Can't BELIEVE no one is talking about this

[Husker]

Last night on HBO's BAD, Kermit Cintron takes a shot to the temple, clearly from a punch at the end of the 7th, I think. He thinks its a head butt and takes a knee, accepting the refs count up to eight before arguably rising at ten. The initial decision is a knock out.

Whether he beat the count or the bell rang or whatever is not my problem with this. Apparently, Cintron, his corner and whoever else get the ref to change his mind and the fight continues !

Mr. Lipton especially I'd like to get some feedback from, just hope you take several deep breaths before watching if you haven't seen it. You ain't gonna be pleased.

[Austin]

As bad as the 7th round was, referee Frank Santore stole the decision from Martinez with a point deduction in the last round. Martinez easily won the verdict, only to be robbed twice in the same fight. The work of 3rd men in the last 20 years is deplorable. Although there are still good refs in boxing today, too many become part of the story, by interfering with the fights outcome. Good refs remain out of the picture, while insuring there is a level playing field for both combatants. Kermit Cintron’s comments that he clearly won the fight are amazing.

Austin

[Husker]

I agree with every single word Austin. Insanity across the board last night. Imo, Kermit arguably won four rounds at best. Arguably, realistically he might've taken even less.

[MSM]

Found rounds 7 and 8 on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQzXjMmb7w0

[Dan Gunter]

Oh, man. Horrible.

[Husker]

Oh, man. Horrible.

You ain't understating at all. I truly hope that this was not any casual fans first view of boxing (thereby sending them scurrying away forever) and that this kind of nonsense is something only "we" fanatics have to gnash our teeth over.

[Mike DeLisa]

BTW -- don't you need to be up and able to defend yourself?

Being DOWN means any part of your body other than the soles of your feet on the canvas

Being UP means up and ready to fight.

Am I not correct?

[MSM]

Poor Promotion, Officiating Massacres St. Valentine’s Day

By Jake Donovan

When first assembled, the February 14 HBO Boxing After Dark tripleheader began as the must-see card of 2009, with three solid matchups making for a valid alternative to more traditional Valentine’s Day plans.

By night’s end, the card billed “St. Valentine’s Day Massacre” instead further accentuated everything that is wrong with the sport of boxing.

From revolving opponents, to fighters missing weight, to Florida officials struggling to prove that they’re up on the boxing rules, it was a night to forget at the BankAtlantic Center in Sunrise, Florida.

The show began without a home until less than a month before fight night, a responsibilty of the event's co-promter Don King. It ended with two disputed decisions coming out of the televised tripleheader, headlined by Nate Campbell taking a majority decision over South African challenger Ali Funeka in a bout that saw the former lose his lightweight alphabet titles on the scales for failure to make weight a day prior.

Fighting for the first time in nearly a year, Campbell wound up missing weight by 2 ½ lb. when all was said and done at Friday’s weigh-in. Both camps agreed to go through with the fight, with the belts on the line only for Funeka.

Despite the mishap on the scales, Campbell vowed to still fight as if he were defending his titles. The soon-to-be 37-year old lived up to his promise in the opening round, easily outworking his challenger despite giving away a considerable height and reach advantage.

Funeka changed up in the second, working behind his jab and shooting his right hand when Campbell attempted to mount an attack. It worked well for about two minutes, until Campbell connected with an overhand right that had visibly rocked the South African. Campbell went in for the kill, with another right hand sending Funeka to the canvas for a nine-count.

The round ended with Campbell cut over the right eye and Funeka still on unsteady legs. The tide quickly turned in the third, when Funeka landed a right hand that slightly wobbled the Jacksonville native. Funeka went on the attack, working Campbell’s body and reestablishing his range.

Campbell kept coming forward in the fourth, but only to the tune of ineffective aggression as Funeka cleanly outworked him over the course of the round. More of the same came in the fifth, with Campbell reduced to one punch at a time while Funeka peppered him with jabs and body shots.

