Collazo, (Zab) Judah, (Shane) Mosley, Margarito, (Carlos) Baldomir, you name it, we asked," Goossen said, reciting a virtual Who's Who among welterweights. "It never came down to a matter of money. It was a matter of they just didn't want to get into the ring with Paul. Who blames them, right?"
Instead of waiting for those big-name welterweights, Williams is moving up to test the waters at middleweight, taking on Andy Kolle (17-1, 12 KOs) in a 10-round bout in San Jacinto, Calif., Thursday. Williams will share the card with heavyweight contender Chris Arreola, who takes on Israel Garcia in a 12-round match on Versus at 9 p.m.
Williams (34-1, 25 KOs) and his team arrived at this fight after getting rebuffed by Margarito, whom Williams defeated for the WBO welterweight title in 2007, and by middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik.
"We were looking to fight a big name," Williams said. "If we can't get any big fights at 147, we're like, let's go the other way. What other weight classes can I make?"
Williams is not going to relinquish his welterweight title. Williams believes he can go from 147 to 168 pounds without any problems. The fight with Kolle is the first step toward determining whether Williams, a 6-1 southpaw, can become a modern day Henry Armstrong.
"You could really go down the list of welterweights, super welterweights, and up. But I think the statement that's being made here is two-fold," Goossen said. "One is that Paul understands that the pool of fighters willing to fight him is very limited. He's not the most feared man in boxing for nothing. So rather than sitting back and peeling off two or three HBO dates a year, we're looking to keep Paul busy and to create opportunities."
It is a good strategy. The one weakness - and it's a big one - is the dependence on other talented boxers at those various weight classes to make fights with Williams. Williams survived a tough war with Margarito last year to take away the WBO title. Then in his next fight he lost the title to Carlos Quintana in a lackluster performance. In the rematch Williams destroyed Quintana on a first-round TKO. That experience taught Williams a valuable lesson - never take anyone for granted. So he has a different mind-set going into the fight against Kolle.
"I'm coming to his weight class, so he feels like he's the man in that weight," Williams said. "So I've got to earn his respect, you know what I'm saying? I've got to make him earn my respect. If I get in the ring with him, we're going to have to duke it out."
SHANE'S BACK: Shane Mosley will take on Ricardo Mayorga in a 12-round welterweight match at the Home Depot Center in Carson, Calif., Saturday night on HBO. It would have been nice to see Williams against Mosley, considering both are fighting two days apart and within 150 miles of each other. But as Mosley said, regarding the match with Mayorga, "It is what it is." Mayorga has come up short against every world-class caliber boxer in his prime since he beat Vernon Forrest to win the welterweight title four years ago. Don't expect Mayorga, an awkward free swinger, to play against type against Mosley. ...Pawel Wolak (21-1, 14 KOs), a junior middleweight contender from Brooklyn by way of Poland, will meet Chad Greenleaf (10-10-1, 2 KOs) in a 10-round match at the Huntington (L.I.) Hilton Hotel Friday night.
tsmith@nydailynews.com
Personally, I want to see Williams Margarito II, then Clottey Margarito.
If I had a choice of Cotto Margarito II or Mosley Margarito, I'd prefer Mosley, provided he gets by Mayorga. Over Cotto as Miguel's bout with Marg ended pretty conclusively and I thought Mosley deserved no worse than a Draw with Cotto. So since we saw one already, Mosley would be more interesting.
That said, I don't give him much of a chance to win the fight. Legs don't really move that well. His defense has always been porous. ANd lets face it. He's a pretty spent bullet as it is.
Margarito ko's him inside of 10.
Last edited by hawk5ins; 09-24-2008 at 06:14 PM.
The thing that I see distinct from the Cotto/Margarito fight - At least tactically or in terms of fight planning would be to see if Shane's significant body punching ability could be employed more effectivley against Margarito.
Cotto's body punching - And it's been a good 5 weeks since I watched the fight last, so forgive me if I'm wrong - Was conspicuously absent in between evading Margarito's Jason/Michael Voorhees/The Terminator all rolled into one non-stop forward pressure.
I'm not sure Margarito gives opponents the room to work his body - But It's pretty clear to me that Antonio's chin and punch resistance is almost ungodly for the 147lbs division. What I would be interested in seeing is if Shane could use his speed to score enough heavy body shots to at least take a step away from the unstoppable 3.10 to Tijuana.
God - Fighting Tony must be like fighting inside a plastic bag being hit with baseball bats - Being smothered and battered!
I really want to see Williams fight Margarito as a priority - I don't think his foray into Middleweight is overly wise, but I guess if he wants to prepare for another Margarito fight, taking on a middleweight is good prep...