What began as a three-point disadvantage for Funeka appeared to completely dissolve as the fight entered the sixth. Funeka found his groove and was the far busier fighter throughout the middle rounds. In addition to his right hand and body shots, the left hook was also landing with regularity.

Action slowed to a crawl in the seventh and eighth rounds, which could’ve went either way depending on a judge’s preference. Campbell was effective in working his way inside, landing to the body more frequently than had been the case in rounds prior, but was still being outworked overall by Funeka.

Round nine was a return to Funeka’s mix of superior workrate and capitalizing on his height and reach advantage, returning to the jab and keeping Campbell on the outside. The attack came at a price, as Funeka slowed down enough in the tenth to allow Campbell to work his way inside, targeting the body. Funeka recovered in the final minute of the round, returning to the jab and also landing left hooks to the body in heeding the advice of trainer and former junior featherweight king Vuyani Bungu.

With the fight and possibly his career on the line, Campbell dug deep in the championship rounds. Both fighters appeared exhausted, but Funeka spent nearly the entire eleventh round moving in reverse. Campbell capitalized on his challenger’s hesitance, rocking him with a right hand to the ear which caused a delayed-reaction knockdown as Funeka tried and failed to clinch in efforts to remain upright. He beat the count, but left the door wide open for Campbell to snatch victory –or at least a tie – from the jaws of defeat.

Whatever Campbell had left, he left it all in the ring in the final round. Funeka spent nearly the entire frame either clinching or with his hands pinned to his head. Campbell dug to the body and sought further success with his overhand right upstairs. Funeka didn’t give him the chance to land anything big, though at the cost of giving away the round and ultimately the fight when all was said and done.

The first score of 113-113 drew a collective chorus of boos from the crowd, with a similar level of protest coming after hearing tallies of 115-111 and 114-112 go in favor of Campbell, who narrowly escapes with his fifth straight win. He improves overall to 33-5-1 (25KO), but loses his belts and his stay at lightweight in the process thanks to the debacle at the scales.

Upon hearing the scores read, Funeka could offer no other reaction than to bow his head and stand in a corner as he was reduced to tears. A 16-fight win streak comes to a close as Funeka’s record moves to 30-2-2 (25KO). He earned the fight with a fourth-round knockout of Zahir Raheem, though it featured a controversial ending of its own, as the final knockout blow came well after the bell.

A controversial, or at least disputable, decision denies him the chance to bring two lightweight title belts back to South Africa, as he instead heads home with disappointing memories of what could’ve been had he not fallen apart down the stretch.

Disappointing is really the only way to describe the televised co-feature, which saw former Antonio Margarito victims Sergio Martinez and Kermit Cintron battle to a majority draw in their 12-round junior middleweight battle.

The boo birds were out early and often, and for very good reason, as little to nothing in the way of action occurred in the first few rounds. Martinez controlled whatever action took place, with Cintron far too content to clinch and hardly fighting with any fluidity whatsoever.

Martinez went into boxing mode in the third and fourth rounds, circling to his left in the southpaw stance, which left him inside of Cintron’s punching range. The tactic goes against conventional wisdom, but it was up to Cintron to do something about it. He did not, which meant more rounds in the bank for Martinez and curiosity among the crowd as to why they’d instead attend a boxing card than spending the evening at home, or out on the town, with the one they love on Valentine’s Day.

Trainer Ronnie Shields, working with Cintron for the second time, expressed disappointment with his charge after four rounds, demanding he get busier on the inside. It didn’t happen; Cintron instead continued with an attack that consisted of one punch at a time and virtually no clue as to how to cut off the ring and slow down the mobile Martinez.

Just as it appeared the fight was heading nowhere fast, things took a dramatic turn at the end of the seventh. Martinez caught Cintron with a straight left hand at center ring, resulting in a delayed knockdown as Cintron was buzzed and forced to take a knee.

Referee Frank Santore began to count, at which point Cintron remained on the canvas and protesting the call, claiming a headbutt occurred. Cintron arose from the canvas as Santore appeared to reach ten and clearly waved off the fight, which sent the fighter into a full protest mode.

Confusion soon followed, with Martinez celebrating what he thought was a knockout victory in one corner, while Team Cintron demanded an immediate overturn in the other. Cintron not only won the argument, but was given 2 ½ minutes to recover from the knockdown, as Santore offered some half-assed excuse as to why the fight should be allowed to continue.

Action resumed in the eighth, with both fighters re-energized. Cintron had a better round than most to that point, but went into the final four rounds with a cut over his left eye and atop his forehead, and seemingly in a deep hole on the scorecards. However, it was a late point deduction from Martinez in the twelfth and final round that saved Cintron from suffering his third loss.

The disappointing fight ended with an even more disappointing decision. Martinez won on one card by a margin of 116-110, but the scores were overruled by matching cards of 113-113.

Martinez remains unbeaten in his last 29 fights in having to settle for the draw, as his record now moves to 44-1-2 (27KO). The lone loss came nine years ago at the hands of Margarito, scoring an early knockdown but was eventually stopped in seven rounds.

Margarito is also responsible for the lone two losses on Cintron’s ledger, though the Puerto Rican had been quite vocal in recent weeks in the wake of the hand wrap scandal that came in his conqueror’s failed January 24 bid against “Sugar” Shane Mosley.

Considering the amount of excuses he offered for the past defeats, Cintron never came close to redeeming himself in the ring, with the fortunate draw verdict sending his record to 30-2-1 (27KO). He has now been involved in two straight fights that were less than action packed, this coming on the heels of his 12-round stinker with Lovemore N’Dou last November.

Stinker is a word that will most likely never describe any fight involving Alfredo Angulo. The undefeated junior middleweight prospect kicked off the party with a five round thrashing of late replacement Cosme Rivera.

Things became very interesting in the early going. A clash of heads left Angulo with a cut outside of his right eye. The referee missed out on this detail, instead ruling the nick a result of a punch, which meant that Angulo was forced to fight or else be declared a TKO loser.

Angulo chose the former, which was very bad news for Rivera. The former welterweight title challenger had his moments, including his right uppercut which landed several times from the outside. It was otherwise all Angulo, who picked up the pace and took over for good in the second round, never looking back.

Rivera was rocked several times and all but out on his feet midway through the third, only for the referee to allow the fight to continue. Angulo stalked as Rivera could manage no more than a few clinches whenever he needed to clear his head.

The onslaught continued in the fourth and fifth, though there were several moments in which the fight could’ve been stopped. It took for a member of the Florida Boxing Commission to do what the referee and Rivera’s corner failed to do – intervene on behalf of the safety of the fighter.

The official time was 2:38 of round five.

Angulo improves to 15-0 (12KO) with the win. The California-based Mexican banger has now scored 11 straight stoppages, with his last three airing live on HBO’s Boxing After Dark.

Rivera’s career continues to head in the opposite direction. The loss puts him at 1-3-1NC in his last five, as he dips overall to 31-12-2 (22KO). Rivera was a very late replacement for Danny Perez, who pulled out of the fight earlier this week. Perez himself was a late replacement for Ricardo Mayorga, who may or may not have suffered a valid injury while in training camp for this fight.

The show was presented by Gary Shaw Productions and Don King Productions, in association with DiBella Entertainment.

From: http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&o...table&id=18430

[hagler04]

I might have to look at it again, but Cintron to me looked to be up at 9.

But there's NO excuse for those scores, the point deduction, and for the ref somehow ending/not ending the fight in the 7th, make a decision and stick to it, it was amateur hour all around. I respect Cintron as I do all fighters for competing near the top in a very tough sport and showing the balls to fight in the ring, but it's clear to me he doesn't have championship level grit, he mentally crumbles when things don't go his way.

I scored the main event for Campbell . . .I could see the argument for a draw, but I think you'd have to really stretch it to come up with a scorecard for Funeka, despite his valient effort.

[MSM]

Not the best clip, but here's round 12 with the point deduction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZX83lf3vvM

[Dan Gunter]

Maybe the ref made a mistake in calling the fight over at the end of the seventh. I don't think so. Cintron made it up at 9, but he was not ready to continue.