If that is accurate, it sucks. I'm all against ducking, especially if a good monetary offer was in place. Unlike others on this board, I am not here to defend anyone unconditionally, whether it is Margarito or someone else.
BTW, if Williams is so eager to move up to middle, why did he hold out when Arum made him an offer to face Pavlik a few months ago? I suppose fighting a clubfighter who was creamed by Andre Ward is slightly more appealing, eh?
Last edited by Rafael; 09-25-2008 at 02:05 AM.
Rafael, I am with you when you say you won't defend a guy unconditionally. I would rather see the best fights that can be made. I don't want to get into all the red tape about all of this, but as usual, the public gets cheated.
I've defended Floyd in these threads simply because I feel he has left boxing for reasons other than just outright ducking an opponent. Floyd has taken a page out of the Bernard Hopkins book to me by doing just enough to win a round, or fight, which rubs me the wrong way. I just hate when folks make irresponsible statements speaking about a particular fighter has run him out of the sport. The same statement was made about Sugar Ray Leonard until he faced Hearns in '81. We know what happened there.
To answer your question about Williams facing Pavlik, perhaps he was ducking an opponent as well.
The only things Smith's article contains is a quote from Dan Goossen, Williams' promoter. What do you expect him to say? I would take that with a grain of salt without any other evidence.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/columnists/smith/
Last edited by MarkD; 09-25-2008 at 09:42 PM.
Mark I was talking about how many on this board keep pointing out how Mayweather ran from Cotto, Margarito, Pac, and every fighter people on this board can muster up. The fights we really want to see rarely happen. I don't know or care who is ducking who. This ducking business goes back a thousand years. Jack Johnson was said to have ducked certain black fighters after winning the title, we can talk about this til forever.
The Margarito bandwagon suggest he is a beast and everyone is running from him, well seems like he isn't to anxious to get back in the ring with Paul Williams, the very fighter who defeated him, why is that?
That's cool I understand that. I would like to see that fight again as well. I just wanted to point out that Smith's article itself doesn't really have any kind of proof or revelation about why the fight is not happening...it's just simply Goossen saying he offered a fight to fighters a, b, and c, which you would expect him to say.
point well taken Mark. Let's wait and see what happens in the next few months with these fights, and whether Mayweather sticks his nose into the proceedings. The interesting thing about the welterweight division to me even if these guys don't fight each other, this division is still better and more interesting than the heavyweight division, sad commentary, but true.
Well, Mayweather turned down two career-high offers to fight Margarito (and took paycuts to face easier opponents in both cases). If you'd rather not call that "ducking," fine, but that does not make the avoidance factor go away. It seems to me that the Mayweather squad always finds excuses -unrelated to ducking, of course- for Floyd's avoidance of certain fighters.
Also, out of all of the top welters out there, Margarito (and Quintana if you want to consider him top) is the only one to have faced Williams. I don't believe Mayweather, Cotto, or Mosley ever even entertained the possibility of fighting Williams. In terms of having faced top caliber welters, Margarito has faced Cintron (twice), Williams, Clottey, and Cotto. And Mosley, Mayweather, Mayorga, and Judah all turned down Arum's offers to face Margie. Heck, even Winky Wright turned down a lucrative offer to fight him. So, say what you wish about his not wanting to face Williams again now that he's finally in the position to cash-in on a big win, but Margarito is a guy who has actively tried to make the fights against the top fighters (something we cannot say about Mayweather). As a fan of the sport of boxing (and not a cheerleader for a specific fighter) I find myself more inclined to root for the guys who try to make the good fights (isn't that what all fans want?). In an era in which "name" fighters tiptoe through divisions handpicking opponents as they wish, having a guy consistently trying to make the good fights is really a breath of fresh air.
Whenever I read about Mayweather's turning down Margarito offers to face easier fighters for less money, I immediately think of Larry Holmes and Greg Page.
In that scenario, Holmes was offered, relatively speaking, a pretty low ball insulting (to him) payday from Don King to face then newly appointed #1 contender Greg Page. Holmes asked for more money, was not given it and instead took an offer to face TWO easier fights (Frank and Frazier) both of whihc was for MORE money. Each Fight he got more dough than what was being offered for Page. (Add to this that following the Frank and Frazier fights, Holmes began negotiating for a Mega payday fight with Gerrie Coetzee which ultimately fell through. Holmes Coetzee unification was a much bigger fight than Holmes Page.).
As Much as Larry has been criticized about that move (not facing Page), I simply can NOT imagine the amount of Flack he would recieve from the masses if he turned down the Page fight to face Frank and Frazier for LESS money.
I think the two scenarios are comparable.