In any event, having declared the fight over, the ref made an incredible error in judgment in overruling himself and allowing the fight to start again.

By the way, it looks to me as though the shot that sent Cintron down was a straight left to the chin.

I usually do not complain about discretionary calls by referees. But at some point, a referee can abuse his (or, quite unlikely, her) discretion. And this ref abused his discretion.

[Mike DeLisa]

Cintron did not beat the count -- he was still down at ten: Here is Florida's rule:

. A participant shall be considered to be knocked down when:
(I) Any part of his body, other than his feet, is on the floor;
(II) He is hanging helplessly over the ropes;
(III) He is rising from a down position; or
(IV) At the conclusion of a round in a match, he leaves the ring and fails to be in the ring when the bell sounds indicating the beginning of the next round.


So, as i recalled, a fighter is considered down when he is rising from a down position! I beleive that is the rule in every state. You are down when anything other than the soles of your feet are on the canvas. BUT you are still considered DOWN if you are getting up. The opposite of down is not up. You gotta get fully up before the ten count.

[Crold1]

That fight was a lot of BS. The ref seemed intimidated by Cintron's outburst.

[Mike DeLisa]

MOREOVER -- check out the shot circa 2:12 or 2:11 of round 12 -- Cintron FOULS by ducking his head below his opponent's waist as a defensive move.

Can't anybody here ref this game?

[Husker]

Mike-In a word: NO.

Nice catch with the Florida rules, btw. Never knew about that rising position one.

Cliff- I agree. Even nodded affirmatively as I read it. (Yes, I am that much of a screaming dork.)

[Ron Lipton]

Last night on HBO's BAD, Kermit Cintron takes a shot to the temple, clearly from a punch at the end of the 7th, I think. He thinks its a head butt and takes a knee, accepting the refs count up to eight before arguably rising at ten. The initial decision is a knock out.

Whether he beat the count or the bell rang or whatever is not my problem with this. Apparently, Cintron, his corner and whoever else get the ref to change his mind and the fight continues !

Mr. Lipton especially I'd like to get some feedback from, just hope you take several deep breaths before watching if you haven't seen it. You ain't gonna be pleased.

I am going to watch this bout tonight mate and get back to you on this issue.

Ron

[Ron Lipton]

MOREOVER -- check out the shot circa 2:12 or 2:11 of round 12 -- Cintron FOULS by ducking his head below his opponent's waist as a defensive move.

Can't anybody here ref this game?

Reply: Yes, a client of yours named Ron Lipton can if only given the chance again. (Smile)

[Ron Lipton]

Cintron did not beat the count -- he was still down at ten: Here is Florida's rule:

. A participant shall be considered to be knocked down when:
(I) Any part of his body, other than his feet, is on the floor;
(II) He is hanging helplessly over the ropes;
(III) He is rising from a down position; or
(IV) At the conclusion of a round in a match, he leaves the ring and fails to be in the ring when the bell sounds indicating the beginning of the next round.


So, as i recalled, a fighter is considered down when he is rising from a down position! I beleive that is the rule in every state. You are down when anything other than the soles of your feet are on the canvas. BUT you are still considered DOWN if you are getting up. The opposite of down is not up. You gotta get fully up before the ten count.

Reply: Abso f..ki.g lootley

[Husker]

Ron: part of me doesn't want you to, especially knowing how pissed off you are absolutely going to be, magnified even greater by your situation. But I'm selfish, you're the only referee I "know" and I just gotta know.

Just be prepared, I went ballistic, shut the main event off at the end of three even. And I've never been anything more than a fan.

[TDKO]

Respectfully.......

Wouldn't these rules mean Buster Douglas was knocked out in the 8th round
vs Tyson since he clearly was on the rise at ten?

[Petey]

Maybe I don't miss HBO that much...

Ref appears:

- Slow. I counted to 11. You know count 1...wave to neutral...pick-up count. He's saying five when I'm counting six or so.