Hawk
mosley still has to get by mayorga to get his opportunity to school the robotic margaritos
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Last edited by Antonia Margarita; 09-26-2008 at 01:08 PM.
Rafael, being the ring leader for Margarito's bandwagon, why is Margarito ducking and hiding from Paul Williams? If your boy Margarito was a true champion he would fight or would want to avenge a loss at the hand of Williams. I am not part of anybody's faction, I could care less about any of these fighters but you keep trying to make excuses for Margarito.
Others have said this as well about you liking Margarito, but Rafael get real, Mayweather was well paid for many of his bouts, and the public wasn't clamoring for a Mayweather-Margarito bout.
Margarito just punked out from facing Paul Williams, case closed.
There you go again. Did I say that was specifically offensive to you? Why are you so defensive dude? In my post, I did not attack you in any shape or form, and, on top of this, I was not even addressing you in particular. Yet, you once again feel the need of addressing me aggressively and throwing a bunch of flames my way. I really don't understand your attitude. Look at your post man. That is the kind of stuff ("your boy," "punked out," etc.) you expect to see at low quality boards like ESB or fightbeat. Please read around this board and see how many people actually post in that confrontational style. Why are you so sensitive when it comes to this matter? I honestly don't get it. I thought what I posted was pretty reasonable, and in fact, I was under the impression that we had started to converge on this matter.
Oh well.
I personally believe that being taller with that long reach, the southpaw stance and with his considerable power, Williams presents an incredibly difficult target for Margarito whereas a smaller Cotto would be a more comfortable style.
No doubt. It took Margarito about 6 or 7 rounds to figure Williams out the first time, and when he did, it was already too late to catch up. If they fight again -which I'd love to see- Margarito would have to press the action from the get go to have a better shot at winning. It's no coincidence that none of the top welterweights -including Margarito- seem to want any part of Williams.
silk, Rafael is making opinions just like everyone else did on the thread. Take it easy.
PBF turned down the fight, that is a fact and there is nothing wrong with saying so. I think he would have outboxed the hell out of Margarito but he chose other fights instead. I don't think he was scared of him but it is what it is & he left the scenario up for interpretation. I know the initial offer was huge but quite honestly I dont think it would have panned out to be more money than the other fights he took PPV wise. Given the landscape now, it probably would.
Williams is still a relatively new guy on the block & just avenged his first loss. His matchups will come in due time. There is only so long that you can ignore an 800lb gorilla. I think Margarito will eventually fight Williams again but he apparently is looking to enjoy the wake of his biggest win for a while & he's downright entitled to that.
Diggity I too was only making an opinion, Rafael has been real negative in prior threads towards me, you can look that up. Given this situation at hand, I doubt Mayweather was paid far less than what was said in many of these threads because he turned down the fight with Margarito.
As far as these two fighters meeting, if Mayweather turned down the fight because of money, well he walked away from 20 mil with Delahoya. If Floyd ran away from Margarito because he did not want to fight him, so be it, this is no less than 3 or more threads these conversations arisen about who is ducking who. I think in time Floyd will come back to face these guys and these arguments will prove fruitless.
Rafael has had a hard on for the Margie/PBF topic for like 3 years now.
Margarito ducking Williams? That absurd to be quite honest. So, here's a little boxing knowledge - Williams just fought in California weighing 157 pounds. On his way to 160 perhaps? Williams might have just left the division all together.
With that said, Cotto to this point hasn't ducked anyone, and from the sounds of HBO on Saturday, he'll be taking on Margarito again. My fear is, if he gets beaten that badly again, how much will Cotto have left? And for god sake, I like Shane, PLEASE at the age of 37 keep him OUT of the ring with Margarito. Didn't he learn enough from Winky? Margarito would probably end his career. It would be VERY ugly.
I might get sick saying this... But Margarito will dominate everyone at 147 pounds. He's relentless. The one guy IMO that could get to him, was Cotto. I personally think Cotto realized how easy he was to hit, and instead of chopping him down at the body, he decided to test the chin. Bad idea, obviously. I still think if anyone at 147 beats him, it's Cotto. He's got every tool to do it, but apparently, it's not enough against Antonio.
I think there are a lot of good match ups in the division. Berto is nothing short of amazing, his hand speed and combos are unreal. Dare I say Pacman? Margarito-Cotto 2. And I guess you just never know with Shane!
It's a good time to be such a huge fan of middle/welter weight boxing!
I don't belive a word Dan Goossen says.....
As a fan of Sugar Shane - I have no desire to see Jin cradling his sons in tears post his career worst beating.
I like Berto but I think he gets creamed by the first decent guy he fights who can punch.
berto is a chump
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Seems out of place on this site.
Hawk
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