- To be a pussy! To be brow beat like that, he must've left his cajones at home.

The ref clearly counted to 10, fight was ruled over, bell rang. What a rip-off.

[Dan Gunter]

Under the Florida rules, Cintron was down even at the ref's slow count of ten.

[Ron Lipton]

Ron: part of me doesn't want you to, especially knowing how pissed off you are absolutely going to be, magnified even greater by your situation. But I'm selfish, you're the only referee I "know" and I just gotta know.

Just be prepared, I went ballistic, shut the main event off at the end of three even. And I've never been anything more than a fan.

Reply: I saw it last night and it reallly upset me, so much that I had to shut off the TV to calm down ONLY as a boxing fan. I met the ref Frank before long ago at boxing conventions and he is a nice man as most of them are.

HE STOPPED THE FIGHT, HE RULED ON WORLD WIDE TELEVISION THE FIGHT WAS OVER, THE FIGHT WAS OVER. NOTHING SHOULD CHANGE THAT.
CINTRON CLEARLY HAD THE COUNT OF EIGHT, NINE, TEN IN FRONT OF HIS FACE AND HE WAS STILL IN A HALF TO 3/4 SQUAT POSITION AND NOT FULLY RISEN WHEN THE REFEREE COUNTED HIM O.U.T.

Whether his knees were locked in full standing position or slightly bent THE REFEREE COUNTED HIM OUT AND STOPPED THE FIGHT. If a fighter is up at 10and wobbles like Lennox Lewis did when McCall took him out, if the ref stops the fight THE FIGHT IS OVER. IT CANNOT CONTINUE, AS A RULING WAS MADE THAT IT WAS OVER.

As to Max Kellerman, Lennox Lewis and the others, let them ALWAYS turn to Harold Ledderman for an answer PLEASE, as he almost always gets these things closest to the truth. HAROLD and I have been close to pro boxing since the 60's. THERE IS NO CONFUSION WHY MAKE ANY?

My outrage year after year comes from the comments made on the air and how fast the situation becomes more muddled from the men calling the show at ringside when something like this happens.

I have respectfully asked Ross Greenberg many times through the centuries, through Harold Ledderman and others to please bring me on there to give an expert boxing and referee opinion as Harold does on scoring, as to the refereeing in these major fights.

The great Lennox Lewis and the most capable and intelligent Max Kellerman both kept getting certain points wrong, over and over again on this issue.

Then the other commentator threw in the additional question, can he be counted out after the bell comment and the more time went on the more bizzare the comments became which were not steeped in fact.

OF COURSE HE CAN BE COUNTED OUT AFTER THE BELL BUT THAT IS NOT THIS SCENARIO. THE SITUATION IS, He went down, received a good clear count complete with fingers in front of his face, and like JERRY QUARRY DID AGAINST CHUVALO, got up too slow and did NOT MAKE IT. HE DID NOT MAKE IT IN THE REFEREES OPINION BEFORE 10, END OF THE BLOODY STORY!

For example, Max kept saying Cintron's glove was off the canvas so he could not be counted out because he was arising and his feet were on the canvas.

In the name of God, it is as if the definition of a "Knockdown" itself got thrown into the mix. Then they started talking about if any part of your body other than your feet is still on the canvas then that is a knockdown but HEY he was getting up and his glove was off the canvas blah, blah blah.

It reminded me of the total chaos at ringside, the confusion, the lack of seeing what actually happened in the DLH V Leija fight I refereed on HBO.

They missed the fighter saying he quit, they missed the chief second Giachetti climbing onto the ring apron and asking the fight be stopped.

JUST CALM DOWN GENTS, There is no confusion. It is very simple.

You have to get up before 10. If the referee decides you DID NOT, then you are counted out.

If you reach your feet before 10 and your penis is still touching the canvas if you are that lucky, you are still out if the ref counts you out.

If you reach your feet and the referee stops the fight for whatever reason he wants, as to your ability to continue THE FIGHT IS OVER.

What is all this confusing boxing lore thorwn into the analysis for, for what reason.???? He was knocked down, there was no head butt the referee saw, he was counted out, he did not fully get up IN THE REFEREES OPINION THAT IS and THE FIGHT WAS STOPPED.

Now we go into the worst fiasco since the Abraham V Mirand I fight handled by Randy Neuman in Germany. A referee should never acquiesce to the corners, the crowd or the Commission members during the fight.

Randy Gordon, who had the best knowledge of these things of all the Commissioners, would ALWAYS let the ref make the decision and stick by that. Why? Because no one but the most qualified referees should be trusted with these important matters and once they are, the die is cast.

The referee is in charge, not the crowd, not the loud mouthed cornerman, not the press, the referee.

THIS FIGHT NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO CONTINUE ONCE IT WAS STOPPED.

Remeber in the Holyfield V Tyson II ear biting fight, the camera caught Mills Lane saying, "YOU'RE THROUGH," to Tyson, it was officially stopped.

Then my good friend and a man I respect to this day, Marc Ratner, came up on the apron and said to Mills, hinting the big crowed wanted more, "You sure,?" Mills picked up on his bosses desire and changed his mind and let it go some more. I understand but it was stopped by him and he changed his mind, but not as visibly as Frank Santore did in this fight.

I am sorry for Frank but he NEVER should have gone back on his correct ruling. It turned out to be a very bad mistake and a referee nightmare of folding under pressure.

The most capable and enjoyable HBO crew who I respect very much, has got to get a referee's opinion on these things and have it ready. I only wish Ross would give me a chance as not just a referee but a boxing historian and former fighter who knows much much more than any other active or former referee, instead of a less experienced boxing person.

Very upsetting to watch, as much so as some other recent fiascos including the ultimate one of late where the fighter was left on the canvas bleeding and unattended while Joe Cortez went for a little walk to talk things over while the guy just lay there.

Why am I not surprised at this, because if a referee has a long history of fouling up, injuring fighters and even a death in Mercante Jr's case, they still let them referee the big fights out of political friendship. Worst case ever, Tony Perez and Mercante Jr. Now there are more.

[wildhawke11]

The problem is Ron as we all know, its not always what you know, but who you know that gets you the job. You know this better then anyone when it comes to the fight game.

[Wladimir Klitschko Sucks]

WKS

[DscribeDC]

I was kind of shocked by this and awaited Ron's take also.

In a sport where any and every screwy outcome has happened at one time or another, this was a new one on me.

My opinion was that the ref, right or wrong, always has the last word. When Santore waved it off, it was over, even if Cintron was up and doing jumping jacks.

The fight should never have been restarted because of Cintron's jawing.

[Mike DeLisa]

BTW -- Santore's actions were not unique. Every once in a while a ref changes his mind.

Tommy Loughran was stopped on cuts by Ray Impellitere -- Loughran jumped up and down and screamed until the bout was resumed.

Referee Johnny Martin counted out Unknown Winston against Jack Sharkey. In that case the crowd was unhappy so Martin let them restart.

Also, MIke Ayala was counted out in his bout with Little Red Lopez by Carlos Padilla, who then let the bout continue.

So, although not excusable, it has happened before.

[Ron Lipton]

If anyone can put up a link to view that Lopez v Ayala fiasco, I would love to see that one.

Ron

[prodigious1]

Ron: what do you think about instant replay in boxing? Really, a ref shouldn't need it for a count, but what about for cuts? Or late punches?

[MSM]

If anyone can put up a link to view that Lopez v Ayala fiasco, I would love to see that one.

Ron

Round 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BlwXkGV988
Rounds 2 - 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOKeAfXMC4
Round 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBJjqmTZCM4
Rounds 6 & 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB9qG1eDh34
Rounds 8 & 9: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaIqgWOPorg
Rounds 10 - 12: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUWesOwQGfM (The knockdown happens at 4.18 into this video)
Rounds 13 & 14: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu7yFP4OtGs
Round 15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7W5km1fR